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The Cowclops Transfers (a.k.a. the PCM audio DVD's, Row47 set) Info and Feedback Thread (Released) — Page 4

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Hey Daniel, don't tell me you actually want someone to do an edit and change things now?

I understand that laserdisc footage can only look so good, my point in the other post is that on a large screen the laserdiscs look a *lot* better than the current bootlegs out there, that's what got me motivated into doing this stuff in the first place.
The ultimate goal for me is to have something that is indistinguishable from the laserdiscs picture quality wise, with the colour and glitches on the laserdisc repaired. Also to be able to effectively give people the quality of playback that you would get from an exceptional laserdisc player, without them having to go get one. i.e. To have something that won't degrade, that actually looks a little better than the laserdisc, and can be played on standard equipment without having to flip the damn disks
Your set will effectively give people access to the image quality from the legendary '97 player, far better than what most people would get out of their standard players!
Whether it can be achieved is another matter, but hey - we all love a challenge. Anything that is an improvement on the current bootleg sets will be welcomed with open arms.
Some screenshots would be great!
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Imagine me as "Geek Boy" w/ "L" on forehead.

Laserman,

I'm SO paranoid that nobody will give me a copy of any of the COOL stuff going on here.

Especially because all I have for internet connection is STUPID dial-up

So hopefully if I ask politely enough people (rolling dice) I'll get what I want. (a GREAT Transfer and a de-SE'd DVD) :nerd:

One more thing the Commercial version of the 6th Gen Panny PDP doesn't have the auto-contrast-thingy you talked about (or is it contrast-auto-thingy = CAT's). My old 65" Mit's RPTV did, but not the commercial Panny.
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I think Daniel is not the same person as DanielB.

Moll.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Oh NO, I am not DanielB.

I wanted to come here and CHEW HIS BUTT OFF for almost chasing away some of the cool people on this board (the f-ing JERK!!!), but I don't have time to follow this stuff as closely as I wanted.

Now I get what you are saying Laserman...NO, I am NOT DanielB.

I say EDIT AWAY!!! MORE POWER TO THE COOL PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD AND IGNORE THE OTHER LOSER!!!
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Using one of the top end Japanese models would be ideal, but they are nearly impossible to find and extremely expensive even if you can find one. As it is, I paid about $800 for a pristine condition CLD 97 and I feel it will be more than sufficient for this project. I don't think you will ever be able to be 100% to the source material, but 99.8% is fine. Unless you're willing to buy a high end LD player, the LDs and change discs twice during the film, this is the best we'll get.
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Originally posted by: TR47 I don't think you will ever be able to be 100% to the source material, but 99.8% is fine. Unless you're willing to buy a high end LD player, the LDs and change discs twice during the film, this is the best we'll get.

You cant say it any better. And all this focus on the video leads me to beleive the audio (was/will be) captured with an sb live with generic cables?! please, can some1 give more specifics on how the audio (is/will be) handled?
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For some reason unbeknownst to me, everybody seems to "prefer" the audio of the original version I made to the audio on the discs everyone else has made. Why, I don't know. Perhaps other people are clipping the audio during their recordings, perhaps they're just using cheap crappy sound cards. I think the main reason nobody is talking about the audio is because audio is the easy part.

The very fact that you'd suggest "generic" cables would be somehow detrimental to the signal would lead me to believe that you wouldn't be satisfied even if Tom Holman (the TH in THX) personally showed up and approved the work. While I don't USUALLY like to throw around credentials as some kind of excuse to say whatever crap I feel like, as an electrical engineer that is into audio and video stuff, I can definitely say that only extremely poorly designed cables will be detrimental to the sound. I am using non-specific cables (well, for the audio anyway). http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm has some more info on amplifier->speaker wiring, and while not all of that directly applies to line level connections, the basic theory is the same. Anything of sufficient guage for the signal you're putting through it will be ok. Just don't run the cables next to the power wires and oyu're all set.

If anyone cares, I built my own s-video "cable" by way of building a couple s-video to dual f-connector breakout cables, and then I ran that over separate RG6 cabling, so thats how I hooked the LD player up.

Since you did ask the otherwise fair question "how exactly was it done" i'll just say that I hooked the analog outputs of the CLD-97 to the line in on my Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, recorded at 48khz, and made sure it was close to full level without actually clipping.

Basically, if you didn't find a problem with the audio in the first set, you won't find a problem with the audio in this set either. The analog in on a TBSC has to be at least as good as the analog in on a sony TR7000 digital8 camcorder. Even if it is a more "technically accurate" manner of recording, syncing a digital rip of the audio to the video would be far more of a pain in the ass and imperfect sync will be more of a bother than the quality lost due to going analog to digital to analog (since it has to be resampled ANYWAY, why not just let the ADC on the sound card do it in the process of recording?)

Last bit of info... I checked the brightness, contrast, and color of the set on a crappy directview CRT, and it seems to be as good as I hoped. The color saturation will be FAR better this time around. If you look at the original set, the title scroll in each movie is very pale whitish/yellowish. This time, every color that should be saturated IS saturated, rather than over or under. The title scrolls are unmistakably yellow. Red is red, green is green, blue is blue. Skin tones aren't weird purplish crap, but actual human looking. Lightsabers look considerably better than they do even in the SE DVD release. What it comes down to is, it looks good on my monitor (which I'd like to say is well calibrated, but I don't want to assume its 100% perfect) and it looks good on a TV, and i'll test it on my Panasonic AE700 projector that should be arriving this thursday. If it looks good on all 3 devices, then the main movie video is definitely done. If I don't like it, I'll recapture the entire movie again and tweak it. I don't have enough space to store all ~7 hours of video on my hard drive in huffyuv format, but capturing it again isn't that much of a problem compared to hte length of time it takes to compress it properly. Nonetheless, I like what I've seen so far, so I BET it should be good.

Thats all for now.

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Originally posted by: Cowclops

Basically, if you didn't find a problem with the audio in the first set, you won't find a problem with the audio in this set either. The analog in on a TBSC has to be at least as good as the analog in on a sony TR7000 digital8 camcorder. Even if it is a more "technically accurate" manner of recording, syncing a digital rip of the audio to the video would be far more of a pain in the ass and imperfect sync will be more of a bother than the quality lost due to going analog to digital to analog (since it has to be resampled ANYWAY, why not just let the ADC on the sound card do it in the process of recording?)


Cowclops,
At least one forum member has reported slight clipping in the first set.
Look for a post by drjimmy526 on October 8 in the Zion thread.
I replied (also October 8) asking Zion if he planned to capture analog or rip the PCM.
Thanks to your post (and Google confirmation) I now realize a PCM rip isn't quite the panacea I first thought.
LaserDisc PCM is sampled at the Red Book rate of 44.1kHz while DVD PCM is 48kHz,
so it would have to be re-sampled as you have stated above. Thanks for pointing that out.

Thanks also for the wiring link. I too was an EE student (although I never worked in the field after graduation)
who never bought into the name-brand cable hoopla.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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"Most of the reason the first versoin came out so good is because I tweaked the video as LITTLE as possible..."

Absolutely agreed with you on that point - I want the video as untouched as possible. I prefer frame-by-frame fixes over a "big paint brush" approach.

"that last time I used a Pioneer CLD-59 and a DV camcorder. Since then, I've figured out how to keep the video in sync with a cheap consumer TV capture card"

LOL. Me too. So many coincidences.

"If you apply heavy noise reduction, then of course you can compress the image more - you are effectively 'posterising' the image, so creating larger areas of block colour"

Which is why you didn't like my last transfer.

"zero sparkle artifacts"

Which I spent months removing from the first third of my transfer. God, am I looking forward to getting those X0 files.

"First off, these are LASERDISC copies.. they can only look as good as the source,"

uhm...color-correction?

"syncing a digital rip of the audio to the video would be far more of a pain in the ass and imperfect sync will be more of a bother"

It was tedious work, but Vegas makes this fairly painless. I was able to line up the audio under the video, and adjust the playback rate in small increments until they were synced. The best way was to copy the video and analog audio together so that they were already synced, and then overlay the digital audio onto the analog. Once they were in sync, I removed the analog audio.

"I now realize a PCM rip isn't quite the panacea I first thought.
LaserDisc PCM is sampled at the Red Book rate of 44.1kHz while DVD PCM is 48kHz,
so it would have to be re-sampled as you have stated above. Thanks for pointing that out."

I captured the digital PCM track (my soundcard has digital optical/coaxial input/outputs), and changed the rate digitally when I compiled the MPEG. I had this version on my DVD, as well as a 5.1 version derived from this recording.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Are there screenshots available yet for the new TR47 sponsored version?
I would love to see some shots of the same scenes as on my site to see how I am tracking. All the screenshots form other projects have been invaluable in making sure I am not missing anything in the captures. Mainly interested in the raw captures if at all possible.

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Hi everyone.. Quite new to the forum and have been lurking for quite some time to get a feel for the board.
I am not sure if it is here or somewhere else i should post but this seems asw good a spot as any.
To preserve the films maybe we could set up something akin to the MAME project that is trying to save
all the old arcade games by having a community of burners who would be willing to make copies for just
the bare bones costs or just receive DVDS and send them back filled. Anyways just a thought.

I'll lurk some more but this board is so far my favorite with somethingawful.. learn new stuff everyday here.
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Originally posted by: Stuckmiru
Hi everyone.. Quite new to the forum and have been lurking for quite some time to get a feel for the board.
I am not sure if it is here or somewhere else i should post but this seems asw good a spot as any.
To preserve the films maybe we could set up something akin to the MAME project that is trying to save
all the old arcade games by having a community of burners who would be willing to make copies for just
the bare bones costs or just receive DVDS and send them back filled. Anyways just a thought.

I'll lurk some more but this board is so far my favorite with somethingawful.. learn new stuff everyday here.



Stuckmiru - WELCOME to the boards!!!

Well, we're not allowed to post direct links to torrents of the DVD's (I posted them on myspleen.com) or offer them for sale per se (from time to time I accept donations) and MANY offer the "B/P = blanks+postage" still you just need to dig around

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

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Originally posted by: Stuckmiru
Hi everyone.. Quite new to the forum and have been lurking for quite some time to get a feel for the board.
I am not sure if it is here or somewhere else i should post but this seems asw good a spot as any.
To preserve the films maybe we could set up something akin to the MAME project that is trying to save
all the old arcade games by having a community of burners who would be willing to make copies for just
the bare bones costs or just receive DVDS and send them back filled. Anyways just a thought.

I'll lurk some more but this board is so far my favorite with somethingawful.. learn new stuff everyday here. Lots of people are using the torrents now, that's fine. If people want to get burns sent to them they only need to ask around a bit in PM's, and they'll find sources. It's really not too concerning how people are getting them, so long as they know they do have access to them. Perhaps Jay could create an official distribution thread and allow discussion of "selling" discs there...

Cowclops, thanks for posting on this forum. I guess I haven't entered this thread in while... it is interesting to hear your thoughts. I still believe that a non-anamorphic preservation is in the best interest given the source material.Originally posted by: Laserman
With DVD9 blanks being cheaper than purchasing a movie, I don't see the point in going DVD5... Are people here really so cheap that they won't shell out 10 bucks for an excellent copy of any of the OT movies in the best possible quality? Or is it that Dual Layer sets would be less profitable for a seller?
I think it's a number of reasons. For what it's worth if there is enough interest I'd be more than happy to get a DL burner to supply discs to others. But reasons for preferring single layer DVD-R... it's cheap, very reliable (DL media will probably skip and pause more), and the fact most people with a DVD burner have single layer burners and probably don't want to get a new burner just to burn SW, and the torrent file will be twice as big to download, and if they don't like that it'll be much more expensive to buy one from a seller. Any sellers who sell the sets for profit, and not in the interests of film preservation shouldn't be here.
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If you crop and slow down a PAL transfer you will probably get close to the resolution you would want for anamorphic NTSC...

Moll.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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PAL (non-anamorphic) resolution is roughly half way between non-anamorphic and anamorphic NTSC res. The speedup is not an issue because the disc can be encoded as film, which means when played back on compatible devices (like a computer) it can play at 24fps - the correct speed.
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Here was the data I was working from (all values rounded):

NTSC video: 480 lines
PAL video: 576 lines
Cropped 2.35:1 NTSC non-anamorphic video: 272 lines
16:9 video optimum resolution for width of 704 pixels: 400 lines
2.35:1 video optimum resolution for width of 704 pixels: 300 lines
16:9 video anamorphic encode resolution: 480 lines
300/400 of 480: 360 (Target number of scanlines for Anamorphic 2.35:1)
272/480 of 576: 326 (Computed number of scanlines for PAL 2.35:1)

It may even be possible to fudge a bit, since, watching 704x480 instead of 640x480 doesn't look too noticeably distorted, neither would perhaps 704x326 instead of 704x360.

Moll.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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You don't want to be watching a squashed or stretched picture. Converting from PAL to NTSC offers no real benefit. If you were going to convert a PAL source to NTSC (ick) then you'd want to increase the resolution to anamorphic NTSC.
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Just a small update-I am getting beta copies (ones without menus) of the new set tomorrow, and will post some caps and a short comparison with the previous set after I watch the new versions.
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Originally posted by: TR47
Just a small update-I am getting beta copies (ones without menus) of the new set tomorrow, and will post some caps and a short comparison with the previous set after I watch the new versions.
Sounds good.
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Ok, I have had a chance to look over the new discs, and I have to say it is a definate improvement. The greenish/blue tinge is gone and the color is more correct, the audio sounds noticeably better and not overdriven, and there is somewhat less noise and more detail evident. It isn't a huge jump in quality as the previous set was already great, but this version fixes the small problems like the gap in the Leia welding scene, the red shift caused by DV sampling, and other flaws. Skin tones are more orange than red now, but this was unavoidable from what I was told, but they still look good. I have posted a shot below, it isn't great but is a start for now. The black levels on the new set are actually less deep, but this allows more of the black detail to show through instead of looking like false contrast. If you look at the gun in the background you can see what I mean-the effect is more pronounced in other scenes. I turned the brightness down slightly on my TV and then it looked correct. The stars in the opening crawl are now clearly visible, whereas they were almost nonexistent in the prior set. The set is not finished so please do not ask me how to obtain them yet. Here are the stats on the new set:

Captured with a CLD 97 onto a PC
Compressed with CCE
Anamorphic 2.35:1 aspect
2 audio tracks-1536k PCM Stereo surround & commentary
Motion menus with scene selection (forthcoming)


NEW SET
http://img226.exs.cx/img226/7640/leia4oc.jpg
OLD SET
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Will there be a higher bit rate?

The previous version had some bad compression artifacts.

Dr. M

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I have a dual-layer version of the video on my hard drive, but I'm not sure where everbody keeps getting this whole "its way too compressed" business. The Q Level (Which isn't an opinion of quality but an absolute statement of deviation from the source frame) is less than 3 in both versions. Most Hollywood DVDs aren't even compressed this perfectly (but thats because they have detail that makes it harder to compress anyway).

The dual layer version exists but as I've stressed at least 5 times before and can't believe i'm saying it a 6th time... THE COMPRESSION IS NOT THE ISSUE.
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I wish I hadn't deleted my copy of ESB from my hard drive or I'd get you a screen shot.

It's most notable in darker scenes. For example when Luke first walks in to find Vader in Cloud City, look at the red lighting on the steps.
You can see gradients in the color. (Distinct bands going from light to dark as you move out from the light source).

If it isn't from the compression, then there was something wrong with your capture.

I'm no expert, it's just what my eyes see.

Dr. M

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I believe this is an artifact caused by the DV format capture, not the encoder-but I will let Cowclops field this. The new set does not have capture issues.