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Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE — Page 14

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 (Edited)

Taolar, I've just had the chance to read through this interesting thread, and your project seems great.

I would really like to see this, but I too am without a Demonoid account.  Any help would be much appreciated, thanks.

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Sorry I haven't been able to rewatch it yet, Taolar.  School, work, and playing music have consumed me of late.  But I'll get around to it, hopefully soon.

Galen

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Thanks for that Taolar.  :)

Looking forward to seeing when I can.

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Im watching your cut right now and reeally enjoying it. You asked for feedback so here are theits i didnt like as much.A lways feel negative to say what you dont like so please take that if i havent commented on something its cause i loved it and thought 90% of it was great ! Also bear in mind its been years since ive seen the original so i going from memory.

* = major points for me

OVERALL
My overall comment is that i wold have preferred more edits of cd1 and some of the other stuff put back in cd2. I also havent had time to read all the pages on this thread yet, im still plowing thru them.

SPECIFICS
- i thought the first half of the movie (cd1) was seemlessly put together, i personally would prefer if it was edited down a bit as it takes quite a long time for us to get to the real main part of the story (zods arrival), not sure what edits u could make. (The flying scene with louis goes on for a while tho, particularly as we get another scene of this later on as they fly after niagra falls). But i just genuinally felt it needs alittle more cutting down to get the flow in line with modern cinema.

* - you can tell you've paused frames for us to read the paper headlines at  the start of cd2 it looks odd (unless this is a glitch on my copy)

- you dont explain how lex luthor finds the north palace. Not sure how u can include it without the prison break tho. As an aside,i never liked how he "magically" picks the crystal telling him about zod, in the original doesnt i take him some more time to find it ?

- i like the jump from the scene with zod et al burning the snake (15.25 on disc 2) with the snake on fire to the fire atniagra falls but it feels a bit inserted there. ie very short scene with no real plot furtherence. shouldnt this be part of when they come out of the water (as original?) ?

* - why do u edit the krypton female arm wrestling the guy in the cafe? it doesnt explain why he gets thrown thru the window. also by editing the scenes there we dont really see zod getting increasingly impatient with weak humans,  he just jumps to get "bored" with humans. It seems to jump too quickly to the army arriving.

* - the gap between superman losinghis powers and wishing to regain them now seems too short, perhaps of rediting could suggest a longer passage of time?

-  at 1:09(cd2) i would go straight from "good morning metropolis" to "just minutes ago" as the guy isnt a great actor nd this make sit seem to flow better in my view.

I LOVE the new ending (removal of time trvael and kiss, set up for the (awful) superman returns).

* Only commentis please "remove the to be conitNued".

I hope u dont mind my suggestions. Its nearly my perfect version of superman ut if u dont agree with some of my comments then i will hapilly live with the nearly perfect version ;)

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discostewart said:

Im watching your cut right now and reeally enjoying it. You asked for feedback so here are theits i didnt like as much.A lways feel negative to say what you dont like so please take that if i havent commented on something its cause i loved it and thought 90% of it was great ! Also bear in mind its been years since ive seen the original so i going from memory.

Cool.  I'm glad you enjoyed it, and am always up for hearing some thoughtful criticism while I'm still hammering down all the nails.

 

SPECIFICS
- i thought the first half of the movie (cd1) was seemlessly put together, i personally would prefer if it was edited down a bit as it takes quite a long time for us to get to the real main part of the story (zods arrival), not sure what edits u could make. (The flying scene with louis goes on for a while tho, particularly as we get another scene of this later on as they fly after niagra falls). But i just genuinally felt it needs alittle more cutting down to get the flow in line with modern cinema.

I hear you.  But this movie is still his only origin movie, and the beginning serves a very specific purpose, and pace.  I've shorted several scenes, including the destruction of Krypton.  The beginning still is at this deliberate pace to contrast the quicker pace of the rest of the movie. 

The flying scene is actually considerably shorter than in the original.  I'm afraid cutting it further will ruin that scene.  There has to be enough time for her to realistically seem to get comfortable with flying, so she can take the risk and then fall.  The time after that fall is about as short as I could manage without it looking chopped up. 

I'm always up for finding ways to shorten the run-time of the film, without taking out anything essential.  Each scene left, especially in the first half, serves a purpose.  Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see what else can be cut without damaging the film.

* - you can tell you've paused frames for us to read the paper headlines at  the start of cd2 it looks odd (unless this is a glitch on my copy)

Actually, that's an unfinished FX scene.  I just put in temp photoshoped stills of how  I want the newspaper to read.  Making it move is probably the toughest FX shot I have left to do.

 

- you dont explain how lex luthor finds the north palace. Not sure how u can include it without the prison break tho.

Yeah, this is probably the biggest plot hole that I've created (even though it corrects even bigger plot holes).  I've tried using dialog over their snowmobile trip to explain how he knows where to find the fortress, but none of it works. 

But considering how Lex already seems to come up with knowledge out of thin air (like how does he know Kryptonite will hurt Superman?  How does he know that meteorite that had fallen was Kryptonite?  How does he know Superman can hear the higher frequencies, etc...), this really isn't that big of a plot hole.  At least that's how I justify it to myself.  :)

But if you have an idea of a solution, I'm up for hearing it (as long as it doesn't involve putting the prison scenes back in.)

 

As an aside,i never liked how he "magically" picks the crystal telling him about zod, in the original doesnt i take him some more time to find it ?

Yeah, in the original he tried one more crystal.  But I think that scene is unnecessary. 

Superman has no trouble operating it for the first time, apparently because the crystal subconsciously guided him to that.  And at the end Lex gains, out of thin air, the knowledge of how to operate the molecule chamber.

In this scene Lex asks for Ms. T to hand him a specific crystal, which turns out to be the one about Zod.  It's as if he knew what he wanted somehow.

My rationalilzation is that this Kryptonian technology is so highly advanced that the user interface has reached a state of perfection.  Maybe the sound the crystals make is them communicating with whomever is using it, subconsciously instructing him how to get what he's want.

 

- i like the jump from the scene with zod et al burning the snake (15.25 on disc 2) with the snake on fire to the fire atniagra falls but it feels a bit inserted there. ie very short scene with no real plot furtherence. shouldnt this be part of when they come out of the water (as original?) ?

Actually the scenes weren't connected in the original either.  But I will look into merging them because I agree that both are too short as it is.

 

* - why do u edit the krypton female arm wrestling the guy in the cafe? it doesnt explain why he gets thrown thru the window. also by editing the scenes there we dont really see zod getting increasingly impatient with weak humans,  he just jumps to get "bored" with humans. It seems to jump too quickly to the army arriving.

I edited them out for a few reasons: 1) the acting in that scene is horrible.  The hicks really ham it up, and it just doesn't fit in with the rest of the edit, 2) the way it was shot wasn't very cinematic, 3) they threaten to attack Ursa  first, thus giving Zod justification for the throw, making the viewer sympathetic to them, when it's not necessary.  This scene takes place soon after the moon scene, where they killed everyone for no reason.  So them out of nowhere, throwing this guy through the wall isn't out of character.

I agree that my solution is a bit sudden and so not perfect. But I haven't come with a better one.  Please give the original scene a watch and let me know if you have any suggestions on how to fix it: http://www.heathenofeden.com/zoddinersceneorigDIVX.avi

 

* - the gap between superman losinghis powers and wishing to regain them now seems too short, perhaps of rediting could suggest a longer passage of time?

Acctually, you'll be surprised to know that in the original Superman 2 there are 8 minutes 47 seconds between the scene where he loses his power and the scene where he's hiking back to the fortress to regain everything.  In my version the time between is 11 minutes and 27 seconds.

 

-  at 1:09(cd2) i would go straight from "good morning metropolis" to "just minutes ago" as the guy isnt a great actor nd this make sit seem to flow better in my view.

I'll give it another watch.

I LOVE the new ending (removal of time trvael and kiss, set up for the (awful) superman returns).

* Only commentis please "remove the to be conitNued".

Someone else mentioned that too, and I was against it.  But after watching it over the weekend, I've come to the same conclusion.  There's no need for it.  It's out.

I hope u dont mind my suggestions. Its nearly my perfect version of superman ut if u dont agree with some of my comments then i will hapilly live with the nearly perfect version ;)

Thanks for the input.  it's why I released this copy.  It is very much appreciated.

 

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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Hey Everybody,

This weekend I did my final test screening of SoJ to an audeince of ten on a huge projection screen.  The audience was comprised of people who aren't editors, nor fanedit fans, and mostly people who hadn't seen the original Superman in many years.  It was a success, with only two issues being pointed out after the show, both of which I already planned to fix.

Seeing it on a huge screen was a lot of fun, and the vast majority of my FX shots stood up to basically being zoomed in on, so I was surprised and happy. I did notice some new issues that no one has raised though, and will put them on my list of fixes.  Also I had some ideas for some easy improvements that I hadn't thought of before.

For those editors that have the chance, I highly recommend doing a test screening of your edit, especially on as big a screen as you can.  Seeing it on a huge screen, and through the eyes of people who are just viewers, and not interested in the editing process, gave me a different perspective on mine, and I think the final product will be improved because of it.

-T

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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Glad to hear this went well for you!

“First feel fear, then get angry. Then go with your life into the fight.” - Bill Mollison

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Was your test screening of the released pre release so to speak or had you further tweaked it again for your screening?

Have you got a defo list of changes you are now doing after hearing everyones thoughts?

Very much looking forward to the final edit.

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It was supposed to be the latest version, but I wasn't able to render it in time.  Not a big deal though, since there aren't that many differences so far.  So I showed the same one that I released in December.

I do have a list of changes that I'm want to do, but I'm going to keep most of them a surprise.  :)

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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- you dont explain how lex luthor finds the north palace. Not sure how u can include it without the prison break tho.

Yeah, this is probably the biggest plot hole that I've created (even though it corrects even bigger plot holes).  I've tried using dialog over their snowmobile trip to explain how he knows where to find the fortress, but none of it works. 

But considering how Lex already seems to come up with knowledge out of thin air (like how does he know Kryptonite will hurt Superman?  How does he know that meteorite that had fallen was Kryptonite?  How does he know Superman can hear the higher frequencies, etc...), this really isn't that big of a plot hole.  At least that's how I justify it to myself.  :)

But if you have an idea of a solution, I'm up for hearing it (as long as it doesn't involve putting the prison scenes back in.)

Stewart says: Its tricky but i personally would put a very short version of the prison escape in. I know i know ! But wwait ! ;) I think ive worked out how to do it with minimal cheesy bits.  You have fixed so many plot holes that to leave one large one in wouldnt justify what great work u have done. A very shortened version of the prsion scene would make sense because

- a) it would provide how he finds supermans home.

  b) it wouldnt flow well if luthor escaped after the missile without justice.

  c) we dont find out what happens to Otis.

 d) at no point , other than the prison scene, does anyone mention superman flying"north"

Here is my suggestion:

SCENE ONE
- reinsert: newspaper shot of luthor jailed (not a necessary scene,  if u r using that footage elsewhere, but good for continuity).

- cut to black box scene. start at "it was a good plan mr luthor..." taking out a lot of the comedy can be achieved through quick editing, and infact could be quite dark. for example cutting just after " i will track superman with alpha waves..." its quite menacing. 

                then go to different scenes of movie. Then return:

SCENE TWO
- add the "the lights out" hologram scene (i always liked this scene as it shows luthor as an inventor which backs up the black box scene), after the guard waves his hand in front of the hologram...
- cut straight to miss tessmarker saying "come up" and let that scene play out. By doing that we establish the hot air balloon (means of escape) and that luthor is in it and that otis gets left behind. Its a bit bafoon like with Otis falling off ladder but a suitable end to his character and NOW a very short scene ;) 

Please consider it , as i really thought it would just fix that one thing that sticks out with your flwaless edit.

* - why do u edit the krypton female arm wrestling the guy in the cafe? it doesnt explain why he gets thrown thru the window. also by editing the scenes there we dont really see zod getting increasingly impatient with weak humans,  he just jumps to get "bored" with humans. It seems to jump too quickly to the army arriving.

I edited them out for a few reasons: 1) the acting in that scene is horrible.  The hicks really ham it up, and it just doesn't fit in with the rest of the edit, 2) the way it was shot wasn't very cinematic, 3) they threaten to attack Ursa  first, thus giving Zod justification for the throw, making the viewer sympathetic to them, when it's not necessary.  This scene takes place soon after the moon scene, where they killed everyone for no reason.  So them out of nowhere, throwing this guy through the wall isn't out of character.

I agree that my solution is a bit sudden and so not perfect. But I haven't come with a better one.  Please give the original scene a watch and let me know if you have any suggestions on how to fix it: http://www.heathenofeden.com/zoddinersceneorigDIVX.avi

 STEWART SAYS: Actually on rewatching it does work, he just thinks their arm wrestle is pathetic. One thing i noticed is the sound cut is a bit abrupt on the window throw scene though ;) Thats probably what made it stick out first time round. Also i would take just a short segment of the town street scene and put it before the arm wrestle scene as its just a usual editing tactic to have an establishing shot (ie ok, now we are in a small town). So, you could:

SCENE SUGGESTION
- take the outside scene of people walking (from before the window smashes in your cut), place that first

- cut to zod walking into cafe and looking at arm cafe wrestle

- cut to window being smashed

side note: I did think about reinserting the "cop car scene", most of the schtick can be taken out of it with clever editing (the chessy lines and hand blowing could be removed). This would:

- make it more obvious that the army would be called if they had taken on the police and the scene plots zod's increaing irritation with people thinking they are strong (policemen, arm wrestler) when they are weak to him.

- establish zods lack of respect for authority.

- make the guy being thrown through the window "the final straw", as the moment it seems like quite a large reaction > guy through window = tanks 

* - the gap between superman losinghis powers and wishing to regain them now seems too short, perhaps of rediting could suggest a longer passage of time?

Acctually, you'll be surprised to know that in the original Superman 2 there are 8 minutes 47 seconds between the scene where he loses his power and the scene where he's hiking back to the fortress to regain everything.  In my version the time between is 11 minutes and 27 seconds.

 STEWART SAYS: True, yet as you repairing the scripting issues from the original, is there is any other non-time dependent scene (ie a scene that can easily be moved forward, that isnt linear to the story), to "suggest" more time has passed. 

 

-  at 1:09(cd2) i would go straight from "good morning metropolis" to "just minutes ago" as the guy isnt a great actor and this makes it seem to flow better in my view.

I'll give it another watch.

STEWART SAYS: the original newscaster line is overdubbed as we see Kent in his room, before we cut to the tv screen so it should be easy to do, and it wouldmake the scene better i feel. Once again I love your new ending and cant wait to see how u could repair the travesty that is SUPERMAN RETURNS

FINAL IDEAS:

I know if u do my ideas, ive lengthened the film, but mostly in areas where the flow is already good, and only with very shoert scenes. i hope im helping and not being annoying, i did do editing at media college but a looooooong time ago. :)

- the bit where superman tries to hug his dad i dont think translates well, ilike the intention but it just looks odd. Could u cut after "my son" somwehere?

- if u wanted to lose a scene from part 1 the whole Luthor swimming scene could be removed (sound editing permitting), as it doesnt further any plot really. So u go straight from the ice palace "my son"scene to "look ma no wires".

- One other thing, in the ice palace, i would consider reinserting the other crystal being tried first, as it just gets rid of that niggle of him choosing the right one first, plus it gives an indication that he learns other stuff while there "son of jorel " etc.n Just seemed a harsh edit for me.

I hope some of this is useful, i loving the edit and desperately wanna own the dvd ;) when you releasing the final file ?

 

 

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discostewart said:

Stewart says: Its tricky but i personally would put a very short version of the prison escape in.

Actually, I don't have a problem with most of the prison scenes (apart from the escape by hot air balloon, which could never be successful), if these were two separate movies.

In my version only night passes between the two parts.  It just can't make sense that Lex would have enough time to plan an escape, invent that black box, etc.

STEWART SAYS: Actually on rewatching it does work, he just thinks their arm wrestle is pathetic. One thing i noticed is the sound cut is a bit abrupt on the window throw scene though ;) Thats probably what made it stick out first time round. Also i would take just a short segment of the town street scene and put it before the arm wrestle scene as its just a usual editing tactic to have an establishing shot (ie ok, now we are in a small town).

Yes, I agree that an establishing shot would make the scene work better.  I'm going to try a couple things.  Thanks for your suggestions.

 

side note: I did think about reinserting the "cop car scene", most of the schtick can be taken out of it with clever editing (the chessy lines and hand blowing could be removed). This would:

Ugh... that really is an awful scene.  I understand your points.  I just don't see it fitting into my edit at all.

 STEWART SAYS: True, yet as you repairing the scripting issues from the original, is there is any other non-time dependent scene (ie a scene that can easily be moved forward, that isnt linear to the story), to "suggest" more time has passed. 

I hear you.  I'll take a look at it.

FINAL IDEAS:

I know if u do my ideas, ive lengthened the film, but mostly in areas where the flow is already good, and only with very shoert scenes. i hope im helping and not being annoying, i did do editing at media college but a looooooong time ago. :)

Not annoying at all.  I appreciate the input.  :)

- the bit where superman tries to hug his dad i dont think translates well, ilike the intention but it just looks odd. Could u cut after "my son" somwehere?

Yeah, it is a little odd, and has been edited a bit already to make it feel a bit more natural.  But I like it because its one of the only scenes that shows his affection for his father, and it also shows Kalel's loneliness, his inability to have any physical contact with the only person who he can really tell his secrets to.  Which makes his giving up Jorel for Lois Lane more meaningful.

- if u wanted to lose a scene from part 1 the whole Luthor swimming scene could be removed (sound editing permitting), as it doesnt further any plot really. So u go straight from the ice palace "my son"scene to "look ma no wires".

Well the scene serves a couple purposes for me.  I edited so Ms. T shows some defiance, and that she's becoming fascinated with Superman, both of which I need to do to make her changed motive for free-ing superman realistic.  It also has the news reporter, which if I didn't use, it would make my use of a news reporter at the end even more out of place.  On a minor note, it shows that Lex is wearing wigs, which explains why his hair style changes every scene.  It also sets up a little mystery of what his "crime of the century" is.

- One other thing, in the ice palace, i would consider reinserting the other crystal being tried first, as it just gets rid of that niggle of him choosing the right one first, plus it gives an indication that he learns other stuff while there "son of jorel " etc.n Just seemed a harsh edit for me.

Ok, I'll take another look at it.  Although, since we no longer see him leaving, it can be assumed that he plays with the controls all day, and learns all sorts of things off camera.

I hope some of this is useful, i loving the edit and desperately wanna own the dvd ;) when you releasing the final file ?

Sometime this year, after I get my ass in gear.  :)

Thanks for the input!

 

 

 

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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discostewart said:

Stewart says: Its tricky but i personally would put a very short version of the prison escape in.

Actually, I don't have a problem with most of the prison scenes (apart from the escape by hot air balloon, which could never be successful), if these were two separate movies.

In my version only night passes between the two parts.  It just can't make sense that Lex would have enough time to plan an escape, invent that black box, etc.

 

STEWART SAYS: Fair point, im just racking my brain how to fix this one issue cause i think every plothole can be dismissed or explained away but this one bugs me hehe. What about your idea of the audio overdub? you could take the line: "where does superman always fly?" from the prison scene and then cut to" north miss tessmarker, north". Not sure if it can be lifted though if background effects or music are in the way. U dont really need the black box just the idea that luthor has observed superman always flies one way.

Other than that im stuck hehe ;)

One cool idea might be a cgi paper (there are some in the streets scens if i rememeber that could say something like"LUTHOR AT LARGE" or "CRIMINAL MASTERMIND ON THE RUN"

 

 

p.s. please get your ass into gear i want to show people your cut, but not till its done.

 

 

 

 

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discostewart said:

Fair point, im just racking my brain how to fix this one issue cause i think every plothole can be dismissed or explained away but this one bugs me hehe. What about your idea of the audio overdub? you could take the line: "where does superman always fly?"

Unfortunately that line doesn't exist.  Otis says "he always flys off" and all Lex says is "Where?"

I will keep working on in though.  It bugs me too.

One cool idea might be a cgi paper (there are some in the streets scens if i rememeber that could say something like"LUTHOR AT LARGE" or "CRIMINAL MASTERMIND ON THE RUN"

Did you actually watch my edit?  :)  10 seconds into part 2:

Perry White Newspaper

 

Its going to be cleaned up and animated for the final release.

 

p.s. please get your ass into gear i want to show people your cut, but not till its done.

Ok.  :)

 

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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AH! I was concentrating on writing my notes for you and missed the story on the right of the paper. Actually that gave me an idea...

Where you have done the cgi on cd2,

headline could read: MASTER CRIMINAL ON THE LOOSE AS HERO FLIES NORTH, (Lois would have to lose her name but Perry says it...)

or could the henchman escaped story be maginilised and WHY DOES SUPERMAN ALWAYS FLY NORTH become a story.

This would be good because we have established lex is tracking local paper reports earlier with the kryptonite scene. 

or

is there another paper that could be reinserted to do this? (in  luthors apartment or something.

Sorry i dont have the original film to look through and check lines, scenes etc.

 lol i give up ! ;)

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its taking its sweet time torrenting  (0.2 KiB/S 1 seed in 2 peers)  but, I'm looking forward to it!

Bingowings said: Do you want to see the project finished as a playable film or a flick book?

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Got it but I cant watch it

 

is there anyway to convert from avi to mPeg4 for free? (osx.5) 

Bingowings said: Do you want to see the project finished as a playable film or a flick book?

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I have VLC but I cant watch it at work I need to put it on my iphone to have any chance of watching it

Bingowings said: Do you want to see the project finished as a playable film or a flick book?

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Hi Taolar how are things coming with the project since the initial pre release 4 months ago, have you managed to resolve any of the niggles you were going to work on, I was so blown away by the pre release would love to know what you've tickered with or changed on the way to your final cut???

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lorang said:

Hi Taolar how are things coming with the project since the initial pre release 4 months ago, have you managed to resolve any of the niggles you were going to work on, I was so blown away by the pre release would love to know what you've tickered with or changed on the way to your final cut???

Hey Lorang.  Yeah, I'm tinkering here and there.  Things are going slow though, and nothing's been crossed off the list.  Winter is a rough time of year with the business, and I'm just now starting to get time to work on this.  Actually, I should have most of the weekend to myself.  And now that I have my HDDVD drive back, I'll be able to do some FX stuff.  So maybe that list will get smaller.  :)

 

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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I'm really excited about this project, because I too remember Superman ans to a lesser extent Superman 2 being much more exciting when I was a child but uppon rewatching as an adult find them far slower and much less exciting. This project if the perfect recreation of what we allremember the Christopher Reeve Superman movies and I honesty can't wait to see it completed.

This brings me to my next point can someone please seed this on Demonoid so I can watch it and take part in this amazing edit.

Thanks,

~Tons

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First of all fantastic work so far Taolar. I really look forward to seeing the final edit. Anyways there is one thing that has always bothered me on the first Superman that is still there on the workprint cut. The Kryptonite rock around Supes after Miss Tessmarker saves him from drowning is no longer green. Is there any chance that could be fixed by putting the green back in the rock by any chance?

Brian The Demolition Man Little
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Hi Taolar hows things coming along with this its been 2 months since any word! Really looking forward to your finished product as I believe it will be the definitive Supes Fan Edit that will be out there.