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The Abyss - Special Edition (1989) BluRay Project *BD-50* x2 *DELETED* — Page 5

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PDB said:

Buster D said:

James Cameron recently did a Reddit AMA, but it doesn't look like anyone bothered to ask him about Terminator and Abyss getting a blanket teal tint.  I'd kind of like to hear his justification for it, although I suspect the answer might not be very satisfying (if he even would be willing to answer).

I'm sure he would give the standard, unsatisfying its my film/its the way its suppose to look anyway.

Unfortunately I'm sure he'd say that too.

Anyway, just to clear things up: It's not a plain blanket tint. When they do these restorations they go back to scanning and cleaning up the original negative, and by doing that they lose the color timing done to the theatrical/home video prints. They get higher resolution and all the original detail, but as far as I know they have to redo the color timing from scratch. (Basically it would be like taking the Japanese Abyss broadcast and making it look like the DVD shot by shot) This takes more than putting a blanket tint on it, believe me. It's probably a lot about hue/saturation/luminance control.

That's where the idea of creating a new color timing comes in. James Cameron likes doing it so he keeps doing it to all his re-releases now. Terminator 1 got more teal added to it than Aliens and Titanic though, as well as a slight green tint on top of it all. (Aliens and Titanic also has more green in the whites than red and blue, but also slightly more red than blue, just like T1 except it's not as heavy)

Now the interesting thing is that The Abyss is, judging by the latest screenshots, exactly like Aliens and Titanic, which is not as heavily overdone as T1, but still the exact same thing with the whites, most green, less red, even less blue.

The original look of all these films is without a doubt close to what we see in theatrical trailers or the old home video releases, that is Cameron focusing on a clean blue for the cold-looking scenes, teal only being slightly visible here and there as part of the natural color balance, not something over-forced.

And the good news is that Aliens, Titanic and The Abyss will be easy to correct, though the digital changes won't be fixable. (Like added stars in the sky in Titanic or removed camera crew being visible etc.) And of course, the changes in brightness in some scenes will still be there but it would look closer to the original look.

And I don't usually do this but I have to say it: Stamper, quit defending Cameron or present technical proof for your claims. There's so much technical proof of what has been done here that one could easily make a wall of text from it.

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You_Too said:

PDB said:

Buster D said:

James Cameron recently did a Reddit AMA, but it doesn't look like anyone bothered to ask him about Terminator and Abyss getting a blanket teal tint.  I'd kind of like to hear his justification for it, although I suspect the answer might not be very satisfying (if he even would be willing to answer).

I'm sure he would give the standard, unsatisfying its my film/its the way its suppose to look anyway.

Unfortunately I'm sure he'd say that too.

Anyway, just to clear things up: It's not a plain blanket tint. When they do these restorations they go back to scanning and cleaning up the original negative, and by doing that they lose the color timing done to the theatrical/home video prints. They get higher resolution and all the original detail, but as far as I know they have to redo the color timing from scratch. (Basically it would be like taking the Japanese Abyss broadcast and making it look like the DVD shot by shot) This takes more than putting a blanket tint on it, believe me. It's probably a lot about hue/saturation/luminance control.

That's where the idea of creating a new color timing comes in. James Cameron likes doing it so he keeps doing it to all his re-releases now. Terminator 1 got more teal added to it than Aliens and Titanic though, as well as a slight green tint on top of it all. (Aliens and Titanic also has more green in the whites than red and blue, but also slightly more red than blue, just like T1 except it's not as heavy)

Now the interesting thing is that The Abyss is, judging by the latest screenshots, exactly like Aliens and Titanic, which is not as heavily overdone as T1, but still the exact same thing with the whites, most green, less red, even less blue.

The original look of all these films is without a doubt close to what we see in theatrical trailers or the old home video releases, that is Cameron focusing on a clean blue for the cold-looking scenes, teal only being slightly visible here and there as part of the natural color balance, not something over-forced.

And the good news is that Aliens, Titanic and The Abyss will be easy to correct, though the digital changes won't be fixable. (Like added stars in the sky in Titanic or removed camera crew being visible etc.) And of course, the changes in brightness in some scenes will still be there but it would look closer to the original look.

And I don't usually do this but I have to say it: Stamper, quit defending Cameron or present technical proof for your claims. There's so much technical proof of what has been done here that one could easily make a wall of text from it.

 Goods points, You_Too. We had that discussion about the changes in colors for the Road Warrior Blu-ray. They scanned the negative which was cool/blue but the original release prints where warm/yellow exactly the same as the old DVD and LD. The release prints where chemically processed to be more yellow to give that desert feel. The cinematographer planned it that way and took great lengths to achieve that look. When WB went back to the negative, they simply scanned it and release it without trying to reproduce the original release print's look.

I wonder if you are right and this is similar. If when they scanned The Abyss' negative, they lost (or it didn't contain) the original release print's color timing. Cameron re-colored it but instead of his 90's era steel/royal blue look (that Abyss, T2 and True Lies have), he moved to that more modern aqua/teal look that he is now fond of. At the end of the day Cameron is changing all his films to fit his current tastes and not what they looked like at the time of their releases.

I've actually seen a archival 35mm print of The Abyss at the AFI in Silver Spring, Maryland (USA) circa early 2000s. I do clearly remember it had the Cameron steel, blue look (not the teal/aqua). I can tell you that both HD masters don't look like that print (the JPN HD is way, way wrong). The closest to that look is the DVD. Makes me wonder what the LD looked like. 

Speaking of laserdiscs and Cameron. Aliens is interesting. I have been capturing my old LDs lately. Trying to make backups in case my player finally bites it. When I watched my capture of Aliens (letterbox/theatrical), I expected it to look like the DVD. Nope. The DVD has a little more muted look in its colors. The LD is warmer and has more saturated colors. I actually kind of like the LD's colors better then the DVD's. Suffice to say the BD, DVD and that LD all look different.

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PDB said:

Goods points, You_Too. We had that discussion about the changes in colors for the Road Warrior Blu-ray. They scanned the negative which was cool/blue but the original release prints where warm/yellow exactly the same as the old DVD and LD. The release prints where chemically processed to be more yellow to give that desert feel. The cinematographer planned it that way and took great lengths to achieve that look. When WB went back to the negative, they simply scanned it and release it without trying to reproduce the original release print's look.

That's also what happened to Conan the Barbarian on blu-ray. It has the look of the negative, without the color timing that was done for the theatrical prints.

PDB said:

Speaking of laserdiscs and Cameron. Aliens is interesting. I have been capturing my old LDs lately. Trying to make backups in case my player finally bites it. When I watched my capture of Aliens (letterbox/theatrical), I expected it to look like the DVD. Nope. The DVD has a little more muted look in its colors. The LD is warmer and has more saturated colors. I actually kind of like the LD's colors better then the DVD's. Suffice to say the BD, DVD and that LD all look different.

LD's are interesting indeed. Sometimes when an LD release is very different and warmer in the colors than the usual home releases, it makes me think maybe they did that because of TVs not being calibrated back then, like some compensation for the otherwise cold look it would get when viewed. Of course that's just speculations but it would be interesting to know the truth about it.

Then of course, it could be that when some LD's were released, maybe they scanned the negative or some kind of pre-color timing print and accidentally "got rid of" the intended look.

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Out of interest, was anyone ever able to pick up Steve Johnson's Abyss DVDs?  There's some clips on YouTube, and links to his site when he was selling it, but the site has been completely re-designed now, and there is no links to the DVDs anymore.  Nothing shows up on eBay, it's like they were never released.

Were they pulled by Fox?

Save London’s Curzon Soho Cinema

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DVD-BOY said:

Out of interest, was anyone ever able to pick up Steve Johnson's Abyss DVDs?  There's some clips on YouTube, and links to his site when he was selling it, but the site has been completely re-designed now, and there is no links to the DVDs anymore.  Nothing shows up on eBay, it's like they were never released.

Were they pulled by Fox?

There is rare occasion where something might need to be liberated that I would consider a purchase, but it doesn't come often.

If there are no links anymore I'd bet he may have been getting more notice than wanted or he was sent the "letter" by Fox.

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I'm viewing a capture of this new cinemax version and the framerate seems off. i'm getting that odd pan/scan queasy feeling from it having what I would consider "unnatural movement".

Now, Im sure its due to the uploaders encoding job but I was wondering if anyone here has noticed this in any versions they have seen.

its from the 2.76 re-encode on TPB

Thanks.

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elbarto1 said:

I'm viewing a capture of this new cinemax version and the framerate seems off. i'm getting that odd pan/scan queasy feeling from it having what I would consider "unnatural movement".

Now, Im sure its due to the uploaders encoding job but I was wondering if anyone here has noticed this in any versions they have seen.

its from the 2.76 re-encode on TPB

Thanks.

The framerate of the 14GB Cinemax TS capture I've seen is 60 fps, which is a US TV standard and certainly not the 24 fps that the movie was shot in.  I don't think the uploader of that version did any re-encoding.  Once the broadcaster changes the frame rate, I think there's little hope of fixing a lack of smoothness in the time-domain.

If the version you saw was derived from what I saw, it's going to be a mess not matter what they try to do with a re-encode.

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MarkerB said:  The framerate of the 14GB Cinemax TS capture I've seen is 60 fps, which is a US TV standard and certainly not the 24 fps that the movie was shot in.  I don't think the uploader of that version did any re-encoding.  Once the broadcaster changes the frame rate, I think there's little hope of fixing a lack of smoothness in the time-domain.  If the version you saw was derived from what I saw, it's going to be a mess not matter what they try to do with a re-encode.

That's not true.  The Cinemax broadcast is almost completely soft telecined.  It's a simple matter to restore the original frame-rate.  If there's a problem with the re-encode, it's the fault of the one who encoded it, not the source material.

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That makes sense. I dont have cable anymore and rarely, if ever watched broadcast movies. I forgot that they up the framerate and that is in keeping w/ the effect I am seeing.

It's similar to my HDTV's "120hz mode" which I watched for about 2 minutes when I got the TV and promptly turned off.

So yeah, thats probably it. Bummer, guess I'll have to keep waiting for a proper bluray because the effect is extremely distracting to my eye.

Thanks for the info.

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Chewtobacca said:

MarkerB said:  The framerate of the 14GB Cinemax TS capture I've seen is 60 fps, which is a US TV standard and certainly not the 24 fps that the movie was shot in.  I don't think the uploader of that version did any re-encoding.  Once the broadcaster changes the frame rate, I think there's little hope of fixing a lack of smoothness in the time-domain.  If the version you saw was derived from what I saw, it's going to be a mess not matter what they try to do with a re-encode.

That's not true.  The Cinemax broadcast is almost completely soft telecined.  It's a simple matter to restore the original frame-rate.  If there's a problem with the re-encode, it's the fault of the one who encoded it, not the source material.

I stand corrected, and so very glad to hear that. RipBot264 didn't indicate it was soft, so I assumed it was hard!

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Am I right to assume that the best source of the Special Edition is currently the Japanese LD?

If so, will anyone take the Japanese LD and the current Cinemax broadcast and do a mix? Or we are waiting for the Blu-ray release which may not come?

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Oh yes, the sound on the DVD or the Cinemax is crap, bring back the glorious LD days!

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The best commercial available version of the Special Edition is the Chinese R6 DVD; anamorphic with 1536kbps DTS; until the BD will be out, or someone will do a new preservation... (^^,)

The ResolveR ultimate restoration workstation | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com |

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Is it on usenet? I could only find the tiny file not the TS

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Ok, so I obtained another version 6.76gb - same odd framerate when viewed on my PC. Ran it through MutiAVCHD to create a disc and BAM problem solved. Not sure if thats MultiAVCHD's reencode or if playing it on the BD player w/ 24fps playback "fixed" it - but I really dont care. Looks great. Feels great.

Looks spectacular compared to all other releases even at 720p. Cant wait for a proper 1080p bluray w/ a special edition looking this good/better.

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Can anyone do me a solid and PM me the PW for the TS please?

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A 17GB version of the HDTV rip (In 1080i) turned up on HDclub.

It's probably 15 GB if you exclude all the Russian soundtracks, as the video is at 13 MBPS.

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This is the one I have:

General
ID                                       : 1002 (0x3EA)
Complete name                            : H:\Movies\The Abyss DC\The.Abyss.Dir.Cut.1080i.mp2.dd51.ts
Format                                   : MPEG-TS
File size                                : 20.6 GiB
Duration                                 : 2h 50mn
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 17.3 Mbps

Video
ID                                       : 17 (0x11)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
Format profile                           : Main@High
Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
Format settings, Matrix                  : Custom
Format settings, GOP                     : Variable
Codec ID                                 : 2
Duration                                 : 2h 50mn
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 16.0 Mbps
Maximum bit rate                         : 19.4 Mbps
Width                                    : 1 440 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps
Standard                                 : Component
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Top Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.343
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00
Time code source                         : Group of pictures header
Stream size                              : 19.0 GiB (92%)
Writing library                          : (c) 1998-2006 Womble Multimedia, Inc. / MPEG Video Wizard (05/2006) / Aug  7 2006

Audio
ID                                       : 20 (0x14)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AC-3
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension                           : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness              : Big
Codec ID                                 : 129
Duration                                 : 2h 50mn
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 448 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 6 channels
Channel positions                        : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Delay relative to video                  : -133ms
Stream size                              : 546 MiB (3%)

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The one from HDclub

http://lostpic.net/orig_images/6/4/a/64ab5130bc099fb44b966bf9845a5d6c.png

http://lostpic.net/orig_images/6/3/b/63b373743da79cc526bb15b1c738daa4.png

http://lostpic.net/orig_images/7/9/d/79dca7a16d471ece5b6c8fed73c0aae1.png

http://lostpic.net/orig_images/6/2/0/6200566a03fab6bca3965f238b9c722e.png

http://lostpic.net/orig_images/5/3/e/53eba55a8554c00649da9fe1b7e3a11f.png

http://lostpic.net/orig_images/4/0/b/40bf50ae6f220394d7f76d92475e96ee.png

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Do the screen shots look pretty much the same as yours Shawn?

I sure can't wait for this to hit blu-ray, as long as it's the special edition.

The hdclub i think it ends up being just over 13gb with all the Russian audio removed.

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Jetrell Fo said:

DVD-BOY said:

Out of interest, was anyone ever able to pick up Steve Johnson's Abyss DVDs?  There's some clips on YouTube, and links to his site when he was selling it, but the site has been completely re-designed now, and there is no links to the DVDs anymore.  Nothing shows up on eBay, it's like they were never released.

Were they pulled by Fox?

There is rare occasion where something might need to be liberated that I would consider a purchase, but it doesn't come often.

If there are no links anymore I'd bet he may have been getting more notice than wanted or he was sent the "letter" by Fox.

Absolutely, and I've looked everywhere to see if there are copies for sale, but it looks like you're right and he recieved a C&D from Fox - I imagine he still works in the industry and doesn't want to burn any bridges.

With regards to the film itself, has there been a new broadcast of the directors cut?  I've only seen the Theatrical Cut being discussed, otherwise it was a dated Japanese master.

Save London’s Curzon Soho Cinema

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_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

The best commercial available version of the Special Edition is the Chinese R6 DVD; anamorphic with 1536kbps DTS; until the BD will be out, or someone will do a new preservation... (^^,)

 that may be. i have to watch in the next days... well, i'll try to do it it. anyway, i still recommend to preserve the laserdisc audio of both cuts. i doubt fox and lightstorm entertainment will include the original dolby stereo mixes.

does anyone have them?

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DoomBot said:

Do the screen shots look pretty much the same as yours Shawn?

I sure can't wait for this to hit blu-ray, as long as it's the special edition.

The hdclub i think it ends up being just over 13gb with all the Russian audio removed.

I will check Kev and get back to you guys.

:)

Jedit:

I hate to disappoint but I have the Japan broadcast (BS-i) logo up in right hand corner.  Sorry.

I've only seen the Theatrical Cut being discussed, otherwise it was a dated Japanese master.

Apparently so ..... a Cinemax broadcast.  Might be just Theatrical though.