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The 1997 OT Special Edition Trilogy Preservation Standards Thread (* unfinished *) — Page 4

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none said:

RotJ reel change frames: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Reel-lengths/post/422104/#TopicPost422104

Just keep in mind that those are GOUT frame numbers.

Darth Mallwalker said:

Sounds like ROTJ had the same breaks in '97 as in '83

24345 / 24346 -- burping frog outside Jabba's hut
53181 / 53182 -- Emperor arrives at Death Star II
83375 / 83376 -- speeder bike chase
111451 / 111452 - Luke tells Leia about their family ties
141781 / 141782 - Ewok bonks himself with tangled slingshot
170895 / 170896 - Luke drags Vader to docking bay for unmasking

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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CapableMetal said:

I've compared a few sources on this, all missing an occasional frame in different places, but time-lined them so that missing frames are taken into account.

I got exactly the same reel change numbers before comparing to the 2004 DVD with the revised Emperor communication scene removed (it fits perfectly).

So it looks like we're onto a winner with this one. Do you have the reel change numbers for ROTJ?

That's great. So if I should make a similar upload for ESB should I insert a empty frame at that point where both G'Kar and TB is missing one frame (asteroid hitting Stardestroyer) or keep it one frame short. It's most likely a IP-reel splice point, it's gone on the US LD as well. My guess is that you all want the audio complete for future SE projects, if so I'll insert a black frame there so my video will sync with your audio for those who would like to combine our files to enjoy your work. I never did get the broadcasts of ROTJ, maybe I should.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Molly said:

CapableMetal's encode synchs exactly (as far as my eyes and ears can tell me) to msycamore's m2v.  I made an AC3 in Aften because Mainconcept choked on the FLAC, but it seems to have come out a bit loud relative to a "proper" 5.1 AC3.

Nice to hear it works fine with CapableMetal's audio work, I may upload the source file to usenet if there's desire for it. Some may perhaps want to take advantage of my resizing, frame syncing and NTSC conversion but would like to correct the flaws in this telecine, particularly the pink tint and low gamma, as I didn't try to correct such things for my encode.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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msycamore said:

That's great. So if I should make a similar upload for ESB should I insert a empty frame at that point where both G'Kar and TB is missing one frame (asteroid hitting Stardestroyer) or keep it one frame short. It's most likely a IP-reel splice point, it's gone on the US LD as well. My guess is that you all want the audio complete for future SE projects, if so I'll insert a black frame there so my video will sync with your audio for those who would like to combine our files to enjoy your work. I never did get the broadcasts of ROTJ, maybe I should.

That frame isn't present on the PAL LD either. That particular frame happens almost exactly half way through the audio track for Reel 3 on the DTS disc so I'm unsure what to do about it. Would it be wise to follow the 97 trend and ignore that extra frame, or add it in because we know it exists in the 04 releases? I know it wouldn't make a lot of difference (I haven't finished synching the audio just yet) but it would be nice to set a standard on this and get it right first time :)

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 (Edited)

My suggestion is that you should ignore the missing frame and go with complete audio. People who would like to take advantage of your fine work in the future would just need to restore that frame from another source if it's needed.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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msycamore said:

My suggestion is that you should ignore the missing frame and go with complete audio. People who would like to take advantage of your fine work in the future would just need to restore that frame from another source if it's needed.

I think you're right, and would be a very simple task to perform. I'll keep to that then as a complete reference. Only ROTJ to figure out now...

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So conference call begins 75306 ?

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Darth Mallwalker said:

So conference call begins 75306 ?

Yes, we are aligned. :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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 (Edited)

CapableMetal, I did take a quick look at Jedi for you and this is what I came up with:

0 = first frame
712 = STAR WARS title card appear

reel changes

25055 = r2
54317 = r3
84511 = r4
112587 = r5
142918 = r6
172032 = r7

G'Kar appears to lack 9 frames in total around the reel change points.

G'Kar:

-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2
-0/-0= -0
-1/-1= -2
-1/-0= -1
-1/-1= -2

TB:

-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2
-0/-1= -1
-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2

TB lack 11 frames around the reel breaks, and a few more on various points.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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negative1 said:


Saw this @ 35mm forum....and your pm inbox is full....

These prints are all in Excellent shape...Episodes 4-5-6 are the "Special editions". You also get the Animated "CLONE WARS". Thats 7 features in all. I'd like to sell these as a set. $5000.00 Plus shipping.

 

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Jetrell Fo said:

negative1 said:


Saw this @ 35mm forum....and your pm inbox is full....

These prints are all in Excellent shape...Episodes 4-5-6 are the "Special editions". You also get the Animated "CLONE WARS". Thats 7 features in all. I'd like to sell these as a set. $5000.00 Plus shipping.

 

 

yeah,

i mentioned that here already:

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http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Original-35mm-Theatrical-Versions-of-SE-Trilogy-and-Prequel-Trilogy-1997-2005/post/599363/#TopicPost599363

 

later

-1

[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]

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negative1 said:

Jetrell Fo said:

negative1 said:


Saw this @ 35mm forum....and your pm inbox is full....

These prints are all in Excellent shape...Episodes 4-5-6 are the "Special editions". You also get the Animated "CLONE WARS". Thats 7 features in all. I'd like to sell these as a set. $5000.00 Plus shipping.

 

 

yeah,

i mentioned that here already:

--------------------------------------

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Original-35mm-Theatrical-Versions-of-SE-Trilogy-and-Prequel-Trilogy-1997-2005/post/599363/#TopicPost599363

 

later

-1

Yeah, I just saw that.

I DID send the gentleman an e-mail to see if he might consider loaning these prints for scanning.  I also sent him a link to the thread.  Maybe he'll sign up here and be interested, I don't know.  I figured the worse he could say is no and it's better to try than to not bother because one never knows.  I'm guessing we'd have to work out some kind of arrangements in a situation like this.  I've never done anything like this so I'm not sure what a loan of film would actually entail.

I tried and here's to hoping something good comes out of it.

:)  

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 (Edited)

I am hoping the next move will be to figure out what source video we're going to use for a full release....

Does anyone here work well with LD video?  I have the Japan pressings of the SE in mpeg-2 format @ 9Mbps.  Each side of an LD occupies 1 DVD5 with LPCM 2.0 @ 256kbps audio.

If it would help any I'd gladly send them out to someone for use.

I've downloaded msycamore's video and I'm going to see if I can learn how to synch audio to video.  I'm going to have to learn sooner or later.  Maybe now is a good time.  Thanks to msycamore's hard work in getting this up for us all to work with.

Cheers!!!!

:)

 

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msycamore said:

CapableMetal, I did take a quick look at Jedi for you and this is what I came up with:

0 = first frame
712 = STAR WARS title card appear

reel changes

25055 = r2
54317 = r3
84511 = r4
112587 = r5
142918 = r6
172032 = r7

G'Kar appears to lack 9 frames in total around the reel change points.

G'Kar:

-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2
-0/-0= -0
-1/-1= -2
-1/-0= -1
-1/-1= -2

TB:

-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2
-0/-1= -1
-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2

TB lack 11 frames around the reel breaks, and a few more on various points.

 

Are you going to do the ESB & ROTJ for the project as well?  I know the m2v you uploaded is certainly cleaner than my LD caps are and your work with them would probably be the better of the sources to go with. 

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msycamore,

I did a sync with your video and the ANH FLAC audio that Capable did with MKVmerge and it looked and sounded nice.

I am going to make an AVCHD and drop it in the player to check it out that way.

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So, is the 1997 SE laserdisc caption still needed?

Let me know, as I have several PAL and NTSC laserdisc players (between them, the Pioneer HLD-X9) and the following discs:

NTSC USA LDs:

  • Star Wars Trilogy: Special Edition (1997) [4102985] (X2)

 

PAL UK LDs:

  • Star Wars Trilogy: Special Edition (1997) [EE 1232]

 

PAL FRANCE LDs:

  • Star Wars: Coffret Trilogie: Edition Spéciale (1997) [604735]

 

PAL GERMANY LDs:

  • Star Wars: Trilogie: Special Edition (Krieg der Sterne) (1997) [604705]

 

PAL ITALY VHS:

  • Star Wars: Trilogia di Guerre Stellari Edizione Speciale (1997) [6047WS]

 

(the last for the italian language... if only I could find those 3 DVD-R taken from TV, with italian language but formatted at 1.85:1 so useless as video, but with stereo AC3 at 384kbps if I well remember)

Following my calculation, a capture for each CAV side will be less than 5GB without audio and using Huffyuv - so at least (if I'm lucky) an empty DVD-R will be used for each side, but I'm sure a DVD-R DL will be used anytime...

If I can tell my opinion, I will use the AVCHD format, as it is compatible with PAL and NTSC at standard definition, the video quality is better compared to DVD - using dual layer DVDs, AVC compression at 5:1 or 6:1 will be really good - and is easy today to find BD players which play AVCHD - also PS3 plays it!

Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash… 😦 | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com

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Jetrell Fo said:

Are you going to do the ESB & ROTJ for the project as well?  I know the m2v you uploaded is certainly cleaner than my LD caps are and your work with them would probably be the better of the sources to go with. 

ESB has been done already, I just need to push the encode button. ;) I recently downloaded Jedi to help Capable spot the reel changes, but after seeing some of it I don't know if it's worth it to be honest, ANH & ESB is quite badly smeared but they are still watchable, the Jedi broadcasts are really bad.

Jetrell Fo said:

I did a sync with your video and the ANH FLAC audio that Capable did with MKVmerge and it looked and sounded nice.

Good to hear my encode was of some use. :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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msycamore, sorry I'm a bit lost now... let me understand, there is still need for LD captures of the 1997 Special Edition Trilogy (NTSC and/or PAL)? Or there are better sources available? Because following this thread I suspected that the DVB sources are worse than LD, isn't true?

Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash… 😦 | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com

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You want to know what I think might be cool for this?

Finding 5 different people that can each do 1 capture of a specified version of the 1997 SE laserdiscs and then find 1 person willing to take all 5 separate captures to make 1 great reference out of them.

It may sound crazy....I just wanted to think out loud.

:)

 

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It's not at all crazy.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Jetrell Fo said:

You want to know what I think might be cool for this?

Finding 5 different people that can each do 1 capture of a specified version of the 1997 SE laserdiscs and then find 1 person willing to take all 5 separate captures to make 1 great reference out of them.

It may sound crazy....I just wanted to think out loud.

:)

 

What about 1 person that can capture three different PAL 1997 SE laserdisc with different laserdisc players (making for example 3x3 or 3x4 captures) and then take the best out of them?

Highligth: just bought one 1TB hard disk to use only for Star Wars projects...

Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash… 😦 | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com

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_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

Jetrell Fo said:

You want to know what I think might be cool for this?

Finding 5 different people that can each do 1 capture of a specified version of the 1997 SE laserdiscs and then find 1 person willing to take all 5 separate captures to make 1 great reference out of them.

It may sound crazy....I just wanted to think out loud.

:)

 

What about 1 person that can capture three different PAL 1997 SE laserdisc with different laserdisc players (making for example 3x3 or 3x4 captures) and then take the best out of them?

Highligth: just bought one 1TB hard disk to use only for Star Wars projects...

I'm guessing a PAL & NTSC version would be good for both sides...so people wouldn't have to manipulate things for themselves.

This leads me to another query....when comparing video ONLY (aside from any visual adjustments...characters, colors, shadows, wipes), how does the BD version compare to the 97 LD version in the way of timing audio to them?  I realize PAL would have to be sped up a bit.

What I'd like to see is a minimal amount of adjustment...i.e., cutting out pieces of scenes and what not so that ANY 1997 audio could be muxed with little or no speed/pitch adjustments (aside from the PAL speed up) while keeping the 1997 SE the way it was released.

Any ideas, notes, suggestions, opinions, definitive answers?  :)   

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russs15 said:

none said:

Flunk has an .avi for ESB and RotJ.

I never knew that!! Were they "700Mb fit-on-a-CD" quality as was very common in those days or were they a decent size and quality??

 

When I read this I went searching and I have all 3 of these.  I think I got them when I used to use one of the old file sharing programs...I forget the name off hand.  If I remember correctly all 3 cut off during the end credits.  I could be wrong....I'd have to check.

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_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

msycamore, sorry I'm a bit lost now... let me understand, there is still need for LD captures of the 1997 Special Edition Trilogy (NTSC and/or PAL)? Because following this thread I suspected that the DVB sources are worse than LD, isn't true?

I'm not the person to ask, but I guess there is always need for preservations of SW-LD's even if other sources have advantages over them. The DVB sources are obviously in a higher resolution and doesn't have the shortcomings of the LD-format. The US LD set I checked had pretty nasty artifacts and DVNR-smear that was worse than what is seen in the DVB sources, see some examples here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/DVNR-smearing-in-GOUT-not-in-the-master-Or-is-the-1995-release-a-different-master-altogether/post/543328/#TopicPost543328

I guess you'll have to check your discs and see which ones are best suited for preservations, it's possible the Japanese or the PAL lasers are better. The DVB sources (except G'kar) includes the theatrical end credits, the LD's do not. See here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Credits-Leaders-Thread/post/593739/#TopicPost593739

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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I would love to see DVB captures of all 6 movies...hopefully they're all the original theatrical versions (the SE is anyways). 

Does anyone have all 6 DVB's?  Can we get the raw broadcast captures made available somehow for folks to start working with them?