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The Acolyte (live action series set in The High Republic era) - a general discussion thread — Page 12

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this show is just a waste of time, its infuckingsane that this is the 3rd star wars show that disney release this year and all of them sucks, this finale was some nice moments like the ending some mae and osha moments and the fights but everything else is not believable, and there is a new low, that they randle the fan service in a poor and boring way like say what u want about the other shows and movie but that 2 scenes was so abrupt and has no momentum or impact. The Vfx are somehow worse than before, the sets a limited but we could tolerate that if story was good or at least cohesive

idk

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I wasn’t sure if it was possible, but I feel like the finale did a good job of ending the season. Personally despite enjoying the series up until now the previous 2 episodes made me very skeptical that they could wrap everything they needed to wrap up in 1 episode, but I think they did a good job of it. There are still some things unexplained and some unanswered questions, but when compared with its direct predecessor Ahsoka, it actually feels like a complete story. Honestly, if you just removed a few scenes and moments this would work as being a stand-alone Star Wars story. However that being said while I thought the finale was good, I don’t think it was good enough to change anyone’s opinion on the show. If you mostly thought the show was decent or pretty good, I think the ending will be mostly satisfying, but it’s not going to convert anyone who didn’t like the show up to this point.

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I’m someone who didn’t like the show up to this point, but I think the finale did kind of save it for me? I at least really admire what it was trying to do; I think the unsettling nature of the whole story kind of came together in the end. It did feel “evil” to me, the payoff of Osha being the one to strangle Sol to death in Jonestown just feels dark and appropriately uncomfortable, even if it wasn’t fully earned.

But yeah, it’s very weird and bad throughout, Osha and Mae never really work as characters, but I’m sold enough on this as the relatively mundane start of a secret rotting that informs the whole saga. It’s intimate with big implications, deceptively fucked up. I think that feeling it leaves me with is generally just a fun impression. I had fun with a trashy show.

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing

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This finale has cemented the feelings I’ve had throughout this season; the story is there, and is a great concept, but poorly executed by dragging it out into eight episodes. There’s enough hooks in the finale that I do want to see a second season continue it on, but I’m very much looking forward to a fanedit version of season one that sorts out the pacing and flow.

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If the Acolyte gets a season 2 (big If) I hope they at least change the writers if not the show runner. The story of Darth Plagueis the wise deserves Andor/HBO style drama writing, nothing less.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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Just watched a 20-minute recap of season 1 with scenes to accompany it, and my few cents are the same as my thoughts before the series’ premiere;

the acting (oh my god, the acting), the dialogue and at times the location designs are what is really ruining current Star Wars and this series. Dialogue and acting has to be a dance between the two professions, but here it comes across as your drunk uncle dancing with your cat at your sister’s wedding. It’s just not good, but it’s hilarious to laugh at as you watch it unfold. Problem is, I don’t think that is what they went for? I might be wrong.

Either replace every current writer they have used twice now, on every single project, and hire writers from HBO, Apple and a select few good ones from Netflix.

However, I’d prefer them selling the entire thing to someone who wants to write quality rather than… you know, your drunk uncle dancing with a cat.

And for the budget this thing had, with most of the location designs they create and use… and costumes… I’m… speechless… It’s literally Disney Channel from 2012 sometimes. Like, I’ve seen clips that make me think “that could’ve been from Hannah Montana”.

May the coma be with you all.

SIDENOTE:

I will say, from the 20 minutes I’ve watched, I did like 60% of the Sith executing the Jedi sequence. They have held some of the fighting on this show to a high standard. But when many of the actors can’t pull of a believable face of dread or sorrow in a scene of pure chaos and horror… then it becomes a comedy, doesn’t it.

Closing Note:

They wanted to make a drama mystery series for all the ages, but instead they created the Tommy Wiseau of Star Wars.

WHAT HAVE I DONE?
The Ancient Lore
Kenobi: A Star Wars Story
Harry Potter Revisited
Game of Thrones Film Edits
Titanic Restructured
… and more.

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What a strange show, some great ideas mixed with poor execution at times that really hampers it.

The very last scene has convinced me that there’s too much meddling from Lucasfilm and that this is not exactly the show Headland intended.

There’s just nothing about this series that calls for a Yoda tease. It should have ended with Osha and Qimir silhouetted, and based on the music and rhythm of the episode that feels like where the writers intended to end it.

The need to shove in tie-ins to the OT into every show is so bizarre and emblematic of Lucasfilm’s lack of confidence in their showrunners, which I think why so many of these shows end up mediocre. They should have just let Headland make the show she wanted.

I liked parts of the finale, but like the show as a whole, it feels like it could have been much better.

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Having had time to sleep on the finale and think on the series as a whole I think I’ve identified the biggest issues with the series. This post will mostly be focused on the negatives of the show as I see them so while it may come across that I thought the show was bad, I do still ultimately like the show. First off the show has a big issue with characterizing both Mae and Osha, with Mae facing the brunt of the characterization issues. Her character starts off well enough with her drive for revenge and when we learn the reason for it her motivations make a lot of sense, but the issues start to show when we get to her character arc. When she decides to betray her master in episode 4, and turn herself into the Jedi it doesn’t feel natural. On paper I could see how it could kind of make sense, she wanted revenge on the Jedi because she thought they killed her entire family including Osha but with the revelation that Osha is alive her need to reconnect with her sister takes precedence. However, it doesn’t come across as a natural course for her character development to take because we didn’t really get to know enough about Mae beforehand for this to come across as making sense for her character. That has a lasting negative chain effect on her character arc up until the final episode.

This brings me to Osha, the show does a much better job with her characterization and other than the weird opening to episode 4, it does a much better job of seeding her character arc through the show to where it makes sense. Her feelings of loss, her anger at her sister, her failure to become a Jedi all of this stuff is written decently, which unfortunately brings me to the real reason the characters don’t really work as well as they should have, Amandla Stenberg’s performance. I haven’t seen them in much but I really liked them as an actor in the stuff I have seen. They were fantastic as Rue in The Hunger Games, and their performance in The Hate U Give was incredibly nuanced and raw, but they don’t do that great of a job here. Maybe it’s because of the dialogue writing which seems to be trying to emulate George Lucas’s way of writing dialogue in places, but the acting for both characters mostly comes across as stilted throughout much of the series. There are places where her acting is good and on point, but because she is ostensibly the main character having stilted acting muddles the character arc both characters are supposed to have even more.

This brings me to the other issue that hampers the series, the pacing. For better and worse this is very much a Disney+ streaming series in that the show is too long for its own good. Like so many other series this show feels like a movie that was forced to be artificially stretched out into a series due to the Disney overlord’s demanding more content to get people to subscribe to Disney+. Now I have no idea whether or not this is true, for all I know it was always pitched as an 8 episode series and they just didn’t do a good enough job of writing that amount of episodes but it still feels that way. The episodes have the issue of both being too short, and not feeling like they have enough happening in them at the same time. I think episodes 4 and 6 suffer from this predicament the most in that despite being relatively short it doesn’t feel like enough happens in them to justify the runtime. The 2 exceptions to this rule are episodes 5 and 8. With episode 5 it’s because despite being really short it’s packed full of action and things going on, and with episode 8 it’s because it’s one of the longer episodes in the series and also has a lot going on in it because it’s the culmination of the series. If the rest of the episodes had enough material in them as those 2 we would be having a much different discussion. I also think that making this a weekly release was a mistake and that they should’ve dropped all 8 episodes as a binge as I feel that watching all episodes at once would’ve worked better. That brings me to the biggest issue which is the structure of the series with the 2 flashback episodes.

The first flashback episode shows the events mostly from Osha’s point of view and adds even more questions to be answered such as what exactly are Mae and Osha. The problem with the flashback episodes is their placement in the series. On paper putting the first flashback as episode three after we’ve introduced all of the characters and the full scope of the conflict makes sense, and putting the final flashback episode in episode 7 right before the finale, with the final events of episode 6 being what they are makes sense, but in practice it completely ruins the pacing and buildup to that point. Putting the first flashback in episode 3 instead ends up putting the story to a halt just as it was starting to ramp up and build momentum, and putting the second flashback in episode 7 makes the series feel as if it won’t be able to conclude it’s story in the final episode. Also separating the flashback was also a mistake as both don’t really feel substantial enough on their own. The 2 flashback episodes should’ve been combined into 1 episode and I think then it should’ve been placed either as the first episode or putting right after episode 5 would’ve been the better way to go.

All that being said I did enjoy the show as a whole and I think the finale was really good and really ties the whole show together really well. I really loved what the show did with Sol in revealing that he really did all of this for himself, he told himself he was doing it to save Osha and Mae, but his actions really show that he was doing it more to prove the force vergence was real. While he tries to justify his actions as being to save Osha and Mae, and that he didn’t do anything wrong, it’s clear everything was really to satisfy his own ego. The fight scenes also continue to be excellent, the fight between Mae and Osha was really good, and I think it helps that because it’s an action sequence they’re allowed to use stunt doubles. I think the two best performances in the show were Sol and Qimir. Lee Jung-jae and Manny Jacinto are fantastic throughout and give incredibly nuanced performances and they’re the glue that helps keep the show together. After finishing the show I feel like the story, despite being hampered by pacing issues and some weak performances, ended up being pretty good and satisfying. Also, I think that The Acolyte should’ve been a movie instead of a series, but if it had to have been a series I don’t think it shouldn’t have been an 8 episode series but a 6 episode series. If I had to restructure the show I would’ve combined episodes 3 and 7 into one long flashback episode, and I’d combine episodes 4 and 5 into one episode as well. Episodes 1 and 2 would be the same episode 3 would be the combined episodes 4 and 5 Day/Night, episode 4 would be the full flashback episode Destiny/Choice and then episodes 5 and 6 would be the original episodes 6 and 8. I’ll probably make another post once I finish a rewatch but I did enjoy my time with The Acolyte and I’m looking forward to the various fan edits that will inevitably come out as I really feel condensing it down into a movie will do wonders for the story.

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Mixed feelings about this season finale (and the show as a whole, just like all the other Star Wars shows).

We still don’t know the Sith names of Qimir or creepy guy in the cave, so I actually still think Qimir is Plagueis and they just made his master a Muun to throw fans off.

I guess this also means that the reported Knights of the Old Republic movie from a few years ago is canceled now, since this finale borrows a lot from that story.

https://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/

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Great feedback all around, folks. I’m still writing some content for the review. It’s taking me a very long time to break down both the episode and season as a whole so I’ll have to push my in-depth review to tomorrow. Writing a big post for a new thread as well to generate some discussion of the many unique desired futures of Star Wars.

Regardless of what we individually think about the show, it’s undeniable that the last 2 months have been… monumental for the brand. For better or for worse, this show generated attention like nothing since the peak Sequels/Mando finale. Engagement statistics show it as the 2nd highest moment since Disney’s purchase, so we’ve definitely just lived through something significant in some way. Just trying to break down what it all could possibly mean.

(The Force Awakens) Heirs of the Force | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Last Jedi) Fate of the Jedi | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Rise of Skywalker) Legacy of the Force | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Bad Batch) Cinematic Version | A More Mature Edit

(The Mandalorian+Boba) The Way of Mandalore | A Compilation Edit

(Kenobi) | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

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After Ahsoka I’ve stuck to my guns and waited for it to be finished to assess whether it’s worth my time, but in this case I can’t see anything of real value. Looks like they squandered their first real foray into a new time period just like they wasted the whole “new galaxy” thing. Beyond Andor S2 I can’t imagine this downward spiral ending any time soon.

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The finale was again confusing if you consider the main characters (the twins and Smilo Ren). They are not consistent and have unclear motivations, making them uninteresting.

And then you have poorly explained moments like Sol targeting Mae’s ship and the Basil sabotaging Sol’s ship. Both actions are unclear.

Only Sol had a fully developed story in my view, and that makes for a very underwhelming series.

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Hal 9000 said:

Yeah, why was the gopher man sabotaging the ship? They didn’t make any sense to me at all.

I don’t know, but I read it as Basil being symbolically the good little angel of the show, the only person thinking straight. He knew Mae was up to no good and was the only one able to detect her, but also we saw both in episode 6 him being like uh oh what is Sol doing when he turned off the transceiver, and in the finale as well when he appeared to be targeting Mae’s escape ship. Sol’s acting irrationally as we see from all his other actions, whatever he was doing wasn’t going to work out well and Basil could smell it…

Easily the most intuitive explanation. Interesting what the creator will say if she’s asked about it though. Her interviews she’s been doing every week have been incredibly interesting reads every time. Leslye Headland is a true sw geek and she shares quite liberally about the artistic decisions behind the show, I highly recommend reading some of those for anybody curious about any decision in the show.

reylo?

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4throck said:

The finale was again confusing if you consider the main characters (the twins and Smilo Ren). They are not consistent and have unclear motivations, making them uninteresting.

And then you have poorly explained moments like Sol targeting Mae’s ship and the Basil sabotaging Sol’s ship. Both actions are unclear.

Only Sol had a fully developed story in my view, and that makes for a very underwhelming series.

Sol (as has been shown throughout the series) acts on impulse and emotion (not very good for a Jedi), but with Mae escaping, he didn’t want to risk Mae getting to Osha before him, as she obviously knew the truth at this point. So in an act of impulse, he was going to try and shoot Mae to stop her from getting to Osha.

Basil sabotaging the ship was to save Mae.

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I’ll do another analysis of viewership numbers in a few weeks once another few data points from Nielsen come out, so instead of a preface this week, I instead made another thread about the future of Star Wars in a post-Acolyte world where we’re discussing potential storylines following this conclusion. Let’s finish this show out with my last review until the holiday season with Skeleton Crew!

The Acolyte - Episode 8: The Acolyte (I’m not repeating myself, that’s what this episode is called!)

For reference, I do not use the modern review scale of 7.5 being “average”. A 5 is average. Refer to this scale for all of my ratings. I am going to be reviewing this episode individually, and also giving the entire show a final rating in each category.

scale

Pacing and Structure

Without the intro and credits, we received 41 minutes and 21 seconds of new content in the conclusion. That brings the entire show to a runtime of 4 hours, 27 minutes, and 15 seconds, averaging ~33 minutes/episode. I was much more pleased with the runtime this week as it was well above average. It is astonishing how much more complete each episode feels when it’s not 26 minutes like in previous weeks. The pacing got off to a rough start with a jarring opening that didn’t feel like it flowed naturally from last week. It directly continued a scene from 2 weeks ago, and the flashback week completely disrupted the flow of that cliffhanger. I don’t think it’s a good move to rely on answering cliffhanger endings from multiple weeks prior. But once we got through the awkward opening and intro logo, things started to move smoothly with Mae’s escape from the ship. Past the 10-minute mark, we get some attempts at tension building by “slow” scenes of Vernestra talking to a senator, Osha and Qimir talking, and Sol wandering Brendock. These 10 minutes before the fight scene starts aren’t a bad idea, but I did think they were drawn out without adding anything we didn’t already know, and they ended up derailing some of the excitement. Once the action begins with the lightsaber duel, we’re brought back to life, but then hampered again by a much slower and repetitive Mae/Osha discussion and spar. The audience’s interest is most definitely in the Sol and Qimir duel, so the cuts back to slow conversations were not interesting. After an entertaining battle, we get WAY too long of a walking sequence with Vernestra and her squad. Her character takes up about 25% of the screen time in this episode, and I have consistently found her to be the dullest part of the entire series. She did play an important role in this episode, so I don’t fault them for giving her proper plot impact, but every scene she’s in just moves at snail speed. I thought we were finally going to see her do something other than sulk around hallways and have her confront Qimir for a duel with that heavily marketed lightwhip… but no, she just talks and walks. Overall, the pacing here did feel like it led to a conclusion and it was better done than the average Acolyte episode. I’d put this in a similar category to episodes 3 & 7, where I do like the overall runtime, but certain scenes are paced too slowly. Due to the very short average runtime and awkward pacing throughout the entire season, I’d give the whole show a 3/10 on the pacing.

Structurally, this episode worked well as a conclusion. The placements to get everyone back on Brendock where it all began is a good idea, and this definitely felt like it was meant to wrap up a season. Not a series, however. I am not going to include any definitive future prospective seasons in this review, but I have to judge it both as a self-contained story and as a potential setup for future stories. This finale 100% relied on cameos for its biggest moments. You shouldn’t put two major characters in here for 3-5 seconds each just for flippant reasons. These moments felt impactful for the few seconds, but without any payoff whatsoever, it doesn’t feel like they belonged in the episode itself other than to tease for a future season. Especially having the most prominent one happen 25% into the episode, only never to be referenced again ended up as more of a distraction and false anticipation for the next 30 minutes, ultimately leaving me feeling let down when the most interesting concept of the whole show is nothing more than the tiniest snippet. Aside from the cameos, the episode was structured well with a clear beginning, middle, and end, so I appreciate the completeness of the overarching picture, even if many of the specifics are left unresolved. Unfortunately, I cannot give a high grade to the overall structure of the show as it is genuinely one of the worst-structured storylines I have ever seen. I thought the entire mystery box plot mechanic failed miserably, the flashback episodes completely derailed any bit of momentum we developed, and I thought this entire series would have functioned much better as a single 2.5-hour film or perhaps a 2-part release of 2 hours each. So due to the terrible placements of the flashback episodes, and multiple episodes feeling like they should have been combined into one (1 & 2, 3 & 7, 4 & 5), I would give the structure of the show as a whole a 2/10.

Dialogue and Writing Quality

As the show concluded, the main thing that stuck out to me in this category is that all dialogue from every character sounds very much the same. Listen to the cadence of how Sol speaks vs how Osha speaks vs how Vernestra speaks. They deliver extremely slow and deliberate lines, taking time to emotionally emphasize certain words. Even Qimir, Indara, and Jecki, all speak relatively similarly. Yes, they choose different words and have minor personality differences, but the deliveries are quite common. Can you remember a moment of fast-talking high-energy conversation where lots of words are said? The subtitle file for this show is going to be very short. Anyway, this episode remains middle of the road here as the show has done as a whole. It’s not trying to accomplish anything intellectual with the dialogue and simply serves to communicate basic exposition and thoughts. It’s quite elementary, even down to someone like Vernestra who is seemingly involved in the political realm and you’d think she’d be able to deliver more artistic or charismatic sentences, but her lines are along the lines of, “The man who killed your mother was a Jedi. He was my friend. And he did terrible things.” That’s as basic as you could possibly get when trying to communicate an idea. There is no nuance. There are no descriptive, softening, or emotive words. Adjectives are banned. “Why use many word, when few word do trick?” Most of the dialogue in the show looks like that, just trying to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible without any nuance or emotive words. I mentioned this in previous weeks when disagreements arose. There are never any thought-out objections to ideas or plans. Someone may briefly voice a disagreement, but actual discussions and back and forth are non-existent. For example, in a supposedly very emotional moment, Osha asks Sol, “Why didn’t you tell me?” And he responds, “They would have sent you away. You were too old. They never would have let you become a Jedi.” (I don’t even understand this dialogue because she did become a Jedi at that same old age? Not sure what hiding the mother’s death had to do with her age or her ability to train as a Jedi) Yes, Sol communicates proper emotion with his tone and facial expressions, but the vocabulary of these characters rarely matches that. We need some additional human language in between there. Anything at all to create a more natural speaking tone and conversational approach. Overall, this show was below average in the dialogue but I can’t say it was actively bad, just felt empty and void of deeper thought. I’m giving it a 4/10 in this category.

Now we have the complete storyline… I have reserved a great deal of criticism for the writing due to the “mystery box” nature of this plot. I wanted to give it a fair chance to unfold and not make any pre-judgments. Now that we have the full picture (save some possible future connections that aren’t exactly relevant to the sequence of events here), I thought that the specifics of the storyline in this episode, as well as the show as a whole, were an absolute mess that forced you to turn your brain off, ditch all logic and reasoning, and not look at or think about any of this deeply because it simply cannot and will not hold up to any degree of scrutiny. When I squint, I can see the big-picture story Leslye wanted to tell. I can even more clearly see the themes and messages she wanted to communicate. But on camera, on my TV screen, this entire show seemed like it was the first draft copy on a whiteboard and the connective tissue hadn’t even been written yet. The big-picture events are here, and I actually think they could have worked well, but the intermediary glue and connecting plot devices in no way justify or explain how the big-picture events happen. I could write endlessly about what I don’t think worked in the writing department, but for the sake of time and sanity, I want to focus on three main points.

  1. The Culmination of the Jedi Cover-up - This whole show has painted Vernestra as some sort of independent agent with the Order, able to unilaterally make decisions and act without any oversight. Her entire role here continually prompted my brain to ask “How is she allowed to do this?” and “Why is no one else getting involved?” The way this played out with her ability to constantly put together “secret” teams of 6-12-man Jedi squads and deploy them across the galaxy without Council oversight significantly undermined the established hierarchy of the Jedi Order. Then the episode’s conclusion, Vern convenes a meeting with the Supreme Chancellor and several Senate members, during which she fabricates a story implicating Sol. The blatant lie is presented without any pushback or skepticism from other knowledgeable Jedi or senate members, even though it’s been presented as if this knowledge is not at all secretive. Many seem to have an understanding of what happened, yet this beyond-out-of-the-blue explanation goes through this committee without challenge, and also somehow through Yoda. The episode further suggests that many Jedi are either complicit in or oblivious to this deception. This scenario assumes a level of collective ignorance or compliance that is difficult to reconcile with the established character and vigilance of the Jedi Order in this time period. The notion that the Council would not make it the #1 priority to investigate and verify the causes of the deaths of about a dozen Jedi, especially when linked to such a significant cover-up, strained all plausibility. Given the interconnected nature of the Jedi community, it is just inconceivable that such significant events would go unnoticed or unexamined. The deaths of multiple Jedi would inevitably become a major topic of concern for hundreds if not thousands of Jedi who interacted with so many of these fallen brothers and sisters, especially since we’re talking about murders of both Masters and Younglings… This episode outright asks us viewers to accept the reality that no other Jedi, many of whom would logically be aware of at least some of the true events, would speak out against Vern’s falsehoods. Sol is supposedly the killer, and when it is talked about, you’re telling me no one would be like, “Hey, uh… wasn’t Sol actually here on Coruscant in this very temple when Indara was killed a few days ago…?” “Hasn’t he been training the Younglings right here in this room?” “Yeah, he was showing me how to meditate at noon 3 days ago during the murder! Someone go check the schedule and the cameras!” Not to mention, didn’t we have multiple witnesses that IDed Mae, who is also now in custody at the temple? How does the Council not seem to care about any of this mountain of evidence? How are Jedi being killed en masse and they’re turning a blind eye to all of it? How does Grandmaster Yoda not sense any of this and deploy the most prominent Jedi Masters to investigate? He sensed Anakin killing Tusken Raiders across the galaxy, yet he can’t sense the massive conspiracy of murders happening right under his nose? This is not even a time when the Dark Side is “clouding” the vision of the Jedi. Sidious was responsible for that and Yoda is seeing these visions through that cloud, THAT’S what we’re supposed to see as Yoda struggling, but here he looks like a complete chump having no control over the Order. I don’t even understand what Vern feels like she needs to cover up? Is she hiding ALL of the truth simply because she still cares about… Qimir? Her former apprentice, apparently, as that was suddenly revealed (but extremely obvious, like every other “reveal” in this show). I genuinely don’t understand what is wrong with the truth here. Implicating Sol as a fallen Jedi seems WAY worse than just about any other explanation. Here is a short list of everyone who can easily give first-hand eyewitness accounts that directly contradict this lie:

Tasi Lowa, Yord’s Apprentice who was investigating Indara’s killer in episode 1. She investigated the initial murder scene and interviewed eyewitnesses of Mae’s attack on Indara. Every single piece of evidence pointed to Osha/Mae, nothing could’ve possibly indicated Sol. Can you imagine how bewildered she would be to hear this news? Surely she’d think something was amuck?

The bar owner from episode 1 who positively ID’ed one of the twins and dozens of other bar patrons who saw Mae walk up to Indara and threaten her in a combat stance.

The entire outpost of Jedi on Olega who are WITH Sol the entire time when Torbin is discovered to be dead.

Eyewitnesses on Olega like the young girl who was bribed to let Mae into the Jedi outpost.

Ki-Adi-Mundi and everyone in the room during that scene who watches footage of Mae ATTACKING Sol. Did Vern delete this footage…? Even assuming so, isn’t that MORE suspicious since multiple Jedi would testify to the exact same thing? Sol was not using a single act of aggression against Mae. CLEARLY, she was the aggressor trying to kill him. Like what possible explanation is there to point to Sol as a deranged fallen murderer according to the dozens to hundreds of pieces of evidence from Olega? And if the cover-up is that Sol used Mae to murder the Jedi, that’s even more unbelievable because everyone in this show has commented about how she’s not that strong and looks slow, she’s way outclassed by Sol without a weapon on camera, yet we’re supposed to believe she has murdered 3-4 masters and an entire squad of elite Knights in lightsaber combat. No.

Bazil. He is friendly with the Jedi and saw EVERYTHING. There is no way he’d defend Vern here.

Everyone on the Brendok Jedi team that saw how Sol didn’t have any self-inflicted wounds, and then suddenly Sol’s body is gone and didn’t return to Coruscant so they’re unable to perform an autopsy. Did this group of 11 other Jedi not discuss amongst themselves like “Hey, did you move Sol’s body?” “No… Did you?” “No…” everyone glares suspiciously at Vernestra

Any Jedi who arrested and processed Mae. Since apparently, they believed she murdered Sol, they told her as much, and then Vernestra waited until she was on Coruscant to make up this lie.

Every Jedi in the Temple who can confirm Sol’s whereabouts at the time of all these murders. Folks, this is not like Sol is within a 30-minute drive and could sneak out, kill a master, and make it back to Youngling Class in time (though this show does indicate starships can enter orbit and teleport across the galaxy in mere seconds). The accusation is that he was stealing starships, or has some unregistered personal starship, flying across the galaxy, killing Indara, sneaking around Olega and being involved in tons of other events and killing Torbin, sneaking to Khofar and killing half a dozen Jedi and Kelnacca, then flying to Brendock to kill himself. Sol. SOL. The softest, sweetest teacher… COME ON.

Of course, Vern knows the actual killers of Osha/Qimir could easily present evidence and wreck her entire scheme if desired. And we’re supposed to believe Yoda looks at all of this, gives Vern a thumbs up, and moves on.

Any way that I try to understand this cover-up, I cannot begin to fathom how it’s believed by even a single member of the Council, let alone the entire Order and Senate. Sorry, but you are required to suspend reality and sensible writing in order to accept this cover-up plot device. It makes absolutely no sense in-universe. It’s a good idea for a story on paper, but the idea itself was not fleshed out in any sensible way.

  1. Sol’s Guilt - Poor Sol. Read my earlier reviews and you’ll see that he was a character I actually liked for much of this show until they turned him into an absolute idiot here in the end. He confesses to Osha that he murdered her mother without trying to explain why he did what he did. I thought he had indisputable probable cause so this entire arc has never resonated with me. Mother Aniseya, a dark side using witch, was turning into a demon-looking monster with sharp teeth, dissolving a child who he thought was Osha (who wanted to be freed from this world), there was mention of the fire, and thus Sol was trying to protect Osha, as well as himself and Torbin who had been previously violently attacked. So let’s say even if Sol would 99% be justified for his actions in a court of law, even in a Senate tribunal outside the Jedi Council, let’s just say he still carries some guilt from that night because, yeah, I guess it would be traumatic (though the events here do not seem that much greater than any ordinary Jedi mission where death occurs. These guys train their entire lives for situations exactly like this and have presumably seen worse already as a Jedi Master). So he has been wanting to tell Osha the truth and he’s been wanting to explain himself to Mae for 16 years. So here he finally gets the chance to talk to his beloved Osha, the closest thing he will ever have to a daughter, and out of nowhere she just murders him by force choke without even wanting any kind of explanation about why he confessed to killing her mother. The man she has looked up to as a father figure for years upon years for most of her life. And Sol, being an idiot, lets her kill him, lets her fall to the dark side, and ruin the rest of her life by walking away with a child-killer. Even if you want to say it’s “loving” in some twisted way for Sol to just let Osha “be herself” or something, Sol watched Qimir butcher a squad of Jedi like a day or two ago. He watched him gut Jecki, a child. Does he not care enough for Osha to stop her from being seduced to the dark side by a deranged mass murderer? I get that Leslye wanted to tell his story to show “flaws” in the Jedi or something like that (and see the KOTOR comic line if you want an actually fantastic deployment of such an idea), but like above, the idea looks like an idea on paper and not one that makes sense as a sequence of events in a very interconnected plot. Sol’s entire character arc was a massive letdown

  2. Mae/Osha’s Fate, and the Light v Dark - Why doesn’t Mae just decide to stay with Osha in the end? After ALL this, Mae is just going to give up everything, her memories, her very existence essentially, all so Osha can go train with Qimir in her place? The whole show Mae has been killing people and causing chaos to get what she wants, and now what she wants is for Osha to… replace her in life itself? I guess Osha has been dealing with this anger inside of her all this time, so she fell to the dark side in a few hours and went from a sympathetic sister to a cold-blooded murderer, willing to then mind-wipe her own sister in order to get what she personally wants, which is… training in the dark side? With the man to murdered her friend Jecki, who apparently she had at least a slight romantic interest in. On paper, this seems to show that the dark side is extremely corruptive and it looks like this should be a dark and depressing storyline, but the tone of all of these events is not at all reflective of that. The tone seems to want us to sympathize with Osha and see the Jedi as in error, and Qimir as justified. The show attempts to paint every good decision as bad and every bad decision as good. The true heroes are Mae and Osha because of their love for each other (though it’s not loving at all to let your sister get mind-wiped) I’ve talked about flip-flopping character motivation every single week, and this was just the culmination of it all. Nothing in this storyline of the twins made sense up until this point so it’s unsurprising, but I would have at least had some respect for the plot if it somehow figured out a way to have it where Qimir got the twins to fight each other for the right to be his apprentice. That would be the true nature of the dark side. Let’s show what a real Sith apprentice would be willing to do to get that coveted spot. I think the arc of the protagonist of this show is beyond any sort of rational explanation when you try to break down what each sister wanted. I don’t think there is a human on earth that could sit down right now, and beginning til the end tell me what Mae wanted and did and what Osha wanted and did and come up with a coherent explanation of these events. Again, I see thematically what Leslye wanted to do here, but the events are incoherent nonsense.

I need to stop. I could expand this list 10 more points rehashing previous criticisms that didn’t culminate well here. But I think I’ll just move on. Look, this show does some things well, its higher ratings are in other categories below. Everything in this show isn’t terrible, but the writing and overarching storyline truly demand you to turn your brain off and not think. At the end of the day, all writing and storylines have both objective and subjective elements, but for me, I have to be honest and give this show a 1/10 in this category.

Production Quality and Creative Direction

This show remains rather small in scale, and we have gone to the same location multiple times now, so there’s not always a ton to comment on in terms of new production and creativity. The standout design was certainly the asteroid/ice field surrounding Brendok. The concept was great and served as a unique obstacle to creating entertainment value in this escape sequence. It was certainly appreciated rather than just having an empty orbit for the setting. I can’t say it looked incredible or anything though, as when you review this multiple times, you can see the editing tricks they used in order to mask some of the challenges of such a setting. The objects in space are extremely blurred, which makes sense for a high-speed chase, but it doesn’t do anything to help the beauty of the scene. Even with a vast field, it still manages to feel small with tons of close-up shots both inside the ships and outside. The green screen work with the actors was not very smooth, and the depth perception was very wrong when you’d see a shot of Sol or Mae up against a cockpit window. The ship designs looked good, though they functioned more like cars driving on the road rather than free-floating spaceships. One of the shots reminds me of the movie Cars when Mater and Lighting go “tractor tipping” and the farming vehicle tries to run them over. Overall, it was a good sequence, but not stunning in any way. The various senate chamber rooms looked extremely industrial rather than diplomatic and had many odd colors inside. Tons of purples and reds and dark blues, I just didn’t understand what the aesthetic was. The fight sequences had great VFX throughout and continue to be the production highlight of the show. I’ll mention it here as well, while we only saw a glimpse, the Plagueis model looked great. Perhaps the CGI wasn’t perfectly crisp and textured, but they didn’t necessarily need to do that here. Many had big concerns about how a Sith Muun would look and some were calling for a species change because it would look “too goofy”, but his model was really great and I’d love to see it utilized again in some manner. The wipes and overall editing of this episode were less bad than previous weeks which were the worst I have ever seen in Star Wars, so I’m glad to see that corrected here. There were a few distracting cuts, but much improved from the lows. Overall, this show has done an adequate job of production quality. Nothing has been spectacular, there have been some low moments, but also some that I think perfectly served their purposes. Carried by the combat VFX and lessened by poor green screen integration and distracting post-production editing, I give the visual quality of this show a 6/10.

As far as the creative direction of the episode, again I have to give props for the very competent integration of a Sith Muun. The music, CGI model, and movement all looked very good. The ruined Brendock set did a good job of showing natural overgrowth over the decades, and the sets did a solid job of being transformed. I was quite disappointed in the lack of creativity in the designs of Vernestra’s Jedi squad, however. There are 12 Jedi standing in this plaza, and every single one of them is human aside from Vern. I thought I maybe could see some tiny horns on one that make him look like a Zabrak, but it’s very clear, and even then, it’s a human-adjacent species. They all have some very wacky hairstyles, face paint, and tattoos, but it’s a bunch of very obviously dressed-up humans. We got a Kel Dor in a previous battle, and these Jedi do not do a single thing so I’m not sure why the alien designs are so stifled here. Such a perfect chance to feature 75+% alien species from the Order, but it’s so bland. Additionally, I do not enjoy this trend of every single Jedi having copy-paste yellow-brown robes. The PT did great with the diversity of costumes and colors on robes, and I’m not sure if this is purely a High Republic thing, but if it is, I can’t understand why that suddenly changes in 80 years. The other costume I need to highlight is Vern’s “wedding gown” outfit she dons at the end in order to look… important? I don’t know, but it looked like a placemat for my dinner table with some roughly sewn symbols on it. I have listened to the costume designer discuss her ideas in interviews, and I’m simply not a fan of her vision for Star Wars costumes. It looks like highfalutin posh goofiness instead of historic Star Wars aesthetics. The clash of Vern’s robes on her black and red “emperor’s chair” was obviously thematically intentional, but sometimes it just doesn’t need to be that deep. George Lucas made Luke’s 2nd lightsaber green because the blue was blending into the Tatooine sky too much when it was blue. Sometimes just make things look good rather than going way over the top. The Sol v Qimir was wonderfully choreographed once more and I hope to see more from this team, though I’m interested to see if they’re able to expand beyond the kung-fu style that marked this show. I do have to point out that I despise the usage of slow-mo in combat scenes like this. It looks terrible and things are way cooler when we see their speed in real time. Imagine the PT duels cutting to slow motion and spinning cameras when Maul kicks Obi-Wan off a ledge or when Dooku cuts off Anakin’s arm… In contrast to the mostly great Qimir duel, the Mae v Osha fistfight was the worst battle sequence of the series. That’s obviously a difficult concept to pull off with one actor and a stunt double/CGI, but it did not look good in any capacity. This is a hard category to score overall, because for the most part, the fighting was the best we’ve seen in decades, but the general creative inspiration was missing. I saw next to nothing that made me feel like I was experiencing a new era for the first time. I suppose it’s so close to the PT that it can’t look increasingly different, but it also didn’t look like the PT. I don’t think the overall ideas for creative design meshed well, especially compared to the concept art that has come out, it just missed the mark and nothing looked visually awe-inspiring. Overall, since I have included choreography in this category from the beginning as combat is an art, this category gets a 6/10.

Performances and Characters

Amandla Stenberg just could not deliver the depth of performance needed to sell this episode, and in the role of Osha and Mae, it has severely hampered my ability to connect with these characters. She genuinely tries to display emotions like anger and sadness, but fails to convey them realistically. If she had delivered a great performance with the twins, maybe I would have felt something differently about their arc or at least been able to feel what they seemed to be feeling, but there was a true disconnect in the acting/directing here. At the end, when they’re saying goodbye, it’s obviously trying to make us feel sorrow for them, but I simply never do. I’m nothing more than bored as I watch yet another fip-floppy and wooden delivery. The flat performance of the primary protagonists of the show is one of the greatest failings of the series and of the finale in particular. The Acolyte really relied on her to deliver something special, and granted, it’s a very difficult task, but I have to be honest and admit she just doesn’t accomplish what was needed to sell it. Side characters like Lee Jung-jae and Jacinto are indisputably the stars of the show, even if the character motivations were very confounding at times, the performances made nearly every scene with them engaging. Compare any scene with Sol or Qimir to one where Osha and Mae are talking to each other and it’s day and night. Unfortunately, not many other actors were even given a chance to shine and I thought some of the talent was wasted. You bring in proven actors like Carrie Ann Moss, Dean-Charles Chapman, and Dafne Keen, yet they’re barely allowed to show their great skills. Whereas Rebecca Henerson as Vernestra was hired due to familial relations rather than talent as this character, and somehow surpasses Amandala for the stiffest and most boring performance I have seen in a very, very long time. I really would like to give this category a high score due to some phenomenal acting skills from a few characters, but half of the screen time goes to performances that are very low-rated so I have to score the acting of this show no higher than a 5/10.

Mae / Osha - An indecipherable mess of a character, where two distinct personalities are impossible to identify (I guess this lines up with them being one mind or something). Far too much screen time leading to the most boring scenes in the series, no discernable character arc, weak abilities, unbelievable actions, etc. 2/10

Master Sol - Massive potential with a fantastic start to the character. Unfortunately is completely ruined by the end, and I lose all sympathy for him due to idiotic decisions and weakness of will and spirit. It is impossible to look up to this character anymore after his conclusion. 4.5/10

Jecki Lon - Right when she was starting to get interesting, she was removed from the show. A bit wooden, but did well enough for me to enjoy the few scenes she was in, and had a cool duel. 6/10

Yord Fandar - A bit weaker with Jecki on the interest level, was kind of intentionally written as a stuck-up dumbass and not supposed t be very likable. Somehow got a cult following on social media, I guess because of his body? This character needed a lot more growth, he was a nothing burger. 4/10

Master Kelnacca - A huge wasted opportunity. A wookiee Jedi master is a great idea, but he wasn’t even a real character. No discernable traits or personality, no spotlight, first combat scene was cut, and we barely see him after the second. Just wasted all around. 3.5/10

Master Torbin - A complete failure of a character. I cannot begin to understand his decision-making as a padawan, how he excelled so quickly as a Jedi after the events of the flashback to become a master, and why he decided to take the vow and kill himself. Truly a mess of writing here. 1/10

Master Vernestra - Stifled by an absolutely atrocious performance, given lines and actions that do nothing to develop her, setting up an impossible to believe cover up, marketed with a lightwhip only for it to get used for 0.8 seconds to kill a CGI beetle, and locked up every scene she was in. 1/10

Master Indara - Extremely boring Jedi portrayal, no-nonsense but also no personality. Not much to say in terms of character arc or growth. She goes by the books and dies in under 20 minutes of screen time throughout the whole season. 3/10

Qimir - Bright spot in this show, carried by great acting and mysterious aura. Not a fan of the costume design whatsoever, but was an intriguing character nonetheless. Background was not explored nearly enough, and I truly wanted to see any sort of exploration into his background or dark side nature. This entire show should’ve been about him. He should’ve been The Acolyte. 7/10

Mother Aniseya - Solid performance and interesting voodoo-esque cult leader. Nonsensical decisions lead to her death and head-scratchers aren’t good for making for interesting characters. 4/10

Mother Koril - Extremely grating and annoying character, unreasonable, hampered by poor acting, character disappears with no arc whatsoever 2/10

Overall, there were many forgettable or terrible characters, one half-great character, and one really good one. Show gets a 3/10 on it’s characters.

Conclusion

Finale Episode rating: 3.6/10 (I’d call it “pretty weak”, but not “terrible” or “decent”)

Pros:

Sensible episode structure giving ways for all characters to end up where it all started
Another great lightsaber duel
Strong emphasis on the themes it was trying to convey (even if I disagree with them, I recognize that it communicated them)

Cons:

Extremely disappointing and unsatisfying payoffs to mysteries
Character motivations and arcs that are inexplicable
Obnoxious cameos and “tune in for season 2!” revelations

Best scenes:

  1. Qimir v Sol duel
  2. Ship chase in ice field
  3. Ending montage structure (didn’t like the specific events that occurred, but it flowed nicely and looked good)

Worst Scenes:

  1. Vernestra explains the cover up
  2. Sol lets himself die
  3. Mae / Osha talk under the tree and mind wipe

(Special mention: I got physically repulsed when Osha and Qimir held hands. STOP with these creepy sexual harassment-looking relationships with our villains. Reylo, Qimirsha, GROSS. Genuinely, deeply, unsettling and repulsive. The fan art from people who like the ST and The Acolyte wanting to “ship” these abusive relationships with male murderers and young women in power-imbalanced roles blows my mind away. I have to pretend it’s not real life where people actually support this shit.)

Series Rating: 2.2/10 (I’d call it “Very bad”, but not “unwatchable” or “kind of bad”)

(The Force Awakens) Heirs of the Force | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Last Jedi) Fate of the Jedi | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Rise of Skywalker) Legacy of the Force | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Bad Batch) Cinematic Version | A More Mature Edit

(The Mandalorian+Boba) The Way of Mandalore | A Compilation Edit

(Kenobi) | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

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I’d love to reply to every single bit of that, I’ll just say different strokes 😄

An interesting tidbit from recent interviews with Leslye and Manny is that there was an idea to have them kiss at the end (and they shot it, even!), but it didn’t feel earned and the actors suggested the hand hold we see in the final version. Genuinely perfect wrap-up of their arcs for this season

reylo?

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KumoNin said:

I’d love to reply to every single bit of that, I’ll just say different strokes 😄

I’d definitely welcome it! Always appreciate different perspectives from people with different backgrounds from me, and perhaps different reasons for liking Star Wars in the first place than me. Some of what I say in my review I consider objective (such as poor scene transition effects, low-quality CGI/green screen, structural issues in episodic formatting), and other parts I certainly acknowledge as a subjective opinion (whether a character had a satisfying arc/conclusion, if an actor’s performance was done well enough, how it meshes with other Star Wars themes).

An interesting tidbit from recent interviews with Leslye and Manny is that there was an idea to have them kiss at the end (and they shot it, even!), but it didn’t feel earned and the actors suggested the hand hold we see in the final version. Genuinely perfect wrap-up of their arcs for this season

Haha, well I’m glad it was at least toned down from that… I’d be curious to at least hear your opinion on 2 points as someone who seems like you enjoyed the show.

  1. Regarding this romance, I truly have difficulty seeing how these types of “relationships” aren’t seen as anything other than abusive Stockholm syndrome reactions. Osha has no idea who Qimir is, and within a 48-hour span she: watches him murder her colleagues for the given reason of “they can’t tell anyone I exist”, is kidnapped while unconscious and taken to an unknown planet and placed in a cave, is exposed to his nudity, is encouraged to kill her former mentor in cold blood by embracing the dark side. I understand dark side romances, they can be twisted, but it really seems like the natural reaction would be for Osha to HATE Qimir and want to kill him as she falls rather than forgive him for all of that insanity and want to serve him. How does an ending of mutual attraction/interest/respect make sense to you as a “genuinely perfect wrap-up of their arcs”? My mind is unable to even go there for a second, I can’t fathom it.

  2. Is there a justification for the cover-up lie that makes sense to you that I am missing? Or is it just something you don’t mind as a “flaw” in the show and can look past it? To me, writing consistency and coherency is the #1 most important aspect in my enjoyment of a production. 10x more than any battle or VFX or setting or music or anything. So having this resolved/explained would do wonders for me.

(The Force Awakens) Heirs of the Force | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Last Jedi) Fate of the Jedi | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Rise of Skywalker) Legacy of the Force | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Bad Batch) Cinematic Version | A More Mature Edit

(The Mandalorian+Boba) The Way of Mandalore | A Compilation Edit

(Kenobi) | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

Author
Time

KumoNin said:

Hal 9000 said:

Yeah, why was the gopher man sabotaging the ship? They didn’t make any sense to me at all.

I don’t know, but I read it as Basil being symbolically the good little angel of the show, the only person thinking straight. He knew Mae was up to no good and was the only one able to detect her, but also we saw both in episode 6 him being like uh oh what is Sol doing when he turned off the transceiver, and in the finale as well when he appeared to be targeting Mae’s escape ship. Sol’s acting irrationally as we see from all his other actions, whatever he was doing wasn’t going to work out well and Basil could smell it…

Easily the most intuitive explanation. Interesting what the creator will say if she’s asked about it though. Her interviews she’s been doing every week have been incredibly interesting reads every time. Leslye Headland is a true sw geek and she shares quite liberally about the artistic decisions behind the show, I highly recommend reading some of those for anybody curious about any decision in the show.

Right, he’s supposed to let the audience know who is supposed to be sympathetic or unsympathetic in case they didn’t get it. (They won’t get it because nothing makes any sense.)

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 (Edited)

Acbagel said:

  1. The Culmination of the Jedi Cover-up - This whole show has painted Vernestra as some sort of independent agent with the Order, able to unilaterally make decisions and act without any oversight. Her entire role here continually prompted my brain to ask “How is she allowed to do this?” and “Why is no one else getting involved?” The way this played out with her ability to constantly put together “secret” teams of 6-12-man Jedi squads and deploy them across the galaxy without Council oversight significantly undermined the established hierarchy of the Jedi Order. Then the episode’s conclusion, Vern convenes a meeting with the Supreme Chancellor and several Senate members, during which she fabricates a story implicating Sol. The blatant lie is presented without any pushback or skepticism from other knowledgeable Jedi or senate members, even though it’s been presented as if this knowledge is not at all secretive. Many seem to have an understanding of what happened, yet this beyond-out-of-the-blue explanation goes through this committee without challenge, and also somehow through Yoda. The episode further suggests that many Jedi are either complicit in or oblivious to this deception. This scenario assumes a level of collective ignorance or compliance that is difficult to reconcile with the established character and vigilance of the Jedi Order in this time period. The notion that the Council would not make it the #1 priority to investigate and verify the causes of the deaths of about a dozen Jedi, especially when linked to such a significant cover-up, strained all plausibility. Given the interconnected nature of the Jedi community, it is just inconceivable that such significant events would go unnoticed or unexamined. The deaths of multiple Jedi would inevitably become a major topic of concern for hundreds if not thousands of Jedi who interacted with so many of these fallen brothers and sisters, especially since we’re talking about murders of both Masters and Younglings… This episode outright asks us viewers to accept the reality that no other Jedi, many of whom would logically be aware of at least some of the true events, would speak out against Vern’s falsehoods. Sol is supposedly the killer, and when it is talked about, you’re telling me no one would be like, “Hey, uh… wasn’t Sol actually here on Coruscant in this very temple when Indara was killed a few days ago…?” “Hasn’t he been training the Younglings right here in this room?” “Yeah, he was showing me how to meditate at noon 3 days ago during the murder! Someone go check the schedule and the cameras!” Not to mention, didn’t we have multiple witnesses that IDed Mae, who is also now in custody at the temple? How does the Council not seem to care about any of this mountain of evidence? How are Jedi being killed en masse and they’re turning a blind eye to all of it? How does Grandmaster Yoda not sense any of this and deploy the most prominent Jedi Masters to investigate? He sensed Anakin killing Tusken Raiders across the galaxy, yet he can’t sense the massive conspiracy of murders happening right under his nose? This is not even a time when the Dark Side is “clouding” the vision of the Jedi. Sidious was responsible for that and Yoda is seeing these visions through that cloud, THAT’S what we’re supposed to see as Yoda struggling, but here he looks like a complete chump having no control over the Order. I don’t even understand what Vern feels like she needs to cover up? Is she hiding ALL of the truth simply because she still cares about… Qimir? Her former apprentice, apparently, as that was suddenly revealed (but extremely obvious, like every other “reveal” in this show). I genuinely don’t understand what is wrong with the truth here. Implicating Sol as a fallen Jedi seems WAY worse than just about any other explanation. Here is a short list of everyone who can easily give first-hand eyewitness accounts that directly contradict this lie:

Tasi Lowa, Yord’s Apprentice who was investigating Indara’s killer in episode 1. She investigated the initial murder scene and interviewed eyewitnesses of Mae’s attack on Indara. Every single piece of evidence pointed to Osha/Mae, nothing could’ve possibly indicated Sol. Can you imagine how bewildered she would be to hear this news? Surely she’d think something was amuck?

The bar owner from episode 1 who positively ID’ed one of the twins and dozens of other bar patrons who saw Mae walk up to Indara and threaten her in a combat stance.

The entire outpost of Jedi on Olega who are WITH Sol the entire time when Torbin is discovered to be dead.

Eyewitnesses on Olega like the young girl who was bribed to let Mae into the Jedi outpost.

Ki-Adi-Mundi and everyone in the room during that scene who watches footage of Mae ATTACKING Sol. Did Vern delete this footage…? Even assuming so, isn’t that MORE suspicious since multiple Jedi would testify to the exact same thing? Sol was not using a single act of aggression against Mae. CLEARLY, she was the aggressor trying to kill him. Like what possible explanation is there to point to Sol as a deranged fallen murderer according to the dozens to hundreds of pieces of evidence from Olega? And if the cover-up is that Sol used Mae to murder the Jedi, that’s even more unbelievable because everyone in this show has commented about how she’s not that strong and looks slow, she’s way outclassed by Sol without a weapon on camera, yet we’re supposed to believe she has murdered 3-4 masters and an entire squad of elite Knights in lightsaber combat. No.

Bazil. He is friendly with the Jedi and saw EVERYTHING. There is no way he’d defend Vern here.

Everyone on the Brendok Jedi team that saw how Sol didn’t have any self-inflicted wounds, and then suddenly Sol’s body is gone and didn’t return to Coruscant so they’re unable to perform an autopsy. Did this group of 11 other Jedi not discuss amongst themselves like “Hey, did you move Sol’s body?” “No… Did you?” “No…” everyone glares suspiciously at Vernestra

Any Jedi who arrested and processed Mae. Since apparently, they believed she murdered Sol, they told her as much, and then Vernestra waited until she was on Coruscant to make up this lie.

Every Jedi in the Temple who can confirm Sol’s whereabouts at the time of all these murders. Folks, this is not like Sol is within a 30-minute drive and could sneak out, kill a master, and make it back to Youngling Class in time (though this show does indicate starships can enter orbit and teleport across the galaxy in mere seconds). The accusation is that he was stealing starships, or has some unregistered personal starship, flying across the galaxy, killing Indara, sneaking around Olega and being involved in tons of other events and killing Torbin, sneaking to Khofar and killing half a dozen Jedi and Kelnacca, then flying to Brendock to kill himself. Sol. SOL. The softest, sweetest teacher… COME ON.

Of course, Vern knows the actual killers of Osha/Qimir could easily present evidence and wreck her entire scheme if desired. And we’re supposed to believe Yoda looks at all of this, gives Vern a thumbs up, and moves on.

Any way that I try to understand this cover-up, I cannot begin to fathom how it’s believed by even a single member of the Council, let alone the entire Order and Senate. Sorry, but you are required to suspend reality and sensible writing in order to accept this cover-up plot device. It makes absolutely no sense in-universe. It’s a good idea for a story on paper, but the idea itself was not fleshed out in any sensible way.

  1. Sol’s Guilt - Poor Sol. Read my earlier reviews and you’ll see that he was a character I actually liked for much of this show until they turned him into an absolute idiot here in the end. He confesses to Osha that he murdered her mother without trying to explain why he did what he did. I thought he had indisputable probable cause so this entire arc has never resonated with me. Mother Aniseya, a dark side using witch, was turning into a demon-looking monster with sharp teeth, dissolving a child who he thought was Osha (who wanted to be freed from this world), there was mention of the fire, and thus Sol was trying to protect Osha, as well as himself and Torbin who had been previously violently attacked. So let’s say even if Sol would 99% be justified for his actions in a court of law, even in a Senate tribunal outside the Jedi Council, let’s just say he still carries some guilt from that night because, yeah, I guess it would be traumatic (though the events here do not seem that much greater than any ordinary Jedi mission where death occurs. These guys train their entire lives for situations exactly like this and have presumably seen worse already as a Jedi Master). So he has been wanting to tell Osha the truth and he’s been wanting to explain himself to Mae for 16 years. So here he finally gets the chance to talk to his beloved Osha, the closest thing he will ever have to a daughter, and out of nowhere she just murders him by force choke without even wanting any kind of explanation about why he confessed to killing her mother. The man she has looked up to as a father figure for years upon years for most of her life. And Sol, being an idiot, lets her kill him, lets her fall to the dark side, and ruin the rest of her life by walking away with a child-killer. Even if you want to say it’s “loving” in some twisted way for Sol to just let Osha “be herself” or something, Sol watched Qimir butcher a squad of Jedi like a day or two ago. He watched him gut Jecki, a child. Does he not care enough for Osha to stop her from being seduced to the dark side by a deranged mass murderer? I get that Leslye wanted to tell his story to show “flaws” in the Jedi or something like that (and see the KOTOR comic line if you want an actually fantastic deployment of such an idea), but like above, the idea looks like an idea on paper and not one that makes sense as a sequence of events in a very interconnected plot. Sol’s entire character arc was a massive letdown

I’m sure you know this already but the answer you’re going to get will always be
*The prequel Jedi (possibly all Jedi) are bad and were always corrupt and the real villains
OR the lite version, *The Jedi were “flawed” so it makes sense that they’re “flawed”
*“Watch the prequels” “Watch The Clone Wars” “Watch Tales of the Jedi”

I really don’t want to get into politics here but Osha and Mae’s mom basically unalived herself by cop. You’re supposed to think Sol is in the wrong because she was “unarmed”. He’s like a cop thinking someone has a gun when they reach into a glove compartment and really they have a hairbrush or something, and shooting first and asking questions later. Like you said that’s not the situation at all because they were already attacking the Jedi and she was literally transforming into a shadow demon and starting to evaporate a child, but I’m pretty sure that’s the idea and it worked on much of the target audience for the show.

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 (Edited)

Vladius said:

Acbagel said:

  1. The Culmination of the Jedi Cover-up - This whole show has painted Vernestra as some sort of independent agent with the Order, able to unilaterally make decisions and act without any oversight. Her entire role here continually prompted my brain to ask “How is she allowed to do this?” and “Why is no one else getting involved?” The way this played out with her ability to constantly put together “secret” teams of 6-12-man Jedi squads and deploy them across the galaxy without Council oversight significantly undermined the established hierarchy of the Jedi Order. Then the episode’s conclusion, Vern convenes a meeting with the Supreme Chancellor and several Senate members, during which she fabricates a story implicating Sol. The blatant lie is presented without any pushback or skepticism from other knowledgeable Jedi or senate members, even though it’s been presented as if this knowledge is not at all secretive. Many seem to have an understanding of what happened, yet this beyond-out-of-the-blue explanation goes through this committee without challenge, and also somehow through Yoda. The episode further suggests that many Jedi are either complicit in or oblivious to this deception. This scenario assumes a level of collective ignorance or compliance that is difficult to reconcile with the established character and vigilance of the Jedi Order in this time period. The notion that the Council would not make it the #1 priority to investigate and verify the causes of the deaths of about a dozen Jedi, especially when linked to such a significant cover-up, strained all plausibility. Given the interconnected nature of the Jedi community, it is just inconceivable that such significant events would go unnoticed or unexamined. The deaths of multiple Jedi would inevitably become a major topic of concern for hundreds if not thousands of Jedi who interacted with so many of these fallen brothers and sisters, especially since we’re talking about murders of both Masters and Younglings… This episode outright asks us viewers to accept the reality that no other Jedi, many of whom would logically be aware of at least some of the true events, would speak out against Vern’s falsehoods. Sol is supposedly the killer, and when it is talked about, you’re telling me no one would be like, “Hey, uh… wasn’t Sol actually here on Coruscant in this very temple when Indara was killed a few days ago…?” “Hasn’t he been training the Younglings right here in this room?” “Yeah, he was showing me how to meditate at noon 3 days ago during the murder! Someone go check the schedule and the cameras!” Not to mention, didn’t we have multiple witnesses that IDed Mae, who is also now in custody at the temple? How does the Council not seem to care about any of this mountain of evidence? How are Jedi being killed en masse and they’re turning a blind eye to all of it? How does Grandmaster Yoda not sense any of this and deploy the most prominent Jedi Masters to investigate? He sensed Anakin killing Tusken Raiders across the galaxy, yet he can’t sense the massive conspiracy of murders happening right under his nose? This is not even a time when the Dark Side is “clouding” the vision of the Jedi. Sidious was responsible for that and Yoda is seeing these visions through that cloud, THAT’S what we’re supposed to see as Yoda struggling, but here he looks like a complete chump having no control over the Order. I don’t even understand what Vern feels like she needs to cover up? Is she hiding ALL of the truth simply because she still cares about… Qimir? Her former apprentice, apparently, as that was suddenly revealed (but extremely obvious, like every other “reveal” in this show). I genuinely don’t understand what is wrong with the truth here. Implicating Sol as a fallen Jedi seems WAY worse than just about any other explanation. Here is a short list of everyone who can easily give first-hand eyewitness accounts that directly contradict this lie:

Tasi Lowa, Yord’s Apprentice who was investigating Indara’s killer in episode 1. She investigated the initial murder scene and interviewed eyewitnesses of Mae’s attack on Indara. Every single piece of evidence pointed to Osha/Mae, nothing could’ve possibly indicated Sol. Can you imagine how bewildered she would be to hear this news? Surely she’d think something was amuck?

The bar owner from episode 1 who positively ID’ed one of the twins and dozens of other bar patrons who saw Mae walk up to Indara and threaten her in a combat stance.

The entire outpost of Jedi on Olega who are WITH Sol the entire time when Torbin is discovered to be dead.

Eyewitnesses on Olega like the young girl who was bribed to let Mae into the Jedi outpost.

Ki-Adi-Mundi and everyone in the room during that scene who watches footage of Mae ATTACKING Sol. Did Vern delete this footage…? Even assuming so, isn’t that MORE suspicious since multiple Jedi would testify to the exact same thing? Sol was not using a single act of aggression against Mae. CLEARLY, she was the aggressor trying to kill him. Like what possible explanation is there to point to Sol as a deranged fallen murderer according to the dozens to hundreds of pieces of evidence from Olega? And if the cover-up is that Sol used Mae to murder the Jedi, that’s even more unbelievable because everyone in this show has commented about how she’s not that strong and looks slow, she’s way outclassed by Sol without a weapon on camera, yet we’re supposed to believe she has murdered 3-4 masters and an entire squad of elite Knights in lightsaber combat. No.

Bazil. He is friendly with the Jedi and saw EVERYTHING. There is no way he’d defend Vern here.

Everyone on the Brendok Jedi team that saw how Sol didn’t have any self-inflicted wounds, and then suddenly Sol’s body is gone and didn’t return to Coruscant so they’re unable to perform an autopsy. Did this group of 11 other Jedi not discuss amongst themselves like “Hey, did you move Sol’s body?” “No… Did you?” “No…” everyone glares suspiciously at Vernestra

Any Jedi who arrested and processed Mae. Since apparently, they believed she murdered Sol, they told her as much, and then Vernestra waited until she was on Coruscant to make up this lie.

Every Jedi in the Temple who can confirm Sol’s whereabouts at the time of all these murders. Folks, this is not like Sol is within a 30-minute drive and could sneak out, kill a master, and make it back to Youngling Class in time (though this show does indicate starships can enter orbit and teleport across the galaxy in mere seconds). The accusation is that he was stealing starships, or has some unregistered personal starship, flying across the galaxy, killing Indara, sneaking around Olega and being involved in tons of other events and killing Torbin, sneaking to Khofar and killing half a dozen Jedi and Kelnacca, then flying to Brendock to kill himself. Sol. SOL. The softest, sweetest teacher… COME ON.

Of course, Vern knows the actual killers of Osha/Qimir could easily present evidence and wreck her entire scheme if desired. And we’re supposed to believe Yoda looks at all of this, gives Vern a thumbs up, and moves on.

Any way that I try to understand this cover-up, I cannot begin to fathom how it’s believed by even a single member of the Council, let alone the entire Order and Senate. Sorry, but you are required to suspend reality and sensible writing in order to accept this cover-up plot device. It makes absolutely no sense in-universe. It’s a good idea for a story on paper, but the idea itself was not fleshed out in any sensible way.

  1. Sol’s Guilt - Poor Sol. Read my earlier reviews and you’ll see that he was a character I actually liked for much of this show until they turned him into an absolute idiot here in the end. He confesses to Osha that he murdered her mother without trying to explain why he did what he did. I thought he had indisputable probable cause so this entire arc has never resonated with me. Mother Aniseya, a dark side using witch, was turning into a demon-looking monster with sharp teeth, dissolving a child who he thought was Osha (who wanted to be freed from this world), there was mention of the fire, and thus Sol was trying to protect Osha, as well as himself and Torbin who had been previously violently attacked. So let’s say even if Sol would 99% be justified for his actions in a court of law, even in a Senate tribunal outside the Jedi Council, let’s just say he still carries some guilt from that night because, yeah, I guess it would be traumatic (though the events here do not seem that much greater than any ordinary Jedi mission where death occurs. These guys train their entire lives for situations exactly like this and have presumably seen worse already as a Jedi Master). So he has been wanting to tell Osha the truth and he’s been wanting to explain himself to Mae for 16 years. So here he finally gets the chance to talk to his beloved Osha, the closest thing he will ever have to a daughter, and out of nowhere she just murders him by force choke without even wanting any kind of explanation about why he confessed to killing her mother. The man she has looked up to as a father figure for years upon years for most of her life. And Sol, being an idiot, lets her kill him, lets her fall to the dark side, and ruin the rest of her life by walking away with a child-killer. Even if you want to say it’s “loving” in some twisted way for Sol to just let Osha “be herself” or something, Sol watched Qimir butcher a squad of Jedi like a day or two ago. He watched him gut Jecki, a child. Does he not care enough for Osha to stop her from being seduced to the dark side by a deranged mass murderer? I get that Leslye wanted to tell his story to show “flaws” in the Jedi or something like that (and see the KOTOR comic line if you want an actually fantastic deployment of such an idea), but like above, the idea looks like an idea on paper and not one that makes sense as a sequence of events in a very interconnected plot. Sol’s entire character arc was a massive letdown

I’m sure you know this already but the answer you’re going to get will always be
*The prequel Jedi (possibly all Jedi) are bad and were always corrupt and the real villains
OR the lite version, *The Jedi were “flawed” so it makes sense that they’re “flawed”
*“Watch the prequels” “Watch The Clone Wars” “Watch Tales of the Jedi”

I really don’t want to get into politics here but Osha and Mae’s mom basically unalived herself by cop. You’re supposed to think Sol is in the wrong because she was “unarmed”. He’s like a cop thinking someone has a gun when they reach into a glove compartment and really they have a hairbrush or something, and shooting first and asking questions later. Like you said that’s not the situation at all because they were already attacking the Jedi and she was literally transforming into a shadow demon and starting to evaporate a child, but I’m pretty sure that’s the idea and it worked on much of the target audience for the show.

On the contrary (and I know this won’t move the needle for you), something I actually kind of appreciated here was the effort this went to show the Jedi not as space cops. I think that angle gets overplayed a bit; it’s easy to villainize them in that lens, but that’s hardly the point. This has a more productive distillation of the subtext.

The group on Brendok was doing botanical/geological surveys. They are scientists and researchers, practitioners in the Force. Not knights-errant, or even diplomatic peacekeepers. (This is what Torbin is lonely and frustrated about!) Even around the temples, we see these very particular Terry Gilliam-character, nerdy British guys as Jedi. Vernestra herself isn’t comfortable with hyperspace and being out there in the field. The show articulates that in this era, they are wont to be academics. They aren’t even tied closely to the Senate yet!

Just wanted to put out there that I think it’s very different from the prequel Jedi flaws. It explains how we get there, but I think Sol’s mistakes here are more as a man of faith, not a cop. He thinks he’s hearing the Force, but he’s really feeling his own fears and desires. Personal paternal instincts, filtered into something external he needs to answer to. He doesn’t realize he is driving the action, not just following the whims of nature.

I end up liking this because I think the prequel’s cop thing ends up muddling what is actually kind of wrong with the Jedi pedagogy and how institution exerts pressures. The cop thing has always been something unique to the Clone War era and context, but there is something more real and timeless about organization and positing a “correct” side of the Force here. Sol is just unfamiliar with other ways of interfacing with the Force - the Jedi way tells us everything else is a corruption - and to be fair it does look bad.

This all feels really nuanced, because Indara is a good example of a master working within the guidelines. She is able to step outside their beliefs and tell Sol that the markings could just be a cultural thing, not necessarily an abomination in the Force. She explicitly tells Sol that Torbin needs to make his own mistakes and gives him the space to do so. Indara wants to leave everyone be. And I think if Sol isn’t there, this doesn’t go bad. But he fails as a Jedi more than because he is one. It’s important that the Jedi are human and that’s okay, what is bad is the need to cover it up to not rock the boat, to minimize mess. The organizational pressure that pushes these human characters to lie.

i wish the show was good

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing

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There are clearly ideas with potential in this show. Reading through the edit description from the link above it sounds like that edit helps to present them in a much much better way.

I don’t buy suggestions that the show failed in large part because of Disney meddling. There is just too much wrong with basic story logic, general execution, and performance. Anyway, good opportunity for editors!

The blue elephant in the room.

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NFBisms said:

i wish the show was good

That’s my issue with the vast majority of Star Wars media since the mid-1990s. There’s always been so much potential for excellent ideas, but they just keep getting botched in execution.