The Audio Preservation Thread — Page 13

Jonno said:

Here's another for the list:

Movie: The Fly (1986)

Format: Laserdisc  1503-80

Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit
PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 48 khz, 16-bit (BD-friendly upsample)

Synced To: 2007 Blu-ray Release Region A

Ripped/Synced by: Buster D/Jonno

Notes: Contains the original Dolby Stereo soundtrack

Big thanks to Buster D for the original rip. I've done this one in the 'modern style', i.e. edited at native 44.1KHz and upsampled to 48 for the Blu-ray version. Both available on request.

 Added, thanks guys!

Predator is up next...

Jonno said:

Predator is up next...

 Fantastic! I have it ripped myself but never got around to syncing it. I'm excited to hear it.

Awesome, I look forward to checking this out.  Still haven't gotten around to watching the BD of The Fly that I bought way back, but it will be good to view it with the LD audio.  I'll probably want to wait until summer is over, though.  It's hot and humid where I live, and my projector puts out enough heat to make it even worse.  Broken A/C, too.

Oh, and the "Format" should actually be this LD: http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/42593/SF078-1395/Fly-The-%281986%29

Jonno said:

Predator is up next...

Awesome! I watched it last week on DVD with DTS track and thought some of the background music didn't sound loud enough in the mix. I have and old stereo TV taping embedded in memory. Hopefully the LD rip will be just how I remember it.

Excuse my ignorance on the matter, but how does one best take advantage of a mono/stereo track on a 5.1/7.1 surround setup? Can the receiver actually properly distribute these tracks to all speakers and have it sound better than a native 5.1 track on a blu-ray?

For instance, in regards to the Temple of Doom, PDB stated "One of the best Dolby Stereo soundtracks". Does this mean it sounds really great in a stereo setup only when compared to a 5.1 track, or does it actually sound better in a surround setup as well when compared to the 5.1 track on the blu-ray?

Thank you.

Some receivers will output only left and right in this case, but others have options for additional processing to utilize speakers not part of the encoding.

Check if you receiver has a direct or pure direct mode (or something along those lines) to make sure you are hearing only the encoded left and right stereo channels.

Dolby stereo tracks (such as Temple of Doom) were mixed for a 4.0 channel layout - left, right, centre and rear (of course large theatres would present these channels across multiple speakers to ensure coverage of the listening space).

The 'stereo' part is admittedly confusing because we tend to associate this term with 2-channel presentation, but indeed these tracks are best experienced in a surround capable setup; 5.1 presentation is really not that great a leap from 4.0, as the additional channels simply provide 'split' surrounds (for panning of rear effects/music) and a dedicated bass channel.

For as pure a Dolby Stereo experience as possible, switch your 5.1 receiver to Pro Logic. This will steer the left, right and centre from the mix to the correct speakers, and send its 1-channel surround to both of your rears. Your subwoofer won't be neglected, since your receiver will filter off the lower frequencies of the mix for it (DS mixes don't tend to be all that bass-heavy, but they can surprise you).

You might want to give Pro Logic II a try - it's an altogether cleverer decoder than the original Pro Logic, and simulates stereo surrounds (basically upmixing the 4.0 source to full 5.1).

Many thanks for the replies. So if I understand correctly, a well-mixed Dolby stereo track can be just as good and immersive as a 5.1 on the same setup?

How does the Pro Logic II know which parts to output to each speaker? I understand how it determines the low frequency stuff for LFE, but how does it know to put the dialogue in the center and what to send to the surrounds if the audio file itself is only stored as a 2.0 track and not the 4.0 that it was mixed at? I read about the Dolby Stereo Matrix on wikipedia, but I'm still not quite sure how this could provide as immersive of a result as a true 5.1. 

Using Temple of Doom again as an example, is there a reason one would choose to play the Dolby Stereo track over the 5.1 DTS-HD on the Blu-Ray in a 5.1 setup?

There are lots of variables here. First off, a mix that's been specifically designed for a 5.1 scheme and then presented in a discrete channel format (5.1 AC-3 or DTS) will inevitably be more precise than a matrixed 2.0 mix which only had four effective channels to begin with. So for most films post-1992, the 5.1 is the way to go; no argument there.

The reason these laserdisc projects are underway is chiefly one of preservation: that 5.1 DTS-HD mix on your Temple of Doom Blu-ray is not how the film's state-of-the-art (in 1984) Dolby Stereo originally sounded, whereas the 2.0 stereo on the laserdisc is a great deal closer. When these modern surround mixes are made for older films, liberties are taken in an effort to modernise the sound, with rethought dialogue/effects/music levels and often altogether new content; even in a relatively tasteful mix, like those of the Indiana Jones films, the feel is wrong.

Add to that the compression factor: laserdiscs with digital sound present their authentic stereo mixes as uncompressed PCM, whereas 'basic' Dolby Digital and DTS crunch down the audio information drastically in order to achieve manageable data rates. I won't get into the whole debate over whether this loss of information is noticeable, I will simply say that I find PCM stereo tracks to have a presence and intensity often lacking in compressed tracks.

So in summary: what you lose in channel separation you gain in integrity - not only in data, but also in authenticity. 'Immersive' is a subjective term, but where older films are concerned I trust the original sound engineers to present the mix as it was intended to be heard, and they can often surprise you with their strength.

I can't answer your question about PLII - perhaps someone else here is more an expert on decoders. However it works, it's pretty impressive; it can actually use the phase difference in a basic stereo track (e.g. music) to derive a full 5.1 spread, so a 4-channel source (which already has a dedicated centre channel) is ample for fairly convincing results. I try it out from time to time, though often end up switching back to basic Pro Logic for authenticity's sake.

Jonno said:

There are lots of variables here. First off, a mix that's been specifically designed for a 5.1 scheme and then presented in a discrete channel format (5.1 AC-3 or DTS) will inevitably be more precise than a matrixed 2.0 mix which only had four effective channels to begin with. So for most films post-1992, the 5.1 is the way to go; no argument there.

The reason these laserdisc projects are underway is chiefly one of preservation: that 5.1 DTS-HD mix on your Temple of Doom Blu-ray is not how the film's state-of-the-art (in 1984) Dolby Stereo originally sounded, whereas the 2.0 stereo on the laserdisc is a great deal closer. When these modern surround mixes are made for older films, liberties are taken in an effort to modernise the sound, with rethought dialogue/effects/music levels and often altogether new content; even in a relatively tasteful mix, like those of the Indiana Jones films, the feel is wrong.

Add to that the compression factor: laserdiscs with digital sound present their authentic stereo mixes as uncompressed PCM, whereas 'basic' Dolby Digital and DTS crunch down the audio information drastically in order to achieve manageable data rates. I won't get into the whole debate over whether this loss of information is noticeable, I will simply say that I find PCM stereo tracks to have a presence and intensity often lacking in compressed tracks.

So in summary: what you lose in channel separation you gain in integrity - not only in data, but also in authenticity. 'Immersive' is a subjective term, but where older films are concerned I trust the original sound engineers to present the mix as it was intended to be heard, and they can often surprise you with their strength.

I can't answer your question about PLII - perhaps someone else here is more an expert on decoders. However it works, it's pretty impressive; it can actually use the phase difference in a basic stereo track (e.g. music) to derive a full 5.1 spread, so a 4-channel source (which already has a dedicated centre channel) is ample for fairly convincing results. I try it out from time to time, though often end up switching back to basic Pro Logic for authenticity's sake.

 Jonno covered it perfectly in this post.

Thanks PDB :-)

Great reply, thanks Jonno. I'd definitely like to check a few of these out. In order to acquire the sound files, should I PM the person responsible for creating the respective tracks that I'm interested in?

Jonno said:

Your subwoofer won't be neglected, since your receiver will filter off the lower frequencies of the mix for it (DS mixes don't tend to be all that bass-heavy, but they can surprise you).

Technically isn't separation of the bass frequencies between mains and subs a function of the crossover setting in the receiver?  For a properly balanced system the subs would take over just above the lowest reproducible frequency of the mains which would then be free to output only the range of sounds they are capable of.

For matrix mixes this is fairly straight forward since there is no discrete LFE data.  I assume for discrete mixes, depending on where the crossover is set, part of the LFE data might actually be going to the mains, but I've never really thought about this (or tested it) before.

Good point. I'd assumed that the function of crossover processing was to determine the appropriate frequencies from the main channels (particularly in matrixed mixes) to direct to the sub; it hadn't occurred to me that a discrete LFE channel might actually find its way to the mains to some degree.

I expect it's down to your setup - a decent set of mains could comfortably handle a share of the lower range if required, though that's not something I can personally claim at present (the idea of my little satellite speakers handling any kind of low frequency is pretty laughable!)

I do believe, at least with cinema DTS, the LFE info is derived from the surrounds.  I am unsure about any other audio setup.

Good advice sir.

:)

I am trying to preserve the german LD audio for BRAINDEAD for future unrated HD releases.

The best available german LD was the Astro
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/38735/NF-23202-LD/Braindead-(1992)

Is there anyone who has this LD and can capture the sound bit-perfect (at best) or simply capture?

So please PM.

I am searching for this LD a long time...

Hello,
I'm a film sound scholar from Italy and I'm interested in the laserdisc soundtracks of the following films for research purposes:
- Alien (5.1)
- Carrie
- Vertigo
- North by Northwest
- Taxi Driver
- The Shining
- A Clockwork Orange
- Full Metal Jacket
- 2001 (I don't know if anyone ripped this yet).

It doesn't matter if they are not synched to current video releases.

Could you please provide me with these? Your help will be highly appreciated.
Thank you very much.

Some nice new additions from Nirbateman for the James Bond fan:

Movie: James Bond 01 Dr No

Format: Criterion Laserdisc CC1234L

Input Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Synced To: Official Blu ray release

Ripped/Synced by: Nirbateman

Notes:  Banned commentary. Not perfectly synced because I didn't wish to edit and re-convert a very lossy AC3. first 10 seconds slightly sped up and cut to accommodate the new logos.

Movie: James Bond 01 Dr No

Format: Criterion Laserdisc CC1234L

Input Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Synced To: Official Blu ray release

Ripped/Synced by: Nirbateman

Notes: Music/Effects only track. Not perfectly synced because I didn't wish to edit and re-convert a very lossy AC3

Movie: James Bond 02 From Russia With Love

Format: Criterion Laserdisc CC1266L

Input Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Synced To: Official Blu ray release

Ripped/Synced by: Nirbateman

Notes: Banned commentary. Not perfectly synced because I didn't wish to edit and re-convert a very lossy AC3

Movie: James Bond 03 Goldfinger

Format: Criterion Laserdisc CC1267L

Input Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Synced To: Official Blu ray release

Ripped/Synced by: Nirbateman

Notes: Banned commentary. Not perfectly synched because I didn't wish to edit and re-convert a very lossy AC3. first 10 seconds slightly sped up and cut to accommodate the new logos.

Movie: James Bond 03 Goldfinger

Format: Criterion Laserdisc CC1267L

Input Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Synced To: Official Blu ray release

Ripped/Synced by: Nirbateman

Notes: Music/Effects only track. Not perfectly synched because I didn't wish to edit and re-convert a very lossy AC3

Another LD to look for is Fright Night (1985)

If anyone has the LD audio for this one.