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The Clone Wars: Season V

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 (Edited)

 

If you're not caught up on this yet, or you haven't even started, then you need to start/catch up now.

Because season five is going to be awesome.

 

I haven't nerded out over Star Wars this much in a long time, and it is sorely needed after that god-awful Star Wars: Detours news. THIS is how Star Wars is supposed to be. Dayum, dayum, DAYUM.

 

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

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Yippie-ki-yay, Mr. Falcon.

“I am a writer. Therefore, I am not sane.”

― Edgar Allan Poe

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Looks amazing.

Since they're like poetry, what with the rhyming and all, I find that I only need to watch three out of the six films.

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I'm not crazy about the new time. I mean Sat. at 9:30 am? I'll be still sleeping by then and I'm a guy who likes to catch the first showing.

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Yeah... but I guess that's what DVRs are for.

I assume the show getting darker is the reason for the pushback, but I hope it doesn't destroy the ratings.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

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Putting it on so early because the show is getting darker makes not a lick of sense. They were airing reruns on Adult Swim for a while a couple years back.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Oh. Uh. I thought it was on earlier prior to the change...

 

I don't have a TV so I have to wait until they're online, so I really had no clue when it aired.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

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Ever since they made Boba Fett not a Mandalorian and were talking bringing Maul back alive i lost interest completely in the series.

Mauls Brother and Maul being Male Dathomir Nightsisters was idiotic, the back-story on mauls race in the Kotor games completely disregarded.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Meh. More proof that SW is going down hill. They're trying to patch up flaws in the PT by retrofitting the Saga in the TV shows:

1) The return of Darth Maul. Sure, DM was underutilized in the PT. But resurrecting him only makes things worse.

2) Introducing the Mandalorians now only underlines that they should have been a major antagonist in the PT to begin with, and that the whole "Boba Fett is a Clone" is not well thought out.

3) The Emperor should never, ever have a lightsaber. Let alone two. Yuck!! That image alone is enough for me to not touch the season with a pair of pliers.

4) Having Anakin be angrier only serves to underline the imcompetence of the Jedi even more. I mean, how many hints to those guys need to pick up the fact that he's got issues and need some frikking therapy already!

In short - no, this is not what SW should be.

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Give them some points for trying to fix things at least?

Palpy isn't Emperor yet...

The Mandalorians were introduced in the series quite some time ago.

Being the "Chosen One" means getting a lot of slack from your fellow Jedi sometimes. Making Anakin believe Obi Wan was dead, (as part of a covert op last season) certainly didn't help any in the anger management department.

Anakin has been on slippery slope throughout the course of the series. The moment he force choked a tight lipped prisoner to extract desperately needed information, was a more subtle and believable start of his descent for me.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Is this the final season, or will the continue making them till the banthas come home?

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skyjedi2005 said:


Male Dathomir Nightsisters


This sounds so funny.

“I am a writer. Therefore, I am not sane.”

― Edgar Allan Poe

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danaan said:

Meh. More proof that SW is going down hill. They're trying to patch up flaws in the PT by retrofitting the Saga in the TV shows:

1) The return of Darth Maul. Sure, DM was underutilized in the PT. But resurrecting him only makes things worse.

2) Introducing the Mandalorians now only underlines that they should have been a major antagonist in the PT to begin with, and that the whole "Boba Fett is a Clone" is not well thought out.

3) The Emperor should never, ever have a lightsaber. Let alone two. Yuck!! That image alone is enough for me to not touch the season with a pair of pliers.

4) Having Anakin be angrier only serves to underline the imcompetence of the Jedi even more. I mean, how many hints to those guys need to pick up the fact that he's got issues and need some frikking therapy already!

In short - no, this is not what SW should be.

How exactly does fixing the flaws make Star Wars as a whole worse?  And even if they were fixes for the worse, ala Greedo, I would hardly call that proof.

1.  He had no character whatsoever in TPM, how does bringing him back and giving him an actual identity make things worse.  Furthermore, he wasn't resurrected, he never died to start with.

2.  How does introducing a secondary set of villains prove that they should have been in the movies.  That's like saying that having the Black Sun appear as villains in Shadows of the Empire proves that they should have been in Empire Strikes Back.

3.  First, the idea of whether the Emperor should or should not have a light-saber is entirely a mater of opinion, not forgone fact (same thing with Yoda BTW).  But even if that weren't up for debate, how exactly is the Emperor going to defend himself against two attackers simultaneously both of whom are wielding double bladed lightsabers with only one lightsaber.  He needs two so he can block two simultaneous attacks.

4.  Having Anakin become angry slowly as the show progresses helps make his fall to the dark side more believable than simply going all at once.  Anakin has had moments where he's dipped a little close to the dark side throughout the series and he always bounces back.  It's called foreshadowing.  BTW, Luke did the exact same thing in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, getting angry at Yoda, Ben, Vader, the Emperor.  And he didn't fall to the dark side.  You could also argue that Obi-wan walked dangerously close to the dark side when he lashed out at Maul, or what about Mace Windu prepared to strike down a disarmed Palpatine.  There's a big difference between having a moment where you loose control of your emotions and sitting around constantly brooding.  The Jedi teach to let go of your anger, not suppress it.  You will get angry, but as a Jedi you need to be able to let it go.  You can't make an accurate distinction about whether or not the Jedi should have been able to see Anakin's fall to the dark side when you're looking at it through the goggles of hindsight.  It always seems so obvious after the fact, doesn't it, but I've never seen one of my friends or coworkers in a moment of frustration and immediately think to myself, wow, that guy is probably going to come in tomorrow and decapitate a bunch of children.  

"George, we hate you for making more Star Wars movies.  Please make more Star Wars movies."

-The Internet

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skyjedi2005 said:

Ever since they made Boba Fett not a Mandalorian and were talking bringing Maul back alive i lost interest completely in the series.

Mauls Brother and Maul being Male Dathomir Nightsisters was idiotic, the back-story on mauls race in the Kotor games completely disregarded.

So you gave up on something in the EU because it contradicted something else in the EU?  That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The Nightsisters and the Nightbrothers are a group, not a race.  Maul and Savage are still Zabraks, but they are part of a particular group of Zabraks who are enslaved by the Nightsisters called Nightbrothers.  

Furthermore, the Dathomirians are the result of a hybrid of human DNA and Zabrak.  So in other words, the Zabrak you've seen in other stuff isn't contradicted by Clone Wars because the Dathomirians came from the Zabraks, not the other way around.

"George, we hate you for making more Star Wars movies.  Please make more Star Wars movies."

-The Internet

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Darth Bizarro said:


How does introducing a secondary set of villains prove that they should have been in the movies.  That's like saying that having the Black Sun appear as villains in Shadows of the Empire proves that they should have been in Empire Strikes Back.


Was Black Sun ever established as being a major antagonist in the OT timeline in various interviews, notes, and spinoff material back in the day only to ignored when TESB and ROTJ rolled around? No? Then your comparison fails.

First, the idea of whether the Emperor should or should not have a light-saber is entirely a mater of opinion, not forgone fact (same thing with Yoda BTW).  But even if that weren't up for debate, how exactly is the Emperor going to defend himself against two attackers simultaneously both of whom are wielding double bladed lightsabers with only one lightsaber.  He needs two so he can block two simultaneous attacks.


The guy's got access to telekinetic and electrokinetic abilities. Waving a neon sword around when he can just toss/block/kill a guy with his mind or fry him with bolts of lightning is stupid.

“I am a writer. Therefore, I am not sane.”

― Edgar Allan Poe

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Those abilities didn't help much when his apprentice turned and grabbed him from behind, and tossed him down an elevator shaft though. ;)

Has there ever been any onscreen evidence a Sith Lord could fend off more than one attacker at a time without a saber?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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DuracellEnergizer said:

 

Darth Bizarro said:


How does introducing a secondary set of villains prove that they should have been in the movies.  That's like saying that having the Black Sun appear as villains in Shadows of the Empire proves that they should have been in Empire Strikes Back.


Was Black Sun ever established as being a major antagonist in the OT timeline in various interviews, notes, and spinoff material back in the day only to ignored when TESB and ROTJ rolled around? No? Then your comparison fails.

First, the idea of whether the Emperor should or should not have a light-saber is entirely a mater of opinion, not forgone fact (same thing with Yoda BTW).  But even if that weren't up for debate, how exactly is the Emperor going to defend himself against two attackers simultaneously both of whom are wielding double bladed lightsabers with only one lightsaber.  He needs two so he can block two simultaneous attacks.


The guy's got access to telekinetic and electrokinetic abilities. Waving a neon sword around when he can just toss/block/kill a guy with his mind or fry him with bolts of lightning is stupid.

 

1.  I don't give two flying craps what was said in interviews at some point or another.  According to interviews, there were suppose to be 12 movies.  What matters is what's in the movies and the Mandalorians aren't mentioned once in either the original trilogy or the prequels.  My point still stands that they are secondary villains and having them appear in the Clone Wars does not prove that they should have been in the prequels any more than any other secondary villain would.  They're a B-story, the kind of thing the Clone Wars series was made for.

2.  It's been proved twice that lightsabers can block force lightning.  Obi-wan blocked Dooku's in Attack of the Clones with minimal effort and Mace Windu blocked Palpatine's in Revenge of the Sith.  If his lightning can be blocked by one guy with a single saber, them I'm pretty sure two guys with duel sabers who are also trained in the dark side would have no problem.  

"George, we hate you for making more Star Wars movies.  Please make more Star Wars movies."

-The Internet

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Darth Bizarro said:


How exactly does fixing the flaws make Star Wars as a whole worse?  And even if they were fixes for the worse, ala Greedo, I would hardly call that proof.

1.  He had no character whatsoever in TPM, how does bringing him back and giving him an actual identity make things worse.  Furthermore, he wasn't resurrected, he never died to start with.


So, this is what contemporary Star Wars has come to: a villain cut in half is no longer counted as "obviously dead". That's absurd, and sad.

Darth Bizarro said:


2.  How does introducing a secondary set of villains prove that they should have been in the movies.  That's like saying that having the Black Sun appear as villains in Shadows of the Empire proves that they should have been in Empire Strikes Back.


The whole "Boba Fett is super-important and the First Clone" is built on catering to fans who can't get enough of Boba Fett because his armour is so kewl. That's an exercise in superficiality. Boba Fett as a Mandalorian veteran, one of many, where his armour is not tailormade, but an actual uniform, is much more appealing for so many reasons. I.e. AOTC is flawed in so many ways. This is just one of them, and bringing in Mandalorians in the show is done because AOTC is flawed.

Darth Bizarro said:


3.  First, the idea of whether the Emperor should or should not have a light-saber is entirely a mater of opinion, not forgone fact (same thing with Yoda BTW).  But even if that weren't up for debate, how exactly is the Emperor going to defend himself against two attackers simultaneously both of whom are wielding double bladed lightsabers with only one lightsaber.  He needs two so he can block two simultaneous attacks.


No, on at least one level it's not just a matter of opinion. Yoda clearly states: "judge me by my size, do you?" This is of tremendous significance for the whole meta-physics of the Force. The master Force user has moved beyond the physical, transcended it. Thus, the lightsaber is utterly redundant. Those who are focused on shiny neon-swords over this understanding clearly do not comprehend what made Star Wars great in the first place.

As a note - the whole "lightsabers have been proven to deflect Force lightning" is a flawed argument on two accounts: 1) it rests on the user counting the PT as canon, which OOT-purists do not, for good reason, and 2) it's not like Force Lightning was ever supposed to be a highly effective offensive weapon. If the Emperor wanted to just kill Luke quickly he could have just snapped his neck, or crushed his heart with the telekinetic abilities of the Force - it would have been over in a split second, and is arguably the remedy against two assailants. The Lightning was used as a torture device.

Darth Bizarro said:


4.  Having Anakin become angry slowly as the show progresses helps make his fall to the dark side more believable than simply going all at once.  Anakin has had moments where he's dipped a little close to the dark side throughout the series and he always bounces back.  It's called foreshadowing.  BTW, Luke did the exact same thing in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, getting angry at Yoda, Ben, Vader, the Emperor.  And he didn't fall to the dark side.  You could also argue that Obi-wan walked dangerously close to the dark side when he lashed out at Maul, or what about Mace Windu prepared to strike down a disarmed Palpatine.  There's a big difference between having a moment where you loose control of your emotions and sitting around constantly brooding.  The Jedi teach to let go of your anger, not suppress it.  You will get angry, but as a Jedi you need to be able to let it go.  You can't make an accurate distinction about whether or not the Jedi should have been able to see Anakin's fall to the dark side when you're looking at it through the goggles of hindsight.  It always seems so obvious after the fact, doesn't it, but I've never seen one of my friends or coworkers in a moment of frustration and immediately think to myself, wow, that guy is probably going to come in tomorrow and decapitate a bunch of children.  


I know what "foreshadowing" is. I also recognize poor usage of that storytelling device when I see it. We're talking about Anakin here, y'know, the guy who genocidally slaughtered an entire village, men, women and children, in murderous rage. It's bad enough that the Jedi didn't put in solitary confinment and intense therapy straight after that incident, but now we're supposed to believe that he can have recurring lapses into the Dark Side for *years* without anyone reacting at all? Man, those Jedi are incompetent eedjits in this narrative!

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danaan said:

Meh. More proof that SW is going down hill.

 

????

I was under the impression it started going down hill circa 1983.

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danaan said:

 

Darth Bizarro said:


How exactly does fixing the flaws make Star Wars as a whole worse?  And even if they were fixes for the worse, ala Greedo, I would hardly call that proof.

1.  He had no character whatsoever in TPM, how does bringing him back and giving him an actual identity make things worse.  Furthermore, he wasn't resurrected, he never died to start with.


So, this is what contemporary Star Wars has come to: a villain cut in half is no longer counted as "obviously dead". That's absurd, and sad.

Darth Bizarro said:


2.  How does introducing a secondary set of villains prove that they should have been in the movies.  That's like saying that having the Black Sun appear as villains in Shadows of the Empire proves that they should have been in Empire Strikes Back.


The whole "Boba Fett is super-important and the First Clone" is built on catering to fans who can't get enough of Boba Fett because his armour is so kewl. That's an exercise in superficiality. Boba Fett as a Mandalorian veteran, one of many, where his armour is not tailormade, but an actual uniform, is much more appealing for so many reasons. I.e. AOTC is flawed in so many ways. This is just one of them, and bringing in Mandalorians in the show is done because AOTC is flawed.

Darth Bizarro said:


3.  First, the idea of whether the Emperor should or should not have a light-saber is entirely a mater of opinion, not forgone fact (same thing with Yoda BTW).  But even if that weren't up for debate, how exactly is the Emperor going to defend himself against two attackers simultaneously both of whom are wielding double bladed lightsabers with only one lightsaber.  He needs two so he can block two simultaneous attacks.


No, on at least one level it's not just a matter of opinion. Yoda clearly states: "judge me by my size, do you?" This is of tremendous significance for the whole meta-physics of the Force. The master Force user has moved beyond the physical, transcended it. Thus, the lightsaber is utterly redundant. Those who are focused on shiny neon-swords over this understanding clearly do not comprehend what made Star Wars great in the first place.

As a note - the whole "lightsabers have been proven to deflect Force lightning" is a flawed argument on two accounts: 1) it rests on the user counting the PT as canon, which OOT-purists do not, for good reason, and 2) it's not like Force Lightning was ever supposed to be a highly effective offensive weapon. If the Emperor wanted to just kill Luke quickly he could have just snapped his neck, or crushed his heart with the telekinetic abilities of the Force - it would have been over in a split second, and is arguably the remedy against two assailants. The Lightning was used as a torture device.

Darth Bizarro said:


4.  Having Anakin become angry slowly as the show progresses helps make his fall to the dark side more believable than simply going all at once.  Anakin has had moments where he's dipped a little close to the dark side throughout the series and he always bounces back.  It's called foreshadowing.  BTW, Luke did the exact same thing in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, getting angry at Yoda, Ben, Vader, the Emperor.  And he didn't fall to the dark side.  You could also argue that Obi-wan walked dangerously close to the dark side when he lashed out at Maul, or what about Mace Windu prepared to strike down a disarmed Palpatine.  There's a big difference between having a moment where you loose control of your emotions and sitting around constantly brooding.  The Jedi teach to let go of your anger, not suppress it.  You will get angry, but as a Jedi you need to be able to let it go.  You can't make an accurate distinction about whether or not the Jedi should have been able to see Anakin's fall to the dark side when you're looking at it through the goggles of hindsight.  It always seems so obvious after the fact, doesn't it, but I've never seen one of my friends or coworkers in a moment of frustration and immediately think to myself, wow, that guy is probably going to come in tomorrow and decapitate a bunch of children.  


I know what "foreshadowing" is. I also recognize poor usage of that storytelling device when I see it. We're talking about Anakin here, y'know, the guy who genocidally slaughtered an entire village, men, women and children, in murderous rage. It's bad enough that the Jedi didn't put in solitary confinment and intense therapy straight after that incident, but now we're supposed to believe that he can have recurring lapses into the Dark Side for *years* without anyone reacting at all? Man, those Jedi are incompetent eedjits in this narrative!

 

1.  So I will first respond to the implosibility of the Darth Maul thing with simply a photograph.  

http://www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg 

2.  Your entire argument here is circular and proves no point whatsoever so I won't even bother restating my original point again.

3.  Even if you completely discount the prequels from canon and go with the original trilogy on it's own, Obi-wan flat out states that Yoda trained him as a Jedi.  And Obi-wan says that a lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi.  The Emperor says the same thing in Return of the Jedi.  So who exactly taught him to use the thing.  Based on the implications given to us in the OT, Yoda probably did.  You act like Yoda made some strong case in the movie about Jedi not using lightsabers when all he did was try to make a point that there was more to being a Jedi than just fighting.  So why exactly would it be acceptable to assume that Yoda would condone and even train a Jedi to use a lightsaber, and yet somehow completely ridiculous that he might use one himself.  That doesn't make any sense.  So yes, it is just a matter of opinion.  

Also, Mr. Purist.  We aren't talking about the original trilogy here.  We're talking about the Clone Wars, an off shoot from the Prequels.  So you can't try to make a point about how something in the Clone Wars shouldn't be, and then turn around and say that the prequels don't count because you don't consider them canon.  I'm sorry, but the second you start talking about the Clone Wars, you are officially outside the safety of the purist zone. 

4.  Luke blows up the Death Star, a space station filled with countless officers and enlisted men, none of which are necessarily the next Emperor or Vader and many of whom were likely drafted and he gets a medal.  Or what about all the people on Jabba's sail barge that he murdered when he blew the thing up.  Jabba was dead, all the guards who were attacking him had been taken out already.  What exactly did Luke have to gain by blowing up the sail barge which was at that point probably only filled with an bunch of drunks hanging out to watch the show, some servants, many of whom were likely enslaved, and the band members.  All the guys who where an actual threat to them were defeated already, so why blow it up?  Yet Anakin kills a village full of savage murderers who shoot at passerbys with riffles just for the lulz apparently, raid homesteads, pillage, capture, and torture people, and it's a one way ticket to the dark side.

"George, we hate you for making more Star Wars movies.  Please make more Star Wars movies."

-The Internet

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Darth Bizarro said:


So why exactly would it be acceptable to assume that Yoda would condone and even train a Jedi to use a lightsaber, and yet somehow completely ridiculous that he might use one himself.  That doesn't make any sense.  So yes, it is just a matter of opinion.


So if a parent teaches their child how to ride a bike, that automatically means they themselves have to ride or even own one of their own?

“I am a writer. Therefore, I am not sane.”

― Edgar Allan Poe

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DuracellEnergizer said:

 

Darth Bizarro said:


So why exactly would it be acceptable to assume that Yoda would condone and even train a Jedi to use a lightsaber, and yet somehow completely ridiculous that he might use one himself.  That doesn't make any sense.  So yes, it is just a matter of opinion.


So if a parent teaches their child how to ride a bike, that automatically means they themselves have to ride or even own one of their own?

 

You would be correct.  Teaching a child to ride a bike doesn't automatically mean that they themselves have ever ridden one.  But it would be a logical guess that they might have.

The point I'm attempting to make isn't whether or not Yoda or the Emperor having a lightsaber is a good thing.  I'm simply stating that I don't feel the original trilogy makes a strong enough case against the notion of them using one to prove definitively that this is a contradiction of their characters.  There is no right or wrong answer here.

"George, we hate you for making more Star Wars movies.  Please make more Star Wars movies."

-The Internet

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Darth Bizarro said:


1. So I will first respond to the implosibility of the Darth Maul thing with simply a photograph.

<a href="http://www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg</a>" title="www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg">http://www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg</a>" target="_blank">http://www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg">http://www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg</a>


*sighs*

Maul was cut a good deal higher up:

http://cache.io9.com/assets/images/8/2011/10/felldown-1.jpg

Really, what does it take for you to accept that a character is dead, I wonder? I mean, according to the standards you are setting, Boba Fett is also not proven dead - he could just fix the jet pack with the tools in his utility belt and fly out of Sarlacc or something. Which would be the lamest device for the continuation of a fan fave character evah. But completely in the same league as having Darth Maul come back.

Darth Bizarro said:


How exactly does fixing the flaws make Star Wars as a whole worse?  


Nothing of this fixes any flaw. "Attempting to fix" by building on an already flawed narrative with even more flawed ideas just compounds the existing flaws to the point of making the storyline outright laughably stupid. In short, the flaws in the PT can't be fixed by the Clone Wars show. They can only be fixed by re-making the PT.

Darth Bizarro said:


2.  Your entire argument here is circular and proves no point whatsoever so I won't even bother restating my original point again.


No. Not circular. It's a variant of my "the flaws of the PT can't be fixed by the CW"-argument + "there are plenty of ways the story of the PT could have been much more appealing than the schlock we were given".

Darth Bizarro said:


3.  Even if you completely discount the prequels from canon and go with the original trilogy on it's own, Obi-wan flat out states that Yoda trained him as a Jedi.  And Obi-wan says that a lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi.  The Emperor says the same thing in Return of the Jedi.  So who exactly taught him to use the thing.  Based on the implications given to us in the OT, Yoda probably did.  You act like Yoda made some strong case in the movie about Jedi not using lightsabers when all he did was try to make a point that there was more to being a Jedi than just fighting.  So why exactly would it be acceptable to assume that Yoda would condone and even train a Jedi to use a lightsaber, and yet somehow completely ridiculous that he might use one himself.  That doesn't make any sense.  So yes, it is just a matter of opinion.


You clearly do not understand the profound significance of Yoda's teachings on Dagobah.

Darth Bizarro said:


Also, Mr. Purist.  We aren't talking about the original trilogy here.  We're talking about the Clone Wars, an off shoot from the Prequels.  So you can't try to make a point about how something in the Clone Wars shouldn't be, and then turn around and say that the prequels don't count because you don't consider them canon.  I'm sorry, but the second you start talking about the Clone Wars, you are officially outside the safety of the purist zone. 


I know. But the OP said that the CW is what SW should be. I disagree profoundly. SW should not be about who's got the most flashy weapons combo. It should be about moments like Yoda training Luke on Dagobah.

Darth Bizarro said:


4.  Luke blows up the Death Star, a space station filled with countless officers and enlisted men, none of which are necessarily the next Emperor or Vader and many of whom were likely drafted and he gets a medal.  Or what about all the people on Jabba's sail barge that he murdered when he blew the thing up.  Jabba was dead, all the guards who were attacking him had been taken out already.  What exactly did Luke have to gain by blowing up the sail barge which was at that point probably only filled with an bunch of drunks hanging out to watch the show, some servants, many of whom were likely enslaved, and the band members.  All the guys who where an actual threat to them were defeated already, so why blow it up?  Yet Anakin kills a village full of savage murderers who shoot at passerbys with riffles just for the lulz apparently, raid homesteads, pillage, capture, and torture people, and it's a one way ticket to the dark side.


Luke never gave in to his anger the way Anakin did on Tatooine. Again, you seem to fail to understand the dynamics of the OT - see the Throne Room scene in ROTJ. Luke passed that test. Anakin didn't. The sail barge scene was not a case of a defenceless village that Luke decided to destroy because of bigotry and hate. Luke did NOT initiate hostilities against Jabba's outfit. He had, in fact, tried SEVERAL non-lethal methods of getting Han out of there (3-4?). He had just been attacked by just about all of Jabba's thugs. As far as he knew, there could have been more guards coming up to follow the first ones. Could an even better outcome have been sought? Yes, but even so, the two situations are NOT comparable at all.

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Sometimes we all make me laugh because we argue about the correctness of such nerdy stuff.  Yes, I'm party to this silliness.  But I did want to chime in.  I agree, I very much prefer the pre-PT explanation (from EU sources) that Jedi masters had advanced so far in the Force that they no longer needed lightsabers.  Moreover, if lightsabers had to be used in the PT by masters, they didn't have to be overused by them as they currently are.  And lightsabers, which seemed so precious in the OT, are like cheap, replaceable water pistols in the PT.  But I think Bizarro makes a good case that the OT does not actually preclude Jedi masters using lightsabers.  It's pretty clear that Yoda and the Emperor do not consider lightsaber usage as beneath the Jedi.  The Jedi masters obviously expected the knights to use such methods as part of their growth.  When Yoda told Luke that he must face Vader again, I don't think he expected him to defeat him without one.  I believe that Luke's test at the cave was a message about giving in to anger, listening to fear, and relying on violence to solve all problems.  It did not mean that he would never have to resort to violence.  Bizarro said it right: there is more to being a Jedi than fighting, lightsabers, and heroics...but that does not leave those things completely out of the picture.

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danaan said:

 

Darth Bizarro said:


1. So I will first respond to the implosibility of the Darth Maul thing with simply a photograph.

http://www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg" title="www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg">http://www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg">http://www.mathewingram.com/work/wp-content/uploads/halfman2_450x400.jpg


*sighs*

Maul was cut a good deal higher up:

http://cache.io9.com/assets/images/8/2011/10/felldown-1.jpg

Really, what does it take for you to accept that a character is dead, I wonder? I mean, according to the standards you are setting, Boba Fett is also not proven dead - he could just fix the jet pack with the tools in his utility belt and fly out of Sarlacc or something. Which would be the lamest device for the continuation of a fan fave character evah. But completely in the same league as having Darth Maul come back.

Darth Bizarro said:


How exactly does fixing the flaws make Star Wars as a whole worse?  


Nothing of this fixes any flaw. "Attempting to fix" by building on an already flawed narrative with even more flawed ideas just compounds the existing flaws to the point of making the storyline outright laughably stupid. In short, the flaws in the PT can't be fixed by the Clone Wars show. They can only be fixed by re-making the PT.

Darth Bizarro said:


2.  Your entire argument here is circular and proves no point whatsoever so I won't even bother restating my original point again.


No. Not circular. It's a variant of my "the flaws of the PT can't be fixed by the CW"-argument + "there are plenty of ways the story of the PT could have been much more appealing than the schlock we were given".

Darth Bizarro said:


3.  Even if you completely discount the prequels from canon and go with the original trilogy on it's own, Obi-wan flat out states that Yoda trained him as a Jedi.  And Obi-wan says that a lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi.  The Emperor says the same thing in Return of the Jedi.  So who exactly taught him to use the thing.  Based on the implications given to us in the OT, Yoda probably did.  You act like Yoda made some strong case in the movie about Jedi not using lightsabers when all he did was try to make a point that there was more to being a Jedi than just fighting.  So why exactly would it be acceptable to assume that Yoda would condone and even train a Jedi to use a lightsaber, and yet somehow completely ridiculous that he might use one himself.  That doesn't make any sense.  So yes, it is just a matter of opinion.


You clearly do not understand the profound significance of Yoda's teachings on Dagobah.

Darth Bizarro said:


Also, Mr. Purist.  We aren't talking about the original trilogy here.  We're talking about the Clone Wars, an off shoot from the Prequels.  So you can't try to make a point about how something in the Clone Wars shouldn't be, and then turn around and say that the prequels don't count because you don't consider them canon.  I'm sorry, but the second you start talking about the Clone Wars, you are officially outside the safety of the purist zone. 


I know. But the OP said that the CW is what SW should be. I disagree profoundly. SW should not be about who's got the most flashy weapons combo. It should be about moments like Yoda training Luke on Dagobah.

Darth Bizarro said:


4.  Luke blows up the Death Star, a space station filled with countless officers and enlisted men, none of which are necessarily the next Emperor or Vader and many of whom were likely drafted and he gets a medal.  Or what about all the people on Jabba's sail barge that he murdered when he blew the thing up.  Jabba was dead, all the guards who were attacking him had been taken out already.  What exactly did Luke have to gain by blowing up the sail barge which was at that point probably only filled with an bunch of drunks hanging out to watch the show, some servants, many of whom were likely enslaved, and the band members.  All the guys who where an actual threat to them were defeated already, so why blow it up?  Yet Anakin kills a village full of savage murderers who shoot at passerbys with riffles just for the lulz apparently, raid homesteads, pillage, capture, and torture people, and it's a one way ticket to the dark side.


Luke never gave in to his anger the way Anakin did on Tatooine. Again, you seem to fail to understand the dynamics of the OT - see the Throne Room scene in ROTJ. Luke passed that test. Anakin didn't. The sail barge scene was not a case of a defenceless village that Luke decided to destroy because of bigotry and hate. Luke did NOT initiate hostilities against Jabba's outfit. He had, in fact, tried SEVERAL non-lethal methods of getting Han out of there (3-4?). He had just been attacked by just about all of Jabba's thugs. As far as he knew, there could have been more guards coming up to follow the first ones. Could an even better outcome have been sought? Yes, but even so, the two situations are NOT comparable at all.

 

1.  A death certificate.  And there is no universe whatsoever where Boba Fett blasting out of the sarlacc pit is just as stupid as Maul surviving getting cut in half.

And BTW, not every one thinks that the Prequels are the worthless piles of crap that you do.  They may not be up to pare with the originals but the worst movies ever made they most certainly are not, regardless of what the hateboy industrial complex would have us believe.

2.  I'm sorry dude, but it is, get over it.  Introducing a secondary villain in the spin off series that was planed are part of a B-story in the movies and didn't make the cut does not prove that it should have been in there.  You seem to be greatly overstating the importance of the Mandalorians in the Clone Wars anyway.  

3.  I "clearly" don't understand the significance?  Is that a fact?  So because I don't think Yoda's words mean what you think they mean, I clearly don't understand?  Please enlighten me good sir.  What exactly did Yoda say that completely proves without a shadow of a doubt that he never would have used a lightsaber in his younger days?  Please, give me a few quotes.  Is it the size matters not thing you said earlier?  Because I thought that line simply meant that the amount of force you have isn't dependent entirely on you physical strength.  Or do I clearly not understand?

And who exactly says that it "should" be about moments like Yoda on Dagobah?  Is that what Mr. Plinket told you?

4.  Um, actually they are since both involve a Skywalker showing up in a den of murderers and thieve attempting to rescue someone they cared about and killing everyone in the process.  Yes, Luke didn't have the level of anger that Anakin did, but then again, Luke didn't fall to the dark side now did he.  Basically, Anakin and Luke did the exact same thing but because Anakin did it while pissed off and Luke didn't, Anakin should therefore be chastised and thrown in solitary by the Jedi Order to have the dark side beat out of him?  The Jedi aren't pacifists and they seem to have no qualm whatsoever to killing for the greater good.  You think Anakin is the first Jedi to come there way who had a brush with the dark side.  Probably not, and when Anakin began to brush with the dark side they tried to help him.  But predicting that he would have charge the Jedi Temple and slaughterer everyone inside?  I'd say there's some reasonable doubt as for that.   

5.  This is fun by the way :)

"George, we hate you for making more Star Wars movies.  Please make more Star Wars movies."

-The Internet