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THX 1138 "preservations" + the 'THX 1138 Italian Cut' project (Released) — Page 61

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Spaced Ranger said:

ww12345 said:

... "old school" cinematographers shot like that. ... I always over-frame shots, knowing that I can crop it in the darkroom to the image that I really wanted. ... a lot of cinematographers who came over from still photography (a la Stanley Kubrick) knew and practiced these methods.

George Lucas never had that background -- he began on motion pictures. What he framed was what he wanted (or the best he could get). Interesting that you mentioned Kubrick. I read where he was on the set of 2001: A Space Odyssey with a square camera viewfinder composing the shots for his cinematographer! How's that technique for a Cinerama extravaganza.  :)

Yeah, I know George Lucas never had that background - I was referring to the various TV cinematographers (like that example from Star Trek TOS) who I would imagine would have some background in traditional photography... Personally, I think that Lucas just got lucky with his framing and various techniques, especially in American Graffiti and Star Wars.

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THX11384EB said:

 

I am curious if whoever(AntcuFaalb?) is doing the LD capping would need a copy of the Japanese LD? I have it, and would like to help out any way I can.

I captured my copy for msycamore when I did the others, and it's essentially the same master, warts and all.

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Where were you in '77?

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ww12345 said:

Spaced Ranger said:

ww12345 said:

... "old school" cinematographers shot like that. ... I always over-frame shots, knowing that I can crop it in the darkroom to the image that I really wanted. ... a lot of cinematographers who came over from still photography (a la Stanley Kubrick) knew and practiced these methods.

George Lucas never had that background -- he began on motion pictures. What he framed was what he wanted (or the best he could get). Interesting that you mentioned Kubrick. I read where he was on the set of 2001: A Space Odyssey with a square camera viewfinder composing the shots for his cinematographer! How's that technique for a Cinerama extravaganza.  :)

Yeah, I know George Lucas never had that background - I was referring to the various TV cinematographers (like that example from Star Trek TOS) who I would imagine would have some background in traditional photography... Personally, I think that Lucas just got lucky with his framing and various techniques, especially in American Graffiti and Star Wars.

I think the experienced veteran Cinematographers George worked with probably helped too. ;)

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

I think the experienced veteran Cinematographers George worked with probably helped too. ;)

Not to take anything away from GL, he was just not good enough to make THX 1138 as well as it came out. He knows it (he knew it even with the Star Wars films) and lamented it in one of the many George Lucas / Star Wars documentaries.

Don Pedro Colley explains, in this LucasFan.com interview ...
http://www.lucasfan.com/thx1138/interv.html :

At first, it felt like we were doing another student film. However, when the final cast was assembled, we worked very hard at letting George know that we were all responsible .... Every day, before we shot a scene, the four of us would brainstorm to get to the subtextral content in the script , on film. We kept telling George this film will not work unless we are able to breath life into these characters. Unless an audience can connect with these life forms, who live in that real world, we would have nothing!! George wasn't too happy to have to deal with our ideas, but he came around.

 

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Spaced Ranger said:

SilverWook said:

The WB Tv logo at the end dates the print to pre 1984...

So, any release with the WB Kinney logo would have been mastered sometime 1970 through 1972.

However, with Lucas' Star Wars success (post 1977) and WB subsequently re-releasing THX 1138 (with the WB cuts restored), did WB simply put the excised footage back into the master and make new distribution prints (Lucas' restored original/1st edit) ... with the original logo also unchanged? Lucas probably wasn't even involved in that one (beyond demanding that it be done).

As the old WB Kinney logo is part of the film in this instance (in opening & end credits) a proper restoration should always contain it, films always gets its modern up to date distribution logo before the film starts anyway (before Buck Rogers in this instance) and after the end credits. In the early home video versions of THX they instead updated the in-film logo at the beginning with their current one. An ugly move, but not that uncommon, it happened on the P&S releases of Star Wars in the 80's or 90's as well. In short, all three theatrical releases of THX 1138 contained the old WB Kinney logo but the '78 re-release most likely had this one:

before the actual feature began and obviously this one in 2004:

There is of course a possibility they actually replaced the Kinney with the Communications Company logo for the '78 prints but I would be very surprised if that was actually done. Even SilverWook's 16mm print still had the original logo in place.

Spaced Ranger said:

From the WB re-release forward, a TV broadcast would be of Lucas' restored original/1st edit (excluding mangling by individual TV stations or networks).

Yes, I guess so. I wonder if THX ever got broadcasted between '71 and '78.

Spaced Ranger said:

So any broadcast that included those missing SEN shots would identify it as Lucas' original edit. -- Does this sound right?

IMO it doesn't sound right to identify it as such if it's a TV-edit of his restored film but I guess that was what it was advertised as at the time.

 

Speaking of TV-versions, have Spielberg's classic TV-movie Duel ever been re-broadcasted in later years? A case where only the theatrical version is available, would love to get my hands on the original US broadcast version. I guess we can only hope they include it on a new upcoming release, it's Spielberg's preferred cut after all.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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AntcuFaalb said:

[Part 1: The LD Player]

[Reserved for Part 2: The Comb Filter]

[Reserved for Part 3: The Capture Card]

[Reserved for Part 4: Cables, etc.]

Sounds great AntcuFaalb, I'll try to post those examples of smearing on Silver's captures I talked about earlier so you can compare if it's in the master or not.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Really excited about this project and glad to see that there is a high-tech capture happening. I have a DVD 5 version that was made by an old member here years ago, but it could definitely be better.

Anctufaalb, when do you plan on doing the capture and combining?

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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msycamore said:

AntcuFaalb said:

[Part 1: The LD Player]

[Reserved for Part 2: The Comb Filter]

[Reserved for Part 3: The Capture Card]

[Reserved for Part 4: Cables, etc.]

Sounds great AntcuFaalb, I'll try to post those examples of smearing on Silver's captures I talked about earlier so you can compare if it's in the master or not.

OK, thanks!

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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Mavimao said:

Really excited about this project and glad to see that there is a high-tech capture happening. I have a DVD 5 version that was made by an old member here years ago, but it could definitely be better.

Anctufaalb, when do you plan on doing the capture and combining?

Ha! :-) I wouldn't call it "high-tech". "Well-planned" might be a better description.

Was the old member Rikter Blaksvn?

I plan on doing the capturing in ~1 month. I'm still waiting to receive some cables and I need to setup my equipment in another room in our house (so our forthcoming baby can get the current computer room).

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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AntcuFaalb said:

Part 1: The LD Player

... The only LD player that ... meets these requirements is the Pioneer CLD-1010.

Aside from "LD Player Requirements: ... 3. Cheap!", would your Panasonic LX-900 be an equivalent or better choice for best captures?
(Just an intellectual-exercise question for those with possible-future-purchase-options in mind.)

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AntcuFaalb said:

Mavimao said:

Really excited about this project and glad to see that there is a high-tech capture happening. I have a DVD 5 version that was made by an old member here years ago, but it could definitely be better.

Anctufaalb, when do you plan on doing the capture and combining?

Ha! :-) I wouldn't call it "high-tech". "Well-planned" might be a better description.

Was the old member Rikter Blaksvn?

I plan on doing the capturing in ~1 month. I'm still waiting to receive some cables and I need to setup my equipment in another room in our house (so our forthcoming baby can get the current computer room).

Well it seems more high tech than hooking up an LD player to a DVD recorder. 

and yes! That was the name Blacksvn!

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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AntcuFaalb said:

Part 2: The Comb Filter

... I find 3D comb filter artifacts ... more objectionable than the composite video artifacts ... that a 3D comb filter is designed to remove from stationary frames. ... OTers who love 3D comb filters can always use a Leitch DPS-475/575 or tritical's TComb on the raws I'll be posting to Usenet.

So, for the present, only 2D comb filtering works without undesirable side-effects on moving picture areas that 3D filters generate. What about your research into the idea of a "counter-phase overlay", as a better comb filter technique for moving picture areas?

[BTW, to get up to speed on 2D/3D comb filters, see Extron Electronics' single page write-up NTSC Decoding Basics (Part 4) -- http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=ntscdb4 .]

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@ SilverWook

I'm guessing that you've watched both the U.S. laserdisc and the 16mm enough times to definitively know their differences.
Are the newer WB logo and the removed SEN cuts/shots (5) when talking with the children, the only editorial changes between the 2 versions?

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I think msycamore mentioned some scenes in the 16mm are in a different order similar to the mysterious Italian recording? (THX's trial, the visit from LUH in the white void, and THX being manipulated by the unseen technicians.) The individual scenes themselves are not cut differently, AFAIK.

The logo and the SEN extended scenes are the only ones I'm sure about.

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Thanks.

I was planning to set up a parallel-stream playback to check what was juggled around and if any further edits were hidden in those swaps. (Frames-gone-off-sync would be regarded more as possible frame-drops rather than edits, until otherwise verified.)

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Spaced Ranger said:

@ SilverWook

I'm guessing that you've watched both the U.S. laserdisc and the 16mm enough times to definitively know their differences.
Are the newer WB logo and the removed SEN cuts/shots (5) when talking with the children, the only editorial changes between the 2 versions?

SilverWook said:

I think msycamore mentioned some scenes in the 16mm are in a different order similar to the mysterious Italian recording? (THX's trial, the visit from LUH in the white void, and THX being manipulated by the unseen technicians.) The individual scenes themselves are not cut differently, AFAIK.

The logo and the SEN extended scenes are the only ones I'm sure about.

As I have not yet seen your 16mm print version besides those clips Puggo sent me, I'm only going by what you told us back in 2011:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/THX-1138-preservations-Italian-Cut-available-see-1st-post/post/476322/#TopicPost476322

"I just looked at the DV tape of that crappy 16mm transfer I did a while back. (As I needed some blank space at the end for capturing some clips for another project.) The scene with the cops tasering THX while he's naked with LUH comes before the trial and medical exam scenes, as it does in the Italian cut. (And no obvious signs of splices.) Can't believe I didn't notice that before."

I went into details on the editing differences here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/THX-1138-preservations-Italian-Cut-available-see-1st-post/post/588049/#TopicPost588049

Scene order in Italian and German TV-broadcast and SilverWook's English 16mm print:

Drug evasion arrest --> LUH visits THX --> Medical examinations --> Trial & "pain prods" (electro-shock batons) scene --> THX is being monitored & researched --> THX put in prison

Scene order in English home video versions and 2004 Cut:

Drug evasion arrest --> Trial & "pain prods" (electro-shock batons) scene --> THX gets medical examinations --> THX is being monitored & researched --> LUH visits THX --> THX put in prison

I'm very curious to see if the 16mm print does contain the same weird anomaly I described happens between "LUH's visit" and the "Medical examinations" in the Italian broadcast.

As said before, TV-edit origin or not, WHY SHUFFLE AROUND THESE SCENES?!!

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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msycamore said:

Scene order in English home video versions and 2004 Cut:

Drug evasion arrest --> Trial & "pain prods" (electro-shock batons) scene --> THX gets medical examinations --> THX is being monitored & researched --> LUH visits THX --> THX put in prison

Yes, I remember that. But first, a theory. My thinking was/is:

 

Lucas' original cut [1st version, 1970] was never seen when Warner Bros. took it away from him. WB then re-edited it (only removed some minutes of material -- by Lucas' own account) for theatrical release [2nd version, 1971]Lucas' Star Wars success in 1977 gave him new clout to demand that THX 1138 be restored back to his original cut. So, it was this originally unreleased 1st version that was finally released in WB's 1978 theatrical "re-release" and, thereafter, on television.

Note: If your preservation of the locally(?) re-edited Italian TV (with flashback edits, voice-over, and "rush-job" snipping) has the missing SEN-talking-to-children shots, then it was recorded before (or shortly after) 1983. Otherwise, it was a "next version" recording.

The next version (so goes my theory) was with the home-video releases. Lucas himself removed some of the SEN-talking-to-children shots and re-ordered the THX-caught sequence. This was Lucas' second cut [3rd version, 1983].

The next version was the new home-video releases (notably DVD), which contained old outtakes and extensive CG & digital manipulation. This was Lucas' third cut [4th version, 2004].

(I haven't reviewed the 2010 Blu-ray release to determine if it is yet another cut or just color-timing cleanup.)

 

This makes sense, I believe, because it fits with Lucas' incessant tinkering with his already released works. (Or ... maybe it's just his father's business sense, in him, to resell the same product ... for more enjoyment and greater efficiency ... to make another buck?)

Anyway, I reviewed the 1997 Bravo letterbox broadcast recording (the US laserdisc vintage, I expect) and came up with your same "English home video versions and 2004 Cut" sequence of THX-caught:

  • [dissolve] 2 roboPolice escort THX up hallway [fadeout]
    readout: "Drug Evasion Arrest" "Place In Research Cell Pending Trial"
    beating by roboPolice w human supervisor
    readout: number counting 5 to 6
  • trial & computed verdict w readout: "Conditioned" "Detention"
    [dissolve] electro-prod live-practice by roboPolice in white limbo [fadeout]
  • medical exam & drugging w readout: "Chemical Imbalance" "Reusable Parts"
    [dissolve] 1 roboPolice escort THX down hallway [fadeout]
  • technicians neuro-conditioning THX
  • THX & LUH join in white limbo & separation by roboPolice w human supervisor [fadeout]
  • [fadein] delivery to detention in white limbo

 

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Spaced Ranger said:

The next version (so goes my theory) was with the home-video releases. Lucas himself would remove the SEN-talking-to-children shots and re-order the THX-caught sequence. This would be Lucas' second re-edit [3rd version, 1983].

Yes, I've had those thoughts as well but at this point I really don't know what to believe. The thing that would make most sense is of course that they simply used an '78 Interpositive for the home video debut. But with Lucas everything is possible I guess. We need to get ahold of a '78 release print.

I checked these editing points in the Italian TV version again and found something interesting...

Home Video version: from the medical examinations scene there's a dissolve to a corridor shot where he's taken away by a cop and from there it fades to black and THX is being monitored & researched.

Italian TV broadcast: from the medical examinations scene there's actually an awkward cut (part of the dissolve is still there!) to the same corridor shot where he's taken away and from there it cuts to trial.

A real botch job, that cut and the remains of that dissolve does at least tell us that this isn't the original editing. So why even make a cut here instead of keeping it as is? Obviously there must have been another scene before the corridor shot which the dissolve was used for. Will be interesting to see if it is exactly the same way in the 16mm print. It just keeps getting weirder...

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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 (Edited)

After your "Home Video version" shots descriptions, I went back and added more shot-detail to my last post (and, yes, they match). While doing that, I tried for more clarity on my theory (too many long sentences and parenthetical additions). I hope it's easier to follow now.

msycamore said:

Italian TV broadcast: ... A real botch job, that cut and the remains of that dissolve does at least tell us that this isn't the original editing. So why even make a cut here instead of keeping it as is?

I would say, from it's lack of polish, that it's not GL's bewailed original cut nor the hated WB re-edit. That would make it an Italian TV network re-edit -- like Bravo's 1997 broadcast with the nudity glow-ball censoring, only more so. To quote ST:TNG's Data quoting Sherlock Holmes -- "when you eliminate the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be true".
Or we might try a call (to 1-900-THX-1138?) for assistance. *ring* *ring* "What's wrong?"

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The first step for the initial corrections of the "missing scene/shots" faded 16mm print was to get it all working in Avisynth. I had already used the VirtualDub plug-in Gradation Curves (see it's development here http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/THX-1138-preservations-Italian-Cut-available-see-1st-post/post/589761/#TopicPost589761) to good effect. Still, it would be more convenient to have a single, all-in-one, Avisynth script. The problem was finding an Avisynth plug-in that would duplicate a paint program's complete Histogram functions -- low/high in, low/high out, gamma, and mid-tone compress/expand for independently adjustable R-G-B.

In color correction, be careful never to make adjustments that "crush" dark areas or "blow-out" light ones. That won't happen if one stays with gamma and mid-tone adjustments, which manipulates color within the spectrum limits. So, no low/high input/output manipulation, except in 2 extraordinary cases:  [1] you're Peter Jackson (I'd say "George Lucas" but let's give the poor man a rest);  [2] color correcting faded film.

In the Peter Jackson case, you've made a perfectly fine looking movie in The Fellowship Of The Ring theatrical edition:

But there's a hankerin' for the green in show-biz, and it spills over into your later TFOTR extended edition:

If you had used gamma and mid-tones, OT forum members would have fair-chance at restoring the original colors. But you used low/high adjustments and crushed a quarter of the Red channel to achieve your effect.
(By inverting only the minimum "0" brightness to maximum "255", R-G-B channel crush shows their colors.):

Bad boy, PJ!

 

However, in the faded film case, the R-G-B film layers fade, that is, they lighten up -- darks become lighter and lights become lighter still -- effectively losing contrast toward lightness (in different degrees for the different layers):

 

For color fade correction, you use the low/high input to take those reduced contrast ends and spread them back across the spectrum (to make known blacks black and known whites white -- use an eye-dropper tool to roughly verify R=G=B):


Histogram  low input  high input
RED            64             160
GREEN        16             200
BLUE           16            176

 

From that new base, you only need to adjust the gamma to slide the concentration of color around inside the spectrum (to make known middle greys grey -- and everything else just falls in line):


Histogram  low input  high input  gamma
RED            64             160            0.8
GREEN        16             200            1.6
BLUE           16             176            1.2

Done! Is that amazing or what? But the important thing is, now without mid-tones adjustments, this can be accomplished completely within Avisynth using the Levels() function.

As discussed some pages after the above link, we discovered a number of issues that needed addressing for this clip:

  • The capture process created chromatic aberration (R-G-B color-layers slightly expanded or contracted due to lens photography) and needed shifting and resizing for better alignment.
  • An apparent narrow depth of field produced haloing on slightly out-of-focus layers. A DeHalo filter helped reduce that effect.
  • Generational film grain was severe and needed a mild temporal denoising to make the grain reduce itself without blurring the picture.
  • Finally, the above demonstrated color correction was applied to de-fade the film.

 

Here are select, split-screen samples, all with one Avisynth script:

 

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 (Edited)

Impressive! Most impressive!

If another print ever turns up, this could be a lifesaver.

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Where were you in '77?

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Wow, Spaced Ranger - that's really, really cool! I'm definitely impressed! That gives me hope for some faded 16mm films I'll be working on soon.