logo Sign In

Info Wanted: Is a 35mm reel scan going to be any good?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Hi, I’m a newbie and I feel like a fly amongst giants here.

My short background story is I bought a new hld-x9 player back in 2003 for $5000 and the ultimate edition as Lucas said he was never going to release the GOUT again. I played each disc to make sure it worked and was pretty impressed withthe quality, then went travelling for 7 years, so my hld-x9 player has had a pretty good life.

I came across this website recently and saw a user say that he has a hld-x9 and the gout dvd processed by g-force’s script is about 10 times better than the laserdiscs, so c’est la vie… although i was a bit gutted at the time.

I’ve spent a lot of time reading these forums and I (correct me if I’m wrong), get the impression that the “holy grail” is a scanned 35mm reel to reel of the sw saga.

However 16mm has a resolution of 1800 lines (better than hd video) and the person who did the puggo release says that it’s not better quality than the gout dvd, and having seen some scans on their website I would tend to agree.

I think I’ve also seen some scans of 35mm (by negative1?) and also they did not seem to be of better quality than the gout dvd.

So I guess my question is, from a “beating the quality of the gout” standpoint, is a 35mm reel to reel scan going to be any good?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I am FAR from being an expert anywhere near this field but I'd have to say that if someone were to have access to some proper resource a project like this COULD be very promising. 

My guess would be that they'd essentially be doing what Lucas & Co did when they created the S.E.....essentially making a new master print from the 35mm scan, as things go I could have this entirely wrong too.

At this point I'd figure there would be some processing (via hard core fans, not Lowry) to revive and maintain what most of us oldies got the lucky chance to see on the big screen when it was released.  

I realize that this probably doesn't answer your question completely but I wanted to at least take an "ordinary guy" stab at it.

:)

Author
Time

One issue is the quality of the print.  In my experience, quality control of the 16mm prints I used was very poor.  The ones I've used were severely overcropped, poorly centered, hairs in the emulsion, had subtitles crossing frame boundaries, and missing frames. Older prints often experience varying degrees of color shift.  And any print, including 35mm, is going to get scratched just from normal use.  I think that if you want to make a really good transfer, you need to get a 35mm print that is as close to pristine as possible.  Then you also need a very high quality scan.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

Author
Time

The GOUT has really bad blurring and smearing, which a good 35mm scan would not have.

Star Wars Revisited Wordpress

Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress

Author
Time

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:


doubleofive said:

The GOUT has really bad blurring and smearing, which a good 35mm scan would not have.

I don't believe that the blurring was caused by the scan, but by postprocessing after the scan.
Right, making a new scan better than the GOUT, which was his question really. ;-)

Star Wars Revisited Wordpress

Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I would think that if you could scan the 35mm at a very high resolution, each frame could then be cleaned up with a scratch filter and the whole thing could be color corrected.  This should turn out pretty good.  I have scanned a ton of very old slides and they have scratches, etc. but my Epson scanner does an awesome job of automatically making them look like new old photos.  I am a believer after seeing what that can do. 

If I had access to a 35mm print, I would build a rig to run it through my scanner a few frames at a time, pausing for awhile so it could automatically scan the frames, then move forward and scan the next batch, etc.  After it was all done, it would be a matter of carefully cutting and pasting each frame to get the borders right.  It may be possible to automate this also if the film can be lined up exactly while it is scanning.  Another way might be to use a tool that auto rotates it so the edges are perfectly horizontal and vertical, then look for the edges of the actual picture and auto crop it.

Anyway, it would be a fun project even if it took 3 years to complete for one film.

I am not sure how to post images, but I just did a quick touch up to a frame from the Puggo Grande to illustrate my point, and it came out pretty well.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

thorr said: I am not sure how to post images, but I just did a quick touch up to a frame from the Puggo Grande to illustrate my point, and it came out pretty well.

Upload images to tinypic and then paste in the URL that it gives you, like this:

[img=http://site.com/image.jpg]

Author
Time

I don't know where the adage of 16mm=1800 lines comes from. That's not really correct. Film doesn't really have a fixed resolution anyway. I've worked in 16mm film a lot for various television series, and I would say that a 16mm negative done with modern 35mm lenses and new film stock is roughly equivalent to about HD 1920-x1080 resolution. In terms of the detail level you get, I would say it is roughly comparable, but this is just a ballpark impression on my part.

However, 16mm prints of Star Wars aren't newly shot negative. They are old, and they are so worn that there's nearly no point in working with them because of the severity of the inevitable damage and dirt. However, even if they were clean, the detail level is probably not much better than standard definition. The type of home telecines like Puggo's will benefit from using HD cameras, but only because the camera quality is not good you need HD to get the detail of a professional SD scan. But then you have exposure problems and stuff too.

Anyway, I'm not sure if a 16mm scan would be better than the GOUT. Puggo's stuff is more for the novelty than any practical purpose. I would be interested in seeing what an HD telecine looks like though, because I guess if you processed it enough it could start to look pretty good (look at what Avisynth scripting has done to the GOUT, for example). But in general, 16mm prints don't have much practical value in terms of creating a high quality preservation. The quality simply isn't there to capture. Like I said, 16mm negative from 2010 will give you about HD resolution, 16mm positive reduction prints from 1977 will give you the detail level of a VHS tape, roughly speaking.

35mm, on the other hand, ought to be useful, depending on the quality. You still have stuff like dirt and scratches, and it will be tons of work to get rid of these. But just in terms of resolution, even though 35mm negative will have more resolution than 1080p HD, release prints don't. In studies conducted they have been found to be on average something closer to 800 lines, although in my experience they are closer to the resolution of typical 1920x1080 in terms of detail level. So, 35mm ought to give you pretty good quality picture, not as good as anything you would see on BD or even broadcast HD, but it should be better than a modern DVD and would look quite nice when see in high definition. The biggest problem is fading and scratching though. If you wanted to restore an entire print from top to bottom and get rid of the scratching by hand-painting it all out, it would literally take you years. Computer programs are helpful, but they soften the picture and basically hide the dirt. I'm not aware of anything comparable to professional custom-software that some post houses use like Lowry that actually paints over the dirt--the amount of hardware Lowry has to use is pretty intense, so I'm sure it will be a bit longer before this is available commercially. And then of course you have the fading. I have my own theories on how to treat this, but you can see in Puggo's 16mm that there usually isn't any colour to pull out because it no longer exists. It's a difficult thing to deal with on material this old that likely has not been stored properly.

Author
Time

Chewtobacca said:

thorr said: I am not sure how to post images, but I just did a quick touch up to a frame from the Puggo Grande to illustrate my point, and it came out pretty well.

Upload images to tinypic and then paste in the URL that it gives you, like this:

[img=http://site.com/image.jpg]

Thanks!  Keep in mind this was just a quick proof of concept.  I got rid of the scratches and played with the color.

Original

http://i52.tinypic.com/ziocc9.png

New

http://i52.tinypic.com/2lcsdxs.png