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Team Negative1 - Star Wars 1977 - 35mm Eastman Vs Technicolot Theatrical Version (* unfinished project *) — Page 5

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Nod, it’s constructive criticism as opposed to destructive criticism.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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FrankT said:

So I guess the team will have to change cameras then?

I think they mentioned that the affected scenes were from their original scan, and they have a better method now.

I might be remembering wrong though.

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Dek Rollins said:

The preview is amazing! Looks so good. I do have a question, though. Why is the image so squished? I run it in VLC and set aspect ratio to 2.35, and it seems wider than it should be. It’s definitely wider than the SSE, as I pulled them both up and looked at them together. They’re both set to the same ratio, but the tech preview is stretched horizontally. Setting to 2.21 almost helps, but it’s ever so slightly too tall then.

This is an old post I wrote, and for any people that care, I have compared the preview to Despecialized, and when set to 2.35:1 AR in VLC, in matches spot on. Though a couple of wide shots are slightly different. Anyway, seems that it must be the SSE that’s too tall. I have no idea what is supposedly correct, though.

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SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
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DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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 (Edited)

Robino said:

Lasz said:

Well, the color and contrast look amazing already!

However, I did notice some quite noticeable light streaking on the far right side of the frame almost throughout the entire sample:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1519/23934842693_0112dfce27_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1716/24453343812_0abd9c0e54_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1677/24453343692_1b4559e81e_o.jpg

Is this present on the film or did it get introduced in the scanning process?

These artifacts are not part of the film print and were introduced by the acquisition device, in this case a DSLR camera.

It is called “CMOS SMEARING” and it happens on very bright areas of a CMOS captured image.

Some cameras are better than others but in this case it’s pretty bad unfortunately.

Just so that the previous scan won’t be a total loss, you can use portions of it as an extra feature in this current project. The shots of the light sabers and the engine burners on the backside of the X-wing/Y-wing fighters are enhanced by the unintentional light smear from the digital camera, giving the shots a sense of surrealism.

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captainsolo said:

hairy_hen said:

The 70mm picture quality could potentially be quite nice, though with an aspect ratio of 2.2:1, some image would be missing from the sides.

The soundtrack is quite the most desirable aspect of it, of course. I know there is at least one privately owned 70mm print of the first movie out there, but nobody seems to know who actually owns it. Most likely this person would be unwilling to loan it out for scanning. I’ve never heard anything about whether there are any existing copies of the other two.

poita said:

Re 70mm, I have seen two 70mm Star Wars prints, only one was in projectable shape and both were far too faded to red to be useful for restoration of the image, it is extremely likely that they all are far too faded now.
Plus 70mm is cropped at the sides, so I don’t think it will be a lot of use for the visual restoration.

Any 70 prints would be Eastman likely and virtually all from that vintage are typically in tatters or so faded they are unprojectable. Additionally the mag tracks can go if not properly stored.

Imagewise, the only benefits would be the finer grain and what if any visual changes were induced through the blowup–albeit those you could tell through heavy fading. The big draw will be the Dolby 70 baby boom in the six track mag stripe. If it could be found, transferred and turned it would become a most powerful ally. 😉
But of course all this would be much easier if we could access the source and do a straight transfer, much like some 70mm mixes that got direct transfers to LD and DVD. Like the earlier Criterion 2001, any magnetic we might be able to work with would likely have some distortion or damage after all these years.

The IB will be the best image overall and the most filmic/organic feeling. The Eastman/LPP will be what you’d have seen in 1977 and what the movie should look like from the processes of the day on general release.

Timing is everything. Team Negative One’s 70mm film scanner is now up and running and we’ve already scanned The Empire Strikes Back 70mm, in 4k*:

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/post/2016/02/04/70mm-Empire-Strikes-Back-in-4k

  • Well, as much as we have of it anyway. If anyone here has a 70mm print of Star Wars you’d like scanned, please let us know! 😃

TheStarWarsTrilogy.com.
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Donations always welcome: Paypal | Bitcoin: bc1qzr9ejyfpzm9ea2dglfegxzt59tys3uwmj26ytj

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Williarob said:

captainsolo said:

hairy_hen said:

The 70mm picture quality could potentially be quite nice, though with an aspect ratio of 2.2:1, some image would be missing from the sides.

The soundtrack is quite the most desirable aspect of it, of course. I know there is at least one privately owned 70mm print of the first movie out there, but nobody seems to know who actually owns it. Most likely this person would be unwilling to loan it out for scanning. I’ve never heard anything about whether there are any existing copies of the other two.

poita said:

Re 70mm, I have seen two 70mm Star Wars prints, only one was in projectable shape and both were far too faded to red to be useful for restoration of the image, it is extremely likely that they all are far too faded now.
Plus 70mm is cropped at the sides, so I don’t think it will be a lot of use for the visual restoration.

Any 70 prints would be Eastman likely and virtually all from that vintage are typically in tatters or so faded they are unprojectable. Additionally the mag tracks can go if not properly stored.

Imagewise, the only benefits would be the finer grain and what if any visual changes were induced through the blowup–albeit those you could tell through heavy fading. The big draw will be the Dolby 70 baby boom in the six track mag stripe. If it could be found, transferred and turned it would become a most powerful ally. 😉
But of course all this would be much easier if we could access the source and do a straight transfer, much like some 70mm mixes that got direct transfers to LD and DVD. Like the earlier Criterion 2001, any magnetic we might be able to work with would likely have some distortion or damage after all these years.

The IB will be the best image overall and the most filmic/organic feeling. The Eastman/LPP will be what you’d have seen in 1977 and what the movie should look like from the processes of the day on general release.

Timing is everything. Team Negative One’s 70mm film scanner is now up and running and we’ve already scanned The Empire Strikes Back 70mm, in 4k*:

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/post/2016/02/04/70mm-Empire-Strikes-Back-in-4k

  • Well, as much as we have of it anyway. If anyone here has a 70mm print of Star Wars you’d like scanned, please let us know! 😃

Holy shit. I certainly wasn’t expecting to see the 70mm cut of Empire any time in the near future. Is there no extent to this community?

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 (Edited)

Robino said:

Lasz said:

Well, the color and contrast look amazing already!

However, I did notice some quite noticeable light streaking on the far right side of the frame almost throughout the entire sample:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1519/23934842693_0112dfce27_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1716/24453343812_0abd9c0e54_o.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1677/24453343692_1b4559e81e_o.jpg

Is this present on the film or did it get introduced in the scanning process?

These artifacts are not part of the film print and were introduced by the acquisition device, in this case a DSLR camera.

It is called “CMOS SMEARING” and it happens on very bright areas of a CMOS captured image.

Some cameras are better than others but in this case it’s pretty bad unfortunately.

I have scanned that same print in higher quality without the smearing, I have offered it to the team to use if they want to clean up their version.

Donations welcome: paypal.me/poit
bitcoin:13QDjXjt7w7BFiQc4Q7wpRGPtYKYchnm8x
Help get The Original Trilogy preserved!

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 (Edited)

Wazzles said:

Williarob said:

captainsolo said:

hairy_hen said:

The 70mm picture quality could potentially be quite nice, though with an aspect ratio of 2.2:1, some image would be missing from the sides.

The soundtrack is quite the most desirable aspect of it, of course. I know there is at least one privately owned 70mm print of the first movie out there, but nobody seems to know who actually owns it. Most likely this person would be unwilling to loan it out for scanning. I’ve never heard anything about whether there are any existing copies of the other two.

poita said:

Re 70mm, I have seen two 70mm Star Wars prints, only one was in projectable shape and both were far too faded to red to be useful for restoration of the image, it is extremely likely that they all are far too faded now.
Plus 70mm is cropped at the sides, so I don’t think it will be a lot of use for the visual restoration.

Any 70 prints would be Eastman likely and virtually all from that vintage are typically in tatters or so faded they are unprojectable. Additionally the mag tracks can go if not properly stored.

Imagewise, the only benefits would be the finer grain and what if any visual changes were induced through the blowup–albeit those you could tell through heavy fading. The big draw will be the Dolby 70 baby boom in the six track mag stripe. If it could be found, transferred and turned it would become a most powerful ally. 😉
But of course all this would be much easier if we could access the source and do a straight transfer, much like some 70mm mixes that got direct transfers to LD and DVD. Like the earlier Criterion 2001, any magnetic we might be able to work with would likely have some distortion or damage after all these years.

The IB will be the best image overall and the most filmic/organic feeling. The Eastman/LPP will be what you’d have seen in 1977 and what the movie should look like from the processes of the day on general release.

Timing is everything. Team Negative One’s 70mm film scanner is now up and running and we’ve already scanned The Empire Strikes Back 70mm, in 4k*:

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/post/2016/02/04/70mm-Empire-Strikes-Back-in-4k

  • Well, as much as we have of it anyway. If anyone here has a 70mm print of Star Wars you’d like scanned, please let us know! 😃

Holy shit. I certainly wasn’t expecting to see the 70mm cut of Empire any time in the near future. Is there no extent to this community?

Yeah, before everyone gets too excited, that is a few seconds of a 70mm ‘pink noise’ sound test strip I sent over a while ago, though it is interesting to see it in motion, there is only those few seconds, not a complete print.

Donations welcome: paypal.me/poit
bitcoin:13QDjXjt7w7BFiQc4Q7wpRGPtYKYchnm8x
Help get The Original Trilogy preserved!

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Is it me or does the 35mm image look slightly sharper?

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poita said:


I have scanned that same print in higher quality without the smearing, I have offered it to the team to use if they want to clean up their version.

And we have accepted. Thanks Poita!

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The007Dossier.com.
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Awesome =)

…I guess that means I’ll have to re-download it at some point…

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A not so long time ago… the highest quality version of the original star wars was the gout and the original prints at all were the holy grail, LET ALONE the 70MM blowups… Now we have 35MM prints of all three films and part of the 70MM empire… We’ve come a looooong way baby

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fevermario said:

A not so long time ago… the highest quality version of the original star wars was the gout and the original prints at all were the holy grail, LET ALONE the 70MM blowups… Now we have 35MM prints of all three films and part of the 70MM empire… We’ve come a looooong way baby

Preach brother, preach!

It’s hard to complain about the releases we’re getting when all we had were laserdiscs and recreations using DVDs and blu-rays. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that we’ve got part of 70mm Empire since it’s only a few seconds but it would be amazing if a complete 70mm print of either or all of the trilogy were to pop up.


**😮ver&out:
**mumbles

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I don’t want to burst anyone’s bubbles but a 70mm print isn’t necessarily going to be better than a 35mm print. Just remember that it has to go through an ADDITIONAL generation to make (and it involves optical blowup rather than contact printing) and it’s cropped from 2.35 to 2.2 and they’ve all faded to red.

Now what we should be celebrating is getting the multi-channel sound from these prints. That’s the one missing piece we don’t have and one that involves a lot of guess work (ie: Hairy_Hen’s surround sound mixes).

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Did ALL 70mm prints have the different ending? No matter what quality, I’d love to see at least that!

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pittrek said:

Did ALL 70mm prints have the different ending? No matter what quality, I’d love to see at least that!

As far as we know. This and the soundtracks are the reason a 70mm print would be so useful.

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 (Edited)

I don’t think 70mm films had to go through an additional generation to make. Why would they? And what would be the point of making 70mm prints in the first place, if they didn’t have better detail?
I’m not saying a 70mm print would be like the holy grail or anything, because the other stuff, like cropping and severe fading are still a big minus, but the detail should be a little better.

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Harmy said:

And what would be the point of making 70mm prints in the first place, if they didn’t have better detail?

Marketing? There is no real good reason to release a film shot on 35mm on 70mm prints as far as I know. Same today with regularly shot films released in IMAX theatres. But the audiences think it’s better and pay more.

“I want to watch Empire on my refrigerator’s LCD screen but listen to the Austrailan audio thru my USB phonograph setup and it worked on the other two movies” -yoda-sama

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Well, I don’t know - I’ve heard people say that they saw the SW movies in both 70mm and 35mm and 70mm was definitely better looking and it would seem to make sense, because even if you went through exactly the same process, except in the last step instead of 35mm film, you used 70mm film, which is undeniably able to hold more detail than 35mm, you should get more detail.
Does anyone know how exactly the 70mm blowups were made? What would make the most sense in terms of quality would be to do the blow-up directly from the ONeg, essentially getting a separate 70mm IP and then copying to 70mm IN and from there to 70mm prints - that would probably get you much much closer to the detail of the ONeg than a 35mm print but somehow I don’t think they did that.

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One reason for creating 70mm blowups is sound! Remember that movies were still using the same sound specifications from the 20s! 70mm mag was a way to get high quality sound in a theater. Dolby helped rectify this in the 70s and 80s but digital sound pretty much killed off the biggest advantage of 70mm conversions.

Now I am actually not sure where down the pipeline a 70mm negative was created (my personal guess would be after an IP…) but it involves projecting a correctly de-anamorphized picture onto the 70mm negative. This process is only as good as the equipment used (lenses, lights, etc). The 35mm prints would have been contact printed so the IP is pressed against the unexposed negative and copied over. This results in a much cleaner picture.

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Also if people remember their 70mm showing being better, it’s probably true: these types of theaters used top of the line projectors and big screens and an awesome sound system. The experience would have been so much better than a dinky one-room theater with a dying bulb and a mono sound system.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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 (Edited)

OK, I’ve done a little research and here’s what I’ve found:

Many viewers, thinking in terms of the fuzzy blow-ups usually obtained in enlarging from 16mm to 35mm, are amazed at the sharpness of the result in print-up from 35mm to 70mm. However, the physical equations involved are vastly different. The Panavision 35mm negative encompasses, with the exception of the sound track strip, the total area of the frame (as opposed to the much smaller “Academy aperture” frame). This means that in anamorphic 35mm photography the negative area used is 63% greater than for normal 1.85 aspect ratio photography, but when enlarged 2 1/4 times in the unsqueezing and enlargement phases during print-up - the final result is projected onto a screen only 25% larger than that which the 35mm print is meant to fill. This, of course, results in a much sharper screen image in proportion to the area of the positive frame - and infinitely greater resolution than is possible in blow-ups from 16mm to 35mm.

A comparison of technical data indicates why any picture shot in Panavision 35 can be successfully printed up, even though such print-up was not considered during filming. The full aspect ratio of Panavision 35 is 2.35, whereas the full aspect ratio of the 70mm print-up is 2.2. The height which is always the critical dimension -is the same, but there is a difference in width of 1.5 over all. Divided by two, with half on one side and half on the other. there is a cut-off on each side of .075 - a loss so infinitesimal that it cannot be noticed by the average viewer. This means that the director, during shooting, need not worry about losing part of his composition in the conversion.

The producer need not decide in advance whether or not he will want a print-up to 70mm at a later date. He simply shoots in Panavision 35, then, after the picture is completed and he has looked at his 35mm answer print, he may find that he has turned out something rather special and that it warrants roadshowing in 70mm-in which case, he calls the laboratory and orders the 70mm prints he needs. This is exactly what happened in the case of M-G-M’s new musical, “The Unsinkable Molly Brown,” which was filmed in Panavision 35 with no thought of a 70mm release, but which turned out so well that print-ups have been ordered for its premiere engagements.

The new process is expected to be a boon to drive-in theater operators, who have always been plagued by the fact that they must wait until quite late in the evening to begin their showings in order that the picture might show up on the screen. Because 70mm projectors use long focal length lenses with extremely wide apertures, a great deal more light reaches the screen (17 foot lamberts as contrasted to the 2 footlamberts produced by 35mm projectors in the average drive-in theater). This enables the drive-in theater owner to present a picture that is as clear and brilliant as any shown in a “hardtop” theater and to start his shows much earlier in the evening without worrying about whether his audience will be able to see the picture. In economic terms, it simply means that he will be able to present two shows each night instead of only one.

There are a few minor drawbacks to the new process. For one thing, the 70mm prints are considerably more expensive than 35mm prints but this is offset by the fact that the 70mm prints, because of the wider film, new projectors and more careful handling in the large format–last infinitely longer than 35mm prints. It is not unusual for one print to be used in daily showings at the same theater for an entire year, after which it is carefully cleaned and sent on for continuing runs in other situations.

Also, while the new Eastman color negative stock is almost grainless, there is a difference in grain between a print-up and a 70mm print made from a 65mm negative - a difference that would only be apparent to the average viewer if the two were projected side by side on a large screen for comparison.

Because the print-up is an optical, rather than a contact printing process, there is some slight build-up in contrast with a corresponding slight loss in tonal range-but here, again, the difference is one that normally is obvious only to film industry technicians. Gottschalk points out that the print-up process is not meant to replace Super Panavision or Ultra Panavision (slight anamorphic squeeze processes), both of which involve photography on 65mm negative and are considered productive of the absolute ultimate in image sharpness and quality.

Source: http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/35-70mm.htm

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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I found this in a forum talking about ET in 70mm. It’s all I’ve found so far for how these blow ups were created:

Regarding the image quality of the blow-ups, keep in mind that there may have been two grades of 70mm prints for “E.T.” The film’s cinematographer, Allen Daviau, ASC, informed me a few years ago when I was pestering him for some info that he believes they struck a few 70mm “show prints” off the original negative, with the balance of the print run (more than 30) utilizing the commonly-used procedure (i.e. 35mm O-Neg --> 35mm Inter-Positive --> 65mm Inter-Negative --> 70mm Release Print).

Source: http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f1/t009055.html

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.