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Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other ) — Page 19

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^ I get what you are saying here , but some of it I highly disagree with . this part mostly …“But for all the useful information in that video, it neglects the basic fact that “fandom” itself is a grift, selling people the lie that obsessing over fictional things whose creation is completely out of your control is a positive, healthy way to live. Fandom is grass-roots marketing at its purest, the belief that opting to be walking commercials for someone else’s art can be spiritually rewarding. That you can build meaningful, healthy relationships out of that shared obsession, and that the world can be made a better, more manageable, more interesting place by simply mixing consumerism with love and letting the two impulses inform one another.” …seems to kind of undervalue this community right here . also, if you are not aware of them …look into the 501st Legion , they do a lot of charity work and visits to childrens hospitals , or the R2 builders and R2-KT …https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-heartwarming-story-behind-r2-kt-and-how-she-joined-1744986951 I would say there are many , many Star Wars fans out there turning their shared obsession into something that makes the world a better ,more interesting place mixing consumerism with love and letting the 2 impulses inform each other and I encourage my fellow OT members to post more examples here…

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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Broom Kid said:

Videos like the one above are helpful because they point out the grifting being done in the name of “fandom” at its ugliest, they point out that people can amass huge audiences in a fandom, and profit off those audiences, without ever having proved they even like the thing they’re dedicating all their time to. They can be seen as a very useful wake-up call for people wondering why they devote so much of who they are to these pursuits, when it doesn’t seem to make them like a thing more than the millions upon millions of other people who have never once even thought to join a forum or tweet about Star Wars, much less build a whole persona around it. In fact it seems to make them angrier and more frustrated way more often.

But for all the useful information in that video, it neglects the basic fact that “fandom” itself is a grift, selling people the lie that obsessing over fictional things whose creation is completely out of your control is a positive, healthy way to live. Fandom is grass-roots marketing at its purest, the belief that opting to be walking commercials for someone else’s art can be spiritually rewarding. That you can build meaningful, healthy relationships out of that shared obsession, and that the world can be made a better, more manageable, more interesting place by simply mixing consumerism with love and letting the two impulses inform one another.

Being a fan of things makes sense, is understandable, and mostly harmless. But there’s a problem with toxic fandom because the societal construct that is modern fandom is, itself, toxic.

Anyway, I like Star Wars, I like talking about it with people, and I like talking about it with people in small, quiet places, because talking about it with people in larger ones is an exercise in harvesting anger and frustration pretty much 100% of the time.

I love this post, thanks for posting it! The only thing I would add is that the video (I assume you’re referring to the Major Lee clip) is a perfect example of the problem - not the solution. I think a few folks here might be swayed by the fact that he’s supposedly on ‘our’ side of the argument, but he’s no better than the people he’s opposing. More tellingly, he debated a popular Youtuber named Mauler on a stream called EFAP and basically fell apart when it came to matters of plot, lore, characters etc etc regarding TLJ. I suspect this clip is his revenge.

For my part I love talking about Star Wars in exhausting geeky detail because not only is it a wonderful escape from the everyday, but this is something 11 year-old me could only have dreamed of back in the day (ie debating Rogue One plotholes with other manbabies!).

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Shopping Maul said:

Broom Kid said:

Videos like the one above are helpful because they point out the grifting being done in the name of “fandom” at its ugliest, they point out that people can amass huge audiences in a fandom, and profit off those audiences, without ever having proved they even like the thing they’re dedicating all their time to. They can be seen as a very useful wake-up call for people wondering why they devote so much of who they are to these pursuits, when it doesn’t seem to make them like a thing more than the millions upon millions of other people who have never once even thought to join a forum or tweet about Star Wars, much less build a whole persona around it. In fact it seems to make them angrier and more frustrated way more often.

But for all the useful information in that video, it neglects the basic fact that “fandom” itself is a grift, selling people the lie that obsessing over fictional things whose creation is completely out of your control is a positive, healthy way to live. Fandom is grass-roots marketing at its purest, the belief that opting to be walking commercials for someone else’s art can be spiritually rewarding. That you can build meaningful, healthy relationships out of that shared obsession, and that the world can be made a better, more manageable, more interesting place by simply mixing consumerism with love and letting the two impulses inform one another.

Being a fan of things makes sense, is understandable, and mostly harmless. But there’s a problem with toxic fandom because the societal construct that is modern fandom is, itself, toxic.

Anyway, I like Star Wars, I like talking about it with people, and I like talking about it with people in small, quiet places, because talking about it with people in larger ones is an exercise in harvesting anger and frustration pretty much 100% of the time.

I love this post, thanks for posting it! The only thing I would add is that the video (I assume you’re referring to the Major Lee clip) is a perfect example of the problem - not the solution. I think a few folks here might be swayed by the fact that he’s supposedly on ‘our’ side of the argument, but he’s no better than the people he’s opposing. More tellingly, he debated a popular Youtuber named Mauler on a stream called EFAP and basically fell apart when it came to matters of plot, lore, characters etc etc regarding TLJ. I suspect this clip is his revenge.

I’d say the video highlights and informs people of what certain toxic channels and media are like and how they operate - rather than an attempt at a solution to the issue.

Again, taking the video on it’s own merit it doesn’t really matter that the creator of it didn’t apparantly converse well in some sort of online debate - the points made in the video still stand - they aren’t diminished or disappear because of a chat with whoever this Mauler fellow is.

‘Revenge’? Really? Well even IF so, then it seems something constructive has come out of this supposed attempt at ‘revenge’ then - nice one 😃

As in the TLJ Spoiler thread, I don’t understand the ‘swaying’ thing - or ‘sides’ - the video seems to simply illustrate what some of the more hyperbolic, toxic, or repeatedly negative channels & media out there over a couple of years - maybe longer. It seems to be one of the few out videos there that has done such in this manner (as far I can know - though please link or share any others; I think Biggs Audio Dynamite wanted people to PM him with any other examples?)

Also, as in the TLJ Spoiler thread - it seems you are attempting to somehow discredit [or denigrate] the man behind the video - rather than discussing the actual content he highlighted in the video. A shame, that.

I’ll leave it there as I don’t know anything about this MajorLee guy (other than he made an insightful video on the toxicity in some of the Star Wars media) - and I’m now just repeating what has already been said in the TLJ Spoiler thread 😉
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

Broom Kid said:

Videos like the one above are helpful because they point out the grifting being done in the name of “fandom” at its ugliest, they point out that people can amass huge audiences in a fandom, and profit off those audiences, without ever having proved they even like the thing they’re dedicating all their time to. They can be seen as a very useful wake-up call for people wondering why they devote so much of who they are to these pursuits, when it doesn’t seem to make them like a thing more than the millions upon millions of other people who have never once even thought to join a forum or tweet about Star Wars, much less build a whole persona around it. In fact it seems to make them angrier and more frustrated way more often.

But for all the useful information in that video, it neglects the basic fact that “fandom” itself is a grift, selling people the lie that obsessing over fictional things whose creation is completely out of your control is a positive, healthy way to live. Fandom is grass-roots marketing at its purest, the belief that opting to be walking commercials for someone else’s art can be spiritually rewarding. That you can build meaningful, healthy relationships out of that shared obsession, and that the world can be made a better, more manageable, more interesting place by simply mixing consumerism with love and letting the two impulses inform one another.

Being a fan of things makes sense, is understandable, and mostly harmless. But there’s a problem with toxic fandom because the societal construct that is modern fandom is, itself, toxic.

Anyway, I like Star Wars, I like talking about it with people, and I like talking about it with people in small, quiet places, because talking about it with people in larger ones is an exercise in harvesting anger and frustration pretty much 100% of the time.

I love this post, thanks for posting it! The only thing I would add is that the video (I assume you’re referring to the Major Lee clip) is a perfect example of the problem - not the solution. I think a few folks here might be swayed by the fact that he’s supposedly on ‘our’ side of the argument, but he’s no better than the people he’s opposing. More tellingly, he debated a popular Youtuber named Mauler on a stream called EFAP and basically fell apart when it came to matters of plot, lore, characters etc etc regarding TLJ. I suspect this clip is his revenge.

I’d say the video highlights and informs people of what certain toxic channels and media are like and how they operate - rather than an attempt at a solution to the issue.

Again, taking the video on it’s own merit it doesn’t really matter that the creator of it didn’t apparantly converse well in some sort of online debate - the points made in the video still stand - they aren’t diminished or disappear because of a chat with whoever this Mauler fellow is.

‘Revenge’? Really? Well even IF so, then it seems something constructive has come out of this supposed attempt at ‘revenge’ then - nice one 😃

As in the TLJ Spoiler thread, I don’t understand the ‘swaying’ thing - or ‘sides’ - the video seems to simply illustrate what some of the more hyperbolic, toxic, or repeatedly negative channels & media out there over a couple of years - maybe longer. It seems to be one of the few out videos there that has done such in this manner (as far I can know - though please link or share any others; I think Biggs Audio Dynamite wanted people to PM him with any other examples?)

Also, as in the TLJ Spoiler thread - it seems you are attempting to somehow discredit [or denigrate] the man behind the video - rather than discussing the actual content he highlighted in the video. A shame, that.

I’ll leave it there as I don’t know anything about this MajorLee guy (other than he made an insightful video on the toxicity in some of the Star Wars media) - and I’m now just repeating what has already been said in the TLJ Spoiler thread 😉
 

He has basically picked three or four of the most outspoken Youtubers of a certain type - ie the ones who aggressively conflate SW with identity politics - and cynically merged it with a general position that ‘the haters don’t understand the genius of TLJ’. It’s a silly argument that typically ignores - and even ridicules - the enormous spectrum of opinion that actually resides between and around those two separate subjects.

The reason I pointed out his EFAP debate is that Mauler - unlike other critics - only debates films at the level of technique, storytelling, narrative consistency etc etc. And in this instance Major Lee fell to pieces and revealed quite tellingly that he doesn’t care about these things at all and loves TLJ regardless. Which is absolutely fine, but he knows that there are genuine reasons for fans to take issue with the films (particularly TLJ) and/or the direction they’re going in, and instead uses this video to strawman any detractors before delivering the punchline at the end (which is, of course, that TLJ is brilliant). It’s sloppy argumentation that adds nothing of value to this conversation.

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Let me just add (and then I’ll leave it alone) that I think there are worthy conversations to be had about internet toxicity (re Star Wars and everything else) just as there are worthy conversations to be had about identity politics in popular culture (not to mention conversations about SW storytelling, lore, characters etc etc). I just don’t think an equally toxic video that just happens to be coming from the opposite idealogical direction is the answer to this.

Okay, I’ll shut up now…

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I don’t know why you like Mauler so much. Most of his videos are multiple-hour rants about surface-level nitpicks and complaints that don’t even make sense. He’s one of my least favorite film analysis Youtubers.

Myself, the boy, two droids, and no questions asked.

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guess I will have to repeat my post from earlier in the thread for newcomers or those who forgot…my edit to the OP for further clarification …#standagainst https://www.deviantart.com/screamsinthevoid/art/Stand-Against-748884934?ga_submit_new=10%3A1528516751 " Being a toxic fan is when you’re insulting and berating and harassing the people making the movies or the people that like them." Folks , these are the exact people I speak to in making this topic , Kelly Marie Tran , Ahmed Best ,Jake Lloyd, Daisy Ridley, etc. . I understand that some people genuinely do not like the direction of the new films,or the decisions of those making them , and have some ligitimate criticisms,but this is not the place to air those concerns , you probably SHOULD start your own topic to express your views and if you are of a mind to take a stand and stick up for the aforementioned people making the movies and the people that like them that ARE being harrassed, then this is the place for it .and to be clear on the intentions of this thread , if you have something supportive to say , this is the place , if not , take it elsewhere or start your own topic . I think I have done my part to be as clear as I can .

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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Yeah, not trying to start a debate, but I also feel Mauler is a bit biased in his opinions as well.

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StarkillerAG said:

I don’t know why you like Mauler so much. Most of his videos are multiple-hour rants about surface-level nitpicks and complaints that don’t even make sense. He’s one of my least favorite film analysis Youtubers.

While I don’t share your view, I certainly don’t hold Mauler as some paragon of truth, even if I do enjoy his content. And while I’m at it, I’m not the biggest fan of EFAP as it tends to slide into a ‘bullying gang’ mentality at times - more because of the other participants than Mauler himself. In fact during the debate I cited, I often felt Major Lee wasn’t getting a fair hearing, even if I didn’t agree with his comments. I think a one-on-one with Mauler would’ve been much more productive and civil.

But I think Mauler does an admirable job of attempting to stay on point. When it’s about plot, it’s about plot. When it’s about lore, it’s about lore. He’s very clear about when he’s being subjective (ie his rants) and objective (his analyses). He’s all about the films and the craft. It doesn’t mean he’s always right - I often disagree with him - but I do think he’s fair and doesn’t resort to the kind of strawmanning that other Youtubers do. And even more ironically, Major Lee had supposedly insulted Mauler on Twitter way before the EFAP thing and found himself having to apologise when he discovered that Mauler was rather reasonable. Like I keep saying, toxicity goes both ways.

And to Screams (if it is indeed me you’re referring to), I’m not trying to derail the thread or get a rise out of anyone. The thread, as I see it, is about toxicity and I honestly feel that the Major Lee video is feeding the fire, not extinguishing it. I don’t like the idea of internet bullying any more than you do, so I hope you understand that this is all in the interest of conversation and a shared desire for a nicer, more civil conversational space.

Peace and may the Force do its thing…

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As fans we have to each have our own individual sifting filter for virtually every story that is put out there with the brand name attached. As always I thank the maker for this hideaway in the middle of the Dune Sea where I can converse with others who understand the long history and the ins and outs.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.

“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford

My review blog: thehificelluloidmonster.wordpress.com

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“Being a toxic fan is when you’re insulting and berating and harassing the people making the movies or the people that like them.”

I think it would be sensible to add “in the context of this thread”. There’s more to toxicity than what you’re suggesting, and while it’s your prerogotive to frame the discussion of this thread, I think it is rather odd to lay claim to a term in this manner. Toxic fandom is a term, that describes certain behaviours by fans in general, it isn’t limited to a specific group anymore than racism is limited to white men. Now, it is possible to limit a discussion to the racist expressions of white men, but to then rigourously define racism as insulting or berating non-white people, justly invites criticism, as your definition of toxic fandom does by me.

I also think, that if you are going to limit the scope of the discussion, it should be done in a consistent manner, and so we’re on a slippery slope when we applaud a video that conflates insulting and berating a work of art with harassing the people making the movies or the people that like them. Expressing a strong negative opinion on a work of art, no matter how unreasonable that opinion seems to be, does not automatically equate to toxicity. The fact that the creator of the video not just addresses the toxic elements in the fandom, but also attempts to frame these extremes as evidence, that many of the criticisms leveled at the work in question are invalid, makes the video suspect in my view.

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Anchorhead said:

If these are already posted, I must have missed them. If not, they are both interesting reads.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-washington-posts-analysis-of-star-wars-toxic-fandom-1828856645

https://io9.gizmodo.com/when-fandom-is-the-problem-1835695031

The second article is a breath of fresh air, as it looks at toxicity as a negative exponent of fandom, and the relationship between fans and creators in general, and how a discussion within a fandom can become toxic both in the rejection, and in support of a work of art.

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…UHHHH, where did I ever conflate toxicity and racism with being a white male problem Dre ? And I was not the one who brought that video into the discussion here ,and I am not "laying claim " to anything , I think those who understand the spirit and intention of this thread know perfectly well what I meant

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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screams in the void said:

…UHHHH, where did I ever conflate toxicity and racism with being a white male problem Dre ? And I was not the one who brought that video into the discussion here ,and I am not "laying claim " to anything , I think those who understand the spirit and intention of this thread know perfectly well what I meant

You misunderstand me. I did not say you conflate toxicity and racism with being a white male problem. I drew a parallel between defining toxicity as being strictly the insulting and berating and harassing one specific group of people, and defining racism as the insulting and berating and harassing a specific group of people. I’m not saying you define racism as such. I’m pointing out, that such definitions are faulty, and so rather than state:

“Being a toxic fan is when you’re insulting and berating and harassing the people making the movies or the people that like them.”

It would be more apt to state:

“Being a toxic fan is when you’re insulting and berating creators and other fans either in rejection or support of works of art. However, in this thread I would like to restrict the discussion to the toxic elements in the Star Wars fandom, that insult, berate, and harass the people making the movies or the people that like them.”

According to your definition a person who insults, berates, and harrasses those that dislike a movie are not toxic fans. I reject such a notion, just like I would reject the notion, that a person of color who insults, berates, and harrasses white men for the color of their skin, is not a racist.

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except you left out the part where I clearly stated " I understand that some people genuinely do not like the direction of the new films,or the decisions of those making them , and have some ligitimate criticisms,but this is not the place to heir those concerns , you probably SHOULD start your own topic to express your views and if you are of a mind to take a stand and stick up for the aforementioned people making the movies and the people that like them that ARE being harrassed, then this is the place for it ."

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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screams in the void said:

except you left out the part where I clearly stated " I understand that some people genuinely do not like the direction of the new films,or the decisions of those making them , and have some ligitimate criticisms,but this is not the place to heir those concerns , you probably SHOULD start your own topic to express your views and if you are of a mind to take a stand and stick up for the aforementioned people making the movies and the people that like them that ARE being harrassed, then this is the place for it ."

That statement doesn’t change your definition of toxic fandom, though. It in essence just states, that not all those, that express negative views are part of the toxic fandom, but this thread is not about those views. However, the definition of toxic fandom you use, excludes those toxic fans, that insult, berate and harass those that dislike the movies. These people are not addressed in the above statement either. It’s not that you choose to exclude those people from the discussion in this thread, that bothers me. It’s that you exclude them from the definition of toxic fandom in general, that I take issue with.

That is why I applaud the article Anchorhead posted:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/when-fandom-is-the-problem-1835695031

It in my view rightly defines toxic fandom in the way fans engage with creators, and other fans in general, not across the line of like and dislike for a specific work.

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^ taken from the https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/d1nk9t/oh_dear_the_desperation_is_real discussion thread commenting on it.
 

Wow. Just take an image, change the context, and then deliberately mislead / lie to suit an agenda - and to further it. Likely for the clicks or +1s etc - as alluded to in the comment at the bottom-right of the image.
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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This is getting way past deranged now.
That username is familiar…

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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There is another form of negativity I like to call “passive-aggressive trolling.” These are people who do not break forum rules, but still manage to constantly disrupt threads.

I think how most forums define trolling needs an update.

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Rodney-2187 said:

There is another form of negativity I like to call “passive-aggressive trolling.” These are people who do not break forum rules, but still manage to constantly disrupt threads.

I think how most forums define trolling needs an update.

^ agreed , especially those who ignore the opening post, the spirit of the thread, or wish to knock your thread and further their own beliefs or agenda and just carry on anyway…

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/