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Terminator 3 T-HOPE Edition (Released) — Page 2

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Originally posted by: Doctor M
The 25 to 29.97 trick is really pretty sweet, but I only use it on video that is natively 25 frames/sec.
If they pitchshifted the audio, it's really your only way to go (since correcting that rarely sounds good).

If they didn't pitchshift, that method will preserve the 4% speed up, which I consider the biggest flaw in most PAL conversions.
Which since you have to re-encode the video to 480 lines anyway, re-encoding the audio as well doesn't seem a huge effort.


To sum up:
If the audio is pitchshifted (that is the tonal quality lowered so people don't sound like they're sucking helium)
-Resize/reencode to 720x480 @ 25fps
-DGPulldown 25 to 29.97

If the whole thing was just sped up:
-Resize/reencode to 720x480 @ 23.976
-DGPulldown 23.976 to 29.97
-Re-encode audio 25 to 23.976

And yes, BeSweet can convert DD5.1. If you use the command line it's "-ac3enc( -b 448 -6ch ) -ota( -r 25000 23976 )".
You can find the option on most BeSweet GUIs too.

Thanks for the advice, I will check it out. Just 1 question; what is pitchshifting and what's the difference between pitchshifting and sped up? I don't know how I can see if the audo is sped up or not.

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Originally posted by: maurice2029
Originally posted by: Doctor M up:
Just 1 question; what is pitchshifting and what's the difference between pitchshifting and sped up? I don't know how I can see if the audo is sped up or not.


When something is sped up, you reduce the playing time of something and raise the pitch, because when you shorten the play time of an audio recording, the vibrations that make up sound are compressed together, so there are more vibrations per second, thus the pitch is raised. You can fix this in a sped up recording by pitchshifting, which is where you take the faster recording and artificially reduce the number of vibrations, thus bringing the tone down, while maintaining the faster speed.

So when American movies are converted to PAL, they run the films at a faster rate (roughly 4%) in order to bring the framerate up to 25 fps, and so they have to speed up the audio in order to bring it keep it in sync with the movie. Sometimes they just speed it up, making the voices sound slightly higher pitched than normal, and sometimes they adjust the pitch, bring it back down to the pitch of the original audio.

So:

sped up = faster & higher
toneshifting = time remains the same, pitch changes
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The only way you'll know for sure which they did is a listening test of the NTSC and PAL versions together, or from someone else who knows.

If you have a really good ear you might just be able to tell if Arnold sounds a little girly.

Dr. M

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PAL Project is finished (I think). Tomorrow I'm gonna try to put it online!

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PAL DVD version is online, and available at Demonoid and ThePirateBay.

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How's the NTSC version coming? I'm holding off grabbing the PAL in hopes of something I can play on a standalone.

Dr. M

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Originally posted by: Doctor M
How's the NTSC version coming? I'm holding off grabbing the PAL in hopes of something I can play on a standalone.

To be honest, I have not started on it. I first have some other things to do, and I'm monitoring the seeding-progress of the PAL version at the moment. I think next weekend I will start on the conversation of the NTSC project.

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The (tests for the) NTSC project has been delayed to January, because of a very busy December month.

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I hear that! Take your time. From what I hear of the PAL version it'll be worth the wait.
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Originally posted by: casualimp
I hear that! Take your time. From what I hear of the PAL version it'll be worth the wait.

Curious question, but what did you hear about the PAL version?

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Well I've finally finished the download and watched the edit. Not bad, still very Mostow but it's better and I love what you did with the opening. Excellent stuff except I couldn't really hear the voice over well.

If you ever plan to go back and do more stuff to it, I was thinking you could use the opening of bicentennial man along with the stan winston teaser trailer for T2. I always thought they were very similar since they're both about robots on an assembly line. It goes along very well with what john says later about the terminators coming off an assembly line.
He big in nothing important in good elephant.

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Originally posted by: Wesyeed
Well I've finally finished the download and watched the edit. Not bad, still very Mostow but it's better and I love what you did with the opening. Excellent stuff except I couldn't really hear the voice over well.

If you ever plan to go back and do more stuff to it, I was thinking you could use the opening of bicentennial man along with the stan winston teaser trailer for T2. I always thought they were very similar since they're both about robots on an assembly line. It goes along very well with what john says later about the terminators coming off an assembly line.

Thanks for the feedback. I don't know Bicentennial Man opening, but I will definitely check it out now! ;-)

Removing the Mostow touch is impossible in my opinion. You can't erase everything or all else the story will have even more plotholes.

I know about the narration problem, maybe in January I will try to fix it. The problem is to find a good balance between the narration voice, which has some background noise and music from the original movie, and the new music. You can;t remove the background noise and music by mixing, so I tried to use the new background music to overcome the original background stuff. On the computer, the AC3 file sounded good. Narration could be heard clearly over the background music. After converting all the files to DVD, the narration dropped in volume, while it looked like the background music increated in volume. Really annoying, it's the problem that haunts me now after the release. I am a perfectionist when it comes to Terminator related things, so this bugs me enormously.

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I haven't seen this yet, but I have a couple questions.
First will there be a v2 (that I should wait for).

Also, the details say you remove the John/Kate romance. Doesn't that screw up the plot a bit? The first T movie had a romance that worked (albeit critical to the story), couldn't it be made to fit in here?

Dr. M

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Originally posted by: Doctor M
I haven't seen this yet, but I have a couple questions.
First will there be a v2 (that I should wait for).

Also, the details say you remove the John/Kate romance. Doesn't that screw up the plot a bit? The first T movie had a romance that worked (albeit critical to the story), couldn't it be made to fit in here?


T1's romance worked, but it was also very essential to the plot of the movie (John being conceived, Reese being's John's father, etc.) T3's romance was not essential to the story in my opinion. Also, as described in 2's novelization, John was a loner and hardened by the war etc. Kate's appearance just didn't feel right. She was brought in for the audience that had not seen the previous two movies, and like Kate, they needed to be explained what John feared and was trying to prevent so desperately.

I don't know if I will make version 2. Right now I'm thinkin of converting it to NTSC, and perhaps chance the audio of the intro narration. That's all I can say for the time being.

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Actually, I thought that John was said to be 10 years old in the original script (as that made him a bit more vulnerable than a teen). But though the script was filmed as written (it DOES say that John is 10) Edward Furlong was obviously about 13 or 14, and I think that in T3 references to his age at that time were adjusted...

I would say that if either of the two is wrong, it is his STATED age in T2!
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Ok, I know it's been awhile since I've seen T3, wasn't one of the Terminator's objectives to protect her as well or was that something John told him to do in the movie?

Dr. M

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Originally posted by: slark
Actually, I thought that John was said to be 10 years old in the original script (as that made him a bit more vulnerable than a teen). But though the script was filmed as written (it DOES say that John is 10) Edward Furlong was obviously about 13 or 14, and I think that in T3 references to his age at that time were adjusted...

I would say that if either of the two is wrong, it is his STATED age in T2!
In T2, John was supposed to be this 10 years old kid. In the original intro narration of T3, they changed his age from 10 to 13, because Mostow felt that Edward Furlong looked more like a 13 years old kid in T2. However, changing an age destroys the whole timeline plus the credibility of a Terminator story, since the timeline is one of the most important things. Also in T3, Sarah's age was changed (look at the birthdate on her tomb). T3 doesn't give a new date for Judgment Day, which is also a major letdown. Ask any Terminator fan about the date of Judgment Day and they will say August 29th 1997 (from T2).
Another thing is... to fit in Katherine Brewster and this so-called romantic thing between them, is a bit creepy if you still believe that John was a 10 years old kid in T2. A 10 years old kid who makes out with a girl at that age already? Not quite believable, and since Katherine was meant to have a link with John Connor's past, they changed his age to 13. :-S


Originally posted by: Doctor M
Ok, I know it's been awhile since I've seen T3, wasn't one of the Terminator's objectives to protect her as well or was that something John told him to do in the movie?

Yes, Terminator was programmed by her to protect her and John. Terminator was programmed to follow Kate's commands, instead of John's. However, looking at T3, this was flawed (if you want to know why, just let me know and I will post why).

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It sounds like your knowledge of the 3 flicks blows mine away. I won't argue plot points any further...
I'll just wait for the NTSC edit and see for myself.

Dr. M

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To refer to my previous post, here's another major flaw in T3, but it's something that most people don't notice.

The T-850 is programmed to follow Katherine Brewster's commands, as he explains later in the movie:
Kate: "Thank you for doing this."
T-850: "Your gratitude is not required. I am programmed to follow your commands."
T-850 only has to obey Katherine Brewster, and not John Connor.


But what happens the first time that T-850 and Kate meet, at the vet? Look at the conversation:
T-850: "Katherine Brewster?"
T-850: "Where is John Connor?"
Kate: "If I tell you, will you let me go?"
T-850: "Yes."
Kate: "He's...in the kennel, in a cage. (..) You said that you'd let me go."
T-850: "I lied."
Kate: "Please, please, please. You have to let me go!"
First, I'm not sure if Kate screams "Let me down" or something while the T-850 carries her on his shoulder. If it's the case, this would already be an order that the T-850 disobeys.
Second, look at Kate's last line. "You have to let me go!" Another command that the T-850 already disobeys Kate at their first meeting. Not really a good way to make good impression on the one you have to obey. One could argue that in this case, Kate was in a dangerous situation and T-850 has a parameter that he is allowed to do his own thing to keep Kate safe, but I will overthrow this argument later.


Just after the crane chase, there's a little scene in which John and T-850 talk about memories:
T-850: "Katherine Brewster, have you sustained injury?"
Kate: "Drop dead, you asshole!"
T-850: "I'm unable to comply."
This line proves that if the T-850 can't follow one of Kate's command due some matter, he will tell her can't obey.


Some scenes later, on the cemetery, when kate points the gun at T-850:
Kate: "Out of my way!"
T-850: "My mission is to protect you."
If the T-850 is programmed to follow Kate's commands, why doesn't he get out of her way when she tells (= unknowingly ordering him) him to do?


During the hearse chase, when the T-X is on top of the hearse in which our heroic trio is driving:
Kate: "Do something!"
It is only after this line that the T-850 starts to drive widly in order to try to get the T-X off the hearse's roof. If he is programmed to protect his mission objectives (T-850: "My mission is to ensure the survival of John Connor and Katherine Brewster"), why does he act so late and only after Kate unknowingly gives him order?


After John, Kate and T-850 have talked about Judgment Day and how Kate's father is involved:
Kate: "Please do what he says. You have to save my father!"
Unknowingly, Kate has ordered the T-850 to follow John's command after this dialogue... but for what? To only follow's John's idea of going after Kate's father, or to follow every command John will give in the future?


During the desire scene:
John: "You can't kill a human being. You said so yourself."
Kate: "Let him go!"
Kate jumps on T-850's back, but T-850 throws her away.
So, while being infected with the T-X's nano that tries to control him, T-850 disobeys Kate's order again. Although now, there could be a valid reason because he is infected with the T-X's files.


Now, to overthrow the thought of T-850 being able to decide when to follow Kate's commands or not, in dangerous situations:
1. After John, Kate and T-850 have talked about Judgment Day and how Kate's father is involved: T-850 still follows Kate's commands of going to her father, while he clearly has stated that the concerning area will be most likely their end:
T-850: "The Mojave area will sustain significant nuclear fallout. You will not survive."
So, even when he has warned them that they will not survive, he follows Kate's command of going there. So this proves that he can't make a decission whether it's a dangerous situation for them or not.

2. To prove that they will follow the given commands over their own analyze of a dangerous situation, here's proof from T2:
John orders the T-800 to go to Pescadero State Hospital to save his mother, even though the T-800 warns him that it will be very dangerous because the T-1000 will go there also. Another sample of proof that the Terminator follows the commands over his own analyse of a dangerous situation.

3. Back to T3. The hearse chase. The T-X is on top of the roof, almost succeeding in killing them. It is only after Kate's line that the T-850 starts to act and tries to drive wildly to get the T-X of her roof. Why does he only act after Kate shouts her line? Why not some preventive action to protect his mission objecties? Is the T-850 able to analyze the situation and mark it like dangerous?


Anyway, conclusion of this long write is that IF the T-850 is programmed to follow Kate's commands, then when doesn't he obey all the time? He will obey the commands over dangerous situations. So it doesn't make sense at all, there's no logic. But it's something soo big and stretched out over the complete movie, that most people even fail to see this big error.

Originally posted by: Doctor M
It sounds like your knowledge of the 3 flicks blows mine away. I won't argue plot points any further...
I'll just wait for the NTSC edit and see for myself.

yes, I am a major Terminator fan. Perhaps one of the biggest on the net. I have discussed many Terminator things, so I know what I'm talking about. I have written a Terminator 4 script, made some Terminator trailers (including 4 for T4), and just recently edited T3 the way I thought I could improve it. I am webmaster of my own Termiantor - Hope Of The Future website, and I'm staffmember of the biggest Terminator site on the web: Terminator Files.
So yes, I know what I'm talking of ;-)

Same Make. Same Model. New Mission.

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Originally posted by: Wesyeed
Well I've finally finished the download and watched the edit. Not bad, still very Mostow but it's better and I love what you did with the opening. Excellent stuff except I couldn't really hear the voice over well.

If you ever plan to go back and do more stuff to it, I was thinking you could use the opening of bicentennial man along with the stan winston teaser trailer for T2. I always thought they were very similar since they're both about robots on an assembly line. It goes along very well with what john says later about the terminators coming off an assembly line.

I just checked Bicentennial Man's opening, and I will not use this opening for 2 reasons:
- first of all, I don't find the intro fitting enough to be used for the T3 cut.
- secondly, every good shot of the Bicentennial Man opening has credits on it, which I cannot remove. using these shots will have unwanted credits in the T3 cut, which I don't want.

Still thanks for the suggestion, and thinking along of improving T3 even more. ;-)

Same Make. Same Model. New Mission.

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Right, I'm watching it as I write ! First thing, I think you removed to many crowd pleasing lines to fanboy logic. "I lied" is a direct reference to Commando for example, and does not in any way interefere with the T800 priority mission to say it. It's a matter of taste, but taste should not go into fanedits, it all should be to serve a better movie. Thought I agree with some great removals, like the indentifying of the wrong Connors, Nick Stahl and Claire Danes backstories should I think go (we don't care about these characters ! we care about the Terminators), these are just my first fan reactions, i'm still watching and will post more later. But quite frankly, in order for this movie to be good, it should probably be closer to 65 mn.
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Originally posted by: Stamper
Right, I'm watching it as I write ! First thing, I think you removed to many crowd pleasing lines to fanboy logic. "I lied" is a direct reference to Commando for example, and does not in any way interefere with the T800 priority mission to say it. It's a matter of taste, but taste should not go into fanedits, it all should be to serve a better movie. Thought I agree with some great removals, like the indentifying of the wrong Connors, Nick Stahl and Claire Danes backstories should I think go (we don't care about these characters ! we care about the Terminators), these are just my first fan reactions, i'm still watching and will post more later. But quite frankly, in order for this movie to be good, it should probably be closer to 65 mn.


Thanks for your comments.
I don't agree on "I lied," but that's just a matter of opinion. :-)

"Nick Stahl and Claire Danes backstories should I think go."
They have been removed as much as possible. The only links to the past are Mike Kripke's reference, plus the fact they knew each other before. This had to stay in my opinion, because later on it's revealed that her father is part of of the developement of Skynet.

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I watched the whole thing, and I agree it's much better than the original, with many edits cleverly done.

Things I don't like are the opening credits music, (I think some Brad Fiedel score would be better) as we miss the noise of the images you selected, and the future flashback insertion in the back of the truck (doesn't work for me)

If you plan a 2.0 edit, I would happilly discuss some general ideas with you, I'm a huge Terminator fan too, since 1984... I think actually we may have exchanged emails as far back as 1996

I think mostly you could move some sequences around to make it flow better in the first half. For example make the two Terminators arrives before you introduce the sarah connor character (whatever they called her this time, catherine whatever). Also remove the Ladies Night shot (no terminator Thermovision, while it should be), also some edits needs to be perfected to work, drop the killing of catherine boyfriend, it's a cliched scene, and helps make the impersonating of him more efficient. Another is John Coming out of the coffing too soon during the cemetary escape. The guys who edited this film originally should never be allowed to touch a movie again in their liftetime, including their offshots. I can either email or pm you on suggestions for improvement. I have a few. There's a real POV on your edit, a director's one, that the original, controlled by the A hole producers, have not. Really cool, despite the imperfections.
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Originally posted by: Stamper
I watched the whole thing, and I agree it's much better than the original, with many edits cleverly done.

Things I don't like are the opening credits music, (I think some Brad Fiedel score would be better) as we miss the noise of the images you selected, and the future flashback insertion in the back of the truck (doesn't work for me)

If you plan a 2.0 edit, I would happilly discuss some general ideas with you, I'm a huge Terminator fan too, since 1984... I think actually we may have exchanged emails as far back as 1996

I think mostly you could move some sequences around to make it flow better in the first half. For example make the two Terminators arrives before you introduce the sarah connor character (whatever they called her this time, catherine whatever). Also remove the Ladies Night shot (no terminator Thermovision, while it should be), also some edits needs to be perfected to work, drop the killing of catherine boyfriend, it's a cliched scene, and helps make the impersonating of him more efficient. Another is John Coming out of the coffing too soon during the cemetary escape. The guys who edited this film originally should never be allowed to touch a movie again in their liftetime, including their offshots. I can either email or pm you on suggestions for improvement. I have a few. There's a real POV on your edit, a director's one, that the original, controlled by the A hole producers, have not. Really cool, despite the imperfections.

I haven't thought about doing a second version. The only thing I have planned for January is the NTSC version, perhaps with trying to correct the background music during the intro narration.

I like your idea of dropping the scene in which the T-X kills Kate's fiancee Scott. If we don't see his death, his character gets a whole more mysterious when he opens the door when the cops arrive (especially the part where he tells the cops he can help them finding her). And then suddenly he kills the cops in the car. That would work!

I have actually thought of dropping Kate's first scenes, where she's in the mall with her fiancee. Just cut right away to general Brewster in his office talking to his assistant about the virus. I dropped this idea because Kate doesn't have a nice introduction then. The next scene in which we see her is when her buzzer goes off, when she's in bed with Scott. That's not a good introduction in my opininon. We miss her name. With this cut, the first thing we see of Scott is that he's with Kate in bed. What is doing there? Is he her boyfriend, or husband, or perhaps lover? We don't even get to hear his name. So that's why I left Kate's scene in the mall in the cut.

I don't know about the TermoVision in the stripjoint. I don't hate it.

I don't know if we have exchanged mails as far back as 1996. Could be the case. I think 1996/1997 was the year that I actually became a Terminator fan, after seeing T2 for the first time on tv.

I will not use any T2 music in my fanedit. I like the scores of both T2 and T3, but I don't think that T2's score should be present in T3. Because these 2 movies are so different, I don't think this would work. I have some unused T3 music (including alternate cues from T3 scoring rehearsel sessions --very cool btw--), that I could use, but I will not use music from T1 or T2 in T3.

I'd be happy to hear some of your thoughts for a possible version 2.0 release. I still have the project files on my computer, so if you can motivate me for a new edit, then now would be the time to discuss (before I will delete all the files from my HD after the NTSC attempt). I am all ear if there's more to improve T3.

Same Make. Same Model. New Mission.

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Woops, sorry, I thought you were the guy who wrote the original T3 online script ! My mistake.
Anyway, I'll pm you later with suggestions, I'm off rewatching your great edit again !