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The Big ESB Reveal

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"No. I am your father."

I've seen people say on here that, when editing ROTS, they want to preserve the Vader-is-Anakin reveal. Why?

I ask, because I don't remember ever not knowing this fact (disclosure: born in 1987). I don't remember ever being surprised by Vader's statement. I understand that, for 1980 audiences, this was a huge revelation, and it may have been the most memorable thing about the film, but does a surprise here really make ESB a better film?

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timdiggerm said:

"No. I am your father."

Spoiler alert?

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 (Edited)

Yes.

But also, think about people that want to show the trilogy to their kids for the first time.  I was born in 1986, and when I was about 8 or 9 my dad showed me the OT for the first time, and I loved it.  I specifically remember the end of ESB being such an awesome moment that I would reenact the scene with my plastic robot hand toy again and again. 

So although "Luke I am your father" is one of the most famous lines in pop culture history, not many 10-year-olds know or care about pop culture.  Plus, without any background knowledge of Star Wars, I doubt hearing the quote out of context would spoil it for any kids.

I know that when I have kids, I'd love to show them Adywan's complete revisited series, 1-6, and have them be in awe just as I was.


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I personally think it's a bit silly to "preserve" the surprise in the prequels.  I mean, that's ostensibly what they're all about:  explaining how Anakin became Darth Vader.  So leaving out that teeny-tiny detail would make them completely devoid of whatever point they were supposed to have.  And also... again, they're prequels.  Despite what George says, they're designed and structured to be watched after the original movies, so there is no surprise to preserve.  Anyone who is watching the prequels should already be extremely grounded in the events of the original trilogy.  If you're watching them 1-6, you're doing it wrong. =P

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May have? I guess you had to be there.

It was an oft quoted line by the early 90's. (Spaceballs also kept it alive in a way.) Plus this guy went and ruined it for millions of tv viewers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neuMyI8M5fc

There are still people on the planet who haven't seen the movie. I encountered a young horror movie fan yesterday who's never seen Psycho, and hasn't had it spoiled for them yet!

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Where were you in '77?

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Gaffer Tape said:

And also... again, they're prequels.  Despite what George says, they're designed and structured to be watched after the original movies, so there is no surprise to preserve.

This.

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I saw SW and ESB in the theaters when I was 17 and 20 years old, respectively.  By the time I saw ESB in the theater, everyone already knew the reveal -- the secret lasted one day, if that.

Having said that, the reveal is significant and is meant to be a surprise. That is why they must be seen in the order 4,5,6,1,2,3.  And for that reason, there is no reason to hide the reveal in the prequels.

Furthermore, it would be impossible to hide the reveal... when Ben talks about Anakin being a good friend that he was tutoring, who ELSE could he be talking about?  He also says that Vader helped the empire destroy the Jedi. In ep.3 we watch Anakin do all those things, and then become Vader. You'd have to ditch pretty much all of ep.3.  Hmm, not a bad idea, now that I think of it.

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Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Gaffer Tape said:

I personally think it's a bit silly to "preserve" the surprise in the prequels.  ... ... ...

If you're watching them 1-6, you're doing it wrong. =P

 Ditto.

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Furthermore, it would be impossible to hide the reveal... when Ben talks about Anakin being a good friend that he was tutoring, who ELSE could he be talking about?  He also says that Vader helped the empire destroy the Jedi. In ep.3 we watch Anakin do all those things, and then become Vader. You'd have to ditch pretty much all of ep.3.  Hmm, not a bad idea, now that I think of it.

You have indeed stated my concerns with Ady's Revisited plans. Leaving out the "Rise...NOOOOOooooooo" scene is easy enough, but it's all that other Vader-stuff that Ani does that really... well, I don't see how it's doable.

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Showed the trilogy to a first-timer a few years ago and to my delight, "No, I am your father." was a total surprise for him! He had, of course, heard the line quoted, but for whatever reason he had always thought that someone made that up and it wasn't really in the film. I realize this has little to do with the subject, but I thought it was nice.

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I am a "rewrite the PT- preserve the surprises (all of them)" kind of guy.  I wanted to come in and say that though I don't today have the time to go into defending that.  Maybe later this week.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

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"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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 (Edited)

I don't see anything wrong with it.  Fanedits are meant to provide new experiences, and since they don't replace the original (or the "original," when dealing with Star Wars, unfortunately), who cares?  And if it is done in a manner that allows someone to watch in a different order (such as 1-2-3-4-5-6), who cares about that either?  It's not what you would do, but it shouldn't be any skin off your back.

So the OP asks "why?" and I ask "why not?"

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 (Edited)

This path will never grow weeds.

I'm in the gaggle who would have preferred a PT which maintained the surprises if seen sequentially.

In 1980 Star Wars (1977) became (in terms of the saga) Episode IV therefore what we call the PT should never have been seen as 'Prequels", as in 'a story before another story' but earlier episodes in a single unfolding text.

People already familiar with the OT would have had the delicious dramatic irony of knowing how things would later unfold (and knowing already they wouldn't need to have it underlined anyway) but future generations could watch in sequential order and still gasp as Luke's entire world view (and the audience's) got turned on it's head in Episode V.

Anyone doubting the impact that plot revelation can make (if you hadn't had it muttered like a mantra by the Synod of the Holy Trilogy all your life) should remember George didn't see it coming when he wrote and filmed and presented the first film and yet it still worked.

These films should have been made not only with the audiences of 1999-2005 in mind but should have been made for future generations who would never know a cinematic landscape without Episodes 1-3.

Would this have placed limits on the sort of story Lucas could have told?

You betchya!

As it was without much in the way of limits Lucas made a right royal cock-up of the PT.

Not only were they badly written. directed, acted and shot on visible panty line digital cameras, he couldn't even tie them into what we knew would happen, let alone do it without shoving the big revelations of the OT in the shredder of history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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Actually there's quite a lot of people out there who don't really know Vader is Luke's father. Apparently they are called "girls". Adywan is cutting the Vader stuff from III? That's interesting. I guess the idea is that when going 1-6 it will seem like Vader is just another goon like General Grievous?

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"Girls", you say.  I've heard of them.

 

Bingowings said:

Would this have placed limits on the sort of story Lucas could have told?

Ye.  Which is what I think would have made all the difference.  When Lucas had all of his limits removed, look at what we got.

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^There isn't now but that's what this thread is all about.

A good writer could have come up with any number of exciting ways to tell the story of the rise of the Empire and even have Anakin and Vader in it and not spoiled the surprises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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Oh, so it's more of a "what could have been" than a "what can be done". Of course, there are many scenarios and events that would have made the prequels "not prequels".

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 (Edited)

Those of you think you can preserve the surprise and the I->VI viewing order, how do you respond to Puggo's statement? I'll quote it again:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Furthermore, it would be impossible to hide the reveal... when Ben talks about Anakin being a good friend that he was tutoring, who ELSE could he be talking about?  He also says that Vader helped the empire destroy the Jedi. In ep.3 we watch Anakin do all those things, and then become Vader. You'd have to ditch pretty much all of ep.3.  Hmm, not a bad idea, now that I think of it.

As much as it's risky opening this up to a prequel-rewrite topic (oh god it never ends)... How do you think it's possible?

Alternatively, if someone knows where in the monstrous, unnavigable Prequel Redux thread this has been sufficiently covered, I'd be grateful for links.

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timdiggerm said:

Those of you think you can preserve the surprise and the I->VI viewing order, how do you respond to Puggo's statement? I'll quote it again:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Furthermore, it would be impossible to hide the reveal... when Ben talks about Anakin being a good friend that he was tutoring, who ELSE could he be talking about?  He also says that Vader helped the empire destroy the Jedi. In ep.3 we watch Anakin do all those things, and then become Vader. You'd have to ditch pretty much all of ep.3.  Hmm, not a bad idea, now that I think of it.

As much as it's risky opening this up to a prequel-rewrite topic (oh god it never ends)... How do you think it's possible?

Just edit out Ben's speech too. :p

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 (Edited)

timdiggerm said:

"No. I am your father."

I've seen people say on here that, when editing ROTS, they want to preserve the Vader-is-Anakin reveal. Why?

I ask, because I don't remember ever not knowing this fact (disclosure: born in 1987). I don't remember ever being surprised by Vader's statement. I understand that, for 1980 audiences, this was a huge revelation, and it may have been the most memorable thing about the film, but does a surprise here really make ESB a better film?

Its gotten pretty easy for me.  Now all i watch is the 1977-1983 theatrical trilogy.  I just disregard the prequels i would rather pretend there is only 3 films, just like with Indiana Jones, of which the fourth film i don't even own it was such a turkey of a film and not Indiana Jones at all.

 

I do the same with the new bond and new star treks or superman films they don't exist and i refuse to buy them.

Only new take or continuation of a franchise i enjoyed Nolan's Batman films.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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timdiggerm said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Furthermore, it would be impossible to hide the reveal... when Ben talks about Anakin being a good friend that he was tutoring, who ELSE could he be talking about?  He also says that Vader helped the empire destroy the Jedi. In ep.3 we watch Anakin do all those things, and then become Vader. You'd have to ditch pretty much all of ep.3.  Hmm, not a bad idea, now that I think of it.

You have indeed stated my concerns with Ady's Revisited plans. Leaving out the "Rise...NOOOOOooooooo" scene is easy enough, but it's all that other Vader-stuff that Ani does that really... well, I don't see how it's doable.

Yoda said:

Always with you it cannot be done... ;)

I love how it's being said that keeping the surprise can't be pulled off for my EP3:Revisited edit, yet no one knows my plans for this edit. I have planned this out and i do have a way that Vader can be seen to be a separate person to Anakin and still have Anakin's fall to the dark side intact. Am i going to explain, well no. I will be keeping this to myself until i get to Ep3. You have to remember that the Revisited saga is no longer just an ordinary fan edit that takes existing footage and rearranges it to create a new edit. I will be filming new elements to create new shots that will be needed to pull this off.

Ben's speech to Luke doesn't really change anything either, but i have a way to have the "pupil" exist but not named. Plus , when ben explains to Luke in ROTJ about the "certain point of view" this actually works. Just look at bens reaction in his hut on Tatooine in EP4 when Luke asks about his father. Without even knowing it was supposed to be a lie at the time , Alec gave an uncomfortable look in the pause before his speech. So this actually helped to sell the lie.

The ESB reveal, thanks to the terrible writing of the prequels, turned from a "oh my god, is he lying/ that can't be true?" moment to a "well, duh" moment. You can't expect people that are new to the saga to watch them in the 4,5,6,1,2,3 order. When you see a set of movies that are numbered in order then you will watch them in numerical order. The only other way around it would be to renumber the OT 1,2 & 3 and have the prequels numbered after them, but the episode numbers have become so synonymous with each film as they stand now, i doubt changing the episode numbers would sit comfortably with people.

The ESB reveal needs to be kept as a surprise.

 

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

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I agree ady.  Empire is great in that way, and the prequels diminished much that was great about the oot.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.