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Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE — Page 12

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Doctor M said:

I'd say so far I can't see 90% of the changes (though as many times as I've seen the Supe films before, I don't have it well memorized).  I do notice the pace to be MUCH tighter, and that's a real mercy.

Excellent!

I hear what is likely sweetened sound fx in the destruction of Krypton (and found it pleasing.)  I wouldn't mind hearing those large panes of glass break (that fall when Clark's ship crashes through the ceiling).  The sound is conspicuous in its absence.

I'm surprised I didn't notice that.  ll check that out.  Thanks.

I have seen a bunch of white break ups (some in the letterbox bars some in the picture itself).  I hope that's a problem being worked on.

Yeah, this isn't in Premiere, but randomly happens during render.  It's incredibly frustrating, and will obviously be fixed for the DVD.  But I didn't think it was often enough to ruin this preview.

Thanks for your input, as always.  :)

-T

 

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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 (Edited)

I'm stupidly awake really really late, and I just finished watching Part I.

One of the biggest things that bothered was right at the end: the escape from the Phantom Zone.

Here is a quick and dirty fix for you to consider. Really all I did was bleed the black so Zod and the gang aren't wearing light-up gray clothing.

The scene IS darker, but it's in SPACE so I think it works. It'd work better balanced on a per scene basis (I just raised the black by 10 using the Levels filter for the entire clip). Some segments could use more, some less.

http://www.mediafire.com/?gtymynjynjy

 

Dr. M

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The sound concerns are because Taolar used the Extended version as a base, which had ALL sound effects re-recorded in the late '90s or early '00s.  The original mix IMO is much, much better, and is available on the new DVD's theatrical cut (if you have the more recent pressing, there was a mistake in the first pressing that meant it was really a 2.0 downmix of the 5.1 remaster).

a trolling bantha

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The new audio IS very modern sounding in dynamic range and sharpness.  I don't hate it, some is a bit over the top and artificial, but it has a bit more bite.  I just figured that Taolar sweetening it.

Also, and maybe it was the speakers I was listening on (which do have their bad days), but I found myself turning the volume up pretty high for some scenes and down for other.  Just me?

I'll drop 2 other concerns from Part I while I'm thinking of it:

When Clarke jumps out the Daily Planet window and his clothes fade change into Superman's as he falls... what power is that exactly?  I hate to request an effects shot but any chance of adding some fast-motion-like blurring limbs or rapid spinning as he falls so it looks like he might ACTUALLY be changing clothes not just willing them to transform?

What was with Otis' black eye?  We lost the explanation for that (cough or I got distracted cough).  (I don't remember what it was originally.)  Can it be added back (or (heh heh) the removed)?  I suppose it can be shrugged off that the guy's an idiot and he just got his in trouble somewhere.

Dr. M

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Doctor M said:

When Clarke jumps out the Daily Planet window and his clothes fade change into Superman's as he falls... what power is that exactly?  I hate to request an effects shot but any chance of adding some fast-motion-like blurring limbs or rapid spinning as he falls so it looks like he might ACTUALLY be changing clothes not just willing them to transform?

I imagined he was just doing it so quickly that you didn't see his arms.  But I'll think about it, and if I can come up with a way that looks good, I'll give it a try.

What was with Otis' black eye?  We lost the explanation for that (cough or I got distracted cough).  (I don't remember what it was originally.)  Can it be added back (or (heh heh) the removed)?  I suppose it can be shrugged off that the guy's an idiot and he just got his in trouble somewhere.

Please read my to-do list  on the first post.  Specifically:

6. Remove Otis black eye (0% done)

abd 4. Re-work escape from Phantom Zone (20% done)

I appreciate people pointing out flaws, but please check this list before posting about them.  Hope these things didn't detract too much from the rest of the movie.  :)

-T

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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ChainsawAsh said:

The sound concerns are because Taolar used the Extended version as a base, which had ALL sound effects re-recorded in the late '90s or early '00s.  The original mix IMO is much, much better, and is available on the new DVD's theatrical cut (if you have the more recent pressing, there was a mistake in the first pressing that meant it was really a 2.0 downmix of the 5.1 remaster).

 

Mine is the downmixed 2.0.  I'll try to get my hands on the original and check it out.  Thanks!

-T

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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Sorry, didn't even notice that there WAS a to do list.

The Phantom Zone comment wasn't a complaint, I saw the post where you were talking about fixing it.

I was just curious if you liked my lo-tech idea for a fix.

Dr. M

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Sorry, i didn't check out your footage at first.  I was just intending to completely re-matte that scene anyway.  But I just checked it out, and bumping up the blacks does help.  I still hate the matting of the earth and moon though.  I'm going to completely composite that scene.  :)

Did you watch the last half?

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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Taolar said:

...I still hate the matting of the earth and moon though. I'm going to completely composite that scene. :)

Did you watch the last half?

Only because you are so crazy is this so good.

And no, I have yet to watch part two.  I've spent most of today finishing two PAL2NTSC projects, tweaking a 3rd and I'm currently starting a VHSRip/Preservation (using a new capture method (for me anyway)).

I will be watching it tonight though.

Dr. M

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 (Edited)

Ok, I don't want to be any more critical about this edit, because I'm starting to be misunderstood.  I'm (hopefully) being constructive so the final version will have all problems ironed out.

The important part here is, having now seen this in it's entirety, I LOVE IT.

This is the most watchable I have found these movies in the past 15 years.  I already have shelf space reserved for the final release.  So take any further comments as merely my attempts to help make this the most perfect fan edit ever.

I have seen so many cuts of these two films (fan edits, restorations, official, etc.) that, for the most part, I can't keep track of what changes Taolar has actually made.  BUT, since they are so seamless, it's disturbing knowing they are there and not being able to spot them.

What I do know is the experience was tightly paced, and a pleasure to watch.

The few things I noticed in part 2 (part 1 comments are spread out in my posts above):

When the bus hits Supe @ 54:27 between frames #783641 & 783642 it looks like a few frames are missing.  It skips slightly.

Following that when the back window of the bus is broken out: the audio is slightly out of sync making it feel artificial.

I like Superman being thrown into the Statue of Liberty's torch from an action stand point.  Mind you, I was not aware that it was moved from New York to Metropolis? ;-)  I don't know if it should be changed or not.  It seems wrong.

I know it probably wouldn't work, but is there anyway to make it so Lex watches the holo of the 3 Kryptonian villians AFTER they arrive and make news?  It would improve the story.  Otherwise it's him randomly stumbling across the information just BEFORE they show up.  That's a serious coincidence.

Taolar: I really liked what you did with the new ending.  Everyone is getting on with their lives while the story continues to unfold.  Superman leaving has the double explanation of a relationship that didn't work out and a home to revisit.

While your delivery occasionally had the flavor of Michael Palin in a Flying Circus sketch (when you mugged the camera).  I probably wouldn't change it.

It would be nice however to see you make a few MORE cameos earlier in the movie in order to established your newscaster character.  Then when you deliver the prologue at the end, the audience is more comfortable with your appearance.

Finally: Lois just got dumped by Superman!  For cryin' out loud, no man you date after that will ever measure up.  I absolutely expected when we saw her typing at the end, to see the title "Why The World Doesn't Need Superman".

It would have shown that she had some real emotional attachment and was upset by the way things ended.  Sort of her working through her emotions in the way she know best.

Also, it would have been frickin' awesome! xD

Cheers on a  really really really great edit.
(Can I get an amen to Lois' story title?)

Dr. M

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Doctor M said:

Ok, I don't want to be any more critical about this edit, because I'm starting to be misunderstood.  I'm (hopefully) being constructive so the final version will have all problems ironed out.

 

I think I understand where you are coming from.  Maybe I came across as a bit annoyed when you mentioned the two things that I already had listed, but I didn't mean to.  I'm taking each of your comments as constructive, and am actually right now rendering some new Xvids based on your sizing recommendations. (although instead of shrinking 2 pixels vertically, I'm just cutting one line from the top and one from the bottom, to avoid unnecessary resampling.)

The important part here is, having now seen this in it's entirety, I LOVE IT.

Excellent!!

This is the most watchable I have found these movies in the past 15 years.  I already have shelf space reserved for the final release.  So take any further comments as merely my attempts to help make this the most perfect fan edit ever.

I have seen so many cuts of these two films (fan edits, restorations, official, etc.) that, for the most part, I can't keep track of what changes Taolar has actually made.  BUT, since they are so seamless, it's disturbing knowing they are there and not being able to spot them.

That's great to read!  And it's part of the reason I didn't want to release a list of all the changes.  I wanted people to give it a chance from beginning to end, and see if they noticed what was done.  I'm very happy to hear that most of it isn't apparent.  I will probably make a commentary track for the DVD that goes over everything, but still hope people watch the entire movie first.

What I do know is the experience was tightly paced, and a pleasure to watch.

The few things I noticed in part 2 (part 1 comments are spread out in my posts above):

When the bus hits Supe @ 54:27 between frames #783641 & 783642 it looks like a few frames are missing.  It skips slightly.

Didn't notice this, but will check it out and fix.  Thanks.

Following that when the back window of the bus is broken out: the audio is slightly out of sync making it feel artificial.

Didn't notice that either.  Thanks.

I like Superman being thrown into the Statue of Liberty's torch from an action stand point.  Mind you, I was not aware that it was moved from New York to Metropolis? ;-)  I don't know if it should be changed or not.  It seems wrong.

I had a debate in my head about this scene.  Not specifically that Metropolis and New York aren't the same city, because in my mind they are (and remember he takes Lois on a sightseeing flight in the first movie where the statue is there).  But I just wasn't sure that the sequence works.  It might be cuttable, but I use it as sort of a segue to the sequence where Non is knocked into the tower (which itself leads to Zod realizing that Sup's weakness is his care for humans).  In the end I decided taking it out ruins the pacing.  I'm willing to take another look at it before the DVD though.

I know it probably wouldn't work, but is there anyway to make it so Lex watches the holo of the 3 Kryptonian villians AFTER they arrive and make news?  It would improve the story.  Otherwise it's him randomly stumbling across the information just BEFORE they show up.  That's a serious coincidence.

That won't work because when the villians make news, Sup and Lois are at the fortress and don't leave until after the crystal controls self destruct.  I hear what you're saying though.  I'd also considered entirely removing the Lex at the fotress scene, but at the end when Zod has him run the controls it wouldn't make sense (or at least, would make less sense than it already does!)

Taolar: I really liked what you did with the new ending.  Everyone is getting on with their lives while the story continues to unfold.  Superman leaving has the double explanation of a relationship that didn't work out and a home to revisit.

Cool.  I'm glad to hear that you liked it.  My biggest fear was that it seemed rushed or that his decision came out of nowhere.

While your delivery occasionally had the flavor of Michael Palin in a Flying Circus sketch (when you mugged the camera).  I probably wouldn't change it.

First let me clarify that the TV news reporter is not me.  What I meant in an earlier post was that I did the new voice for Donner's cameo.  The news reporter is a friend of mine, who will be properly credited on the DVD, and we did about two dozen takes.  Some laying the sarcasm on thick, some not so much, some over the top, some subtle.  I chose the most natural take, which was somewhere in between.

Although I love Michael Palin, my intention was to come close to the delivery of the newscaster that Ms T was listing to early in part 1, not to be comedic.  I have two other takes that I really like which I'll consider before the DVD release.

It would be nice however to see you make a few MORE cameos earlier in the movie in order to established your newscaster character.  Then when you deliver the prologue at the end, the audience is more comfortable with your appearance.

I'll think about that one. I hear ya.

Finally: Lois just got dumped by Superman!  For cryin' out loud, no man you date after that will ever measure up.  I absolutely expected when we saw her typing at the end, to see the title "Why The World Doesn't Need Superman".

It would have shown that she had some real emotional attachment and was upset by the way things ended.  Sort of her working through her emotions in the way she know best.

Also, it would have been frickin' awesome! xD

Funny you should mention that.  For a good six months I was planning on changing the text exactly like you suggest.  A couple things made me somewhat reluctantly change my mind.  One was that in Superman Returns the impression is given that she wrote that article well after Superman had gone missing, as almost a way to console humanity and herself.  Second, I decided Lois wouldn't turn spiteful so quickly.  She wasn't dumped in the traditional sense.  I mean it's not like he told her he would rather date Lana Lang.  She understands why they can't be together.  I think at this point, she would write the article about how "Superman Saves Humanity..." as her way of moving on, by putting herself in the position of objective reporter, despite still feeling the love.  And I think it makes a good counterpoint for when it's reveiled in Returns that she wrote the negative article.  It shows how much her feelings have changed between the two movies and how much him leaving affects the world.

But, like I said, it was a reluctant decision.  I love the idea.

Cheers on a  really really really great edit.
(Can I get an amen to Lois' story title?)

Thanks a bunch Dr. M.  You've been a supporter for a long time, and I'm glad you liked it (and that you felt you could be critical at the same time).  It's all very much appreciated!

The new render should be done soon and reposted.

-T

 

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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I figured that if Lois was starting an article titled "Why the World Doesn't Need Superman", it would just be a draft.  Sort of a dear diary.

But once it becomes apparent Supe is missing, she maybe expands on it, and makes it available for publication.

Perhaps adding the line "First Draft of", "Notes For", or heck "Dear Diary, Why the World Doesn't Need Superman". 
Just thinking out loud now.

Dr. M

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10.I it possible to add a couple of neck break sounds in the White House attack when Ursa kicks and karate chops a couple of the guards, her actions look very lightly a bone break sound may make it look more edgy.

Sure!  That's a great idea!

_____________________

Thought I'd have a bit of fun and try and do a rough cut of this sequence and make it a little more tough, hopefully the changes are not to in your face.

I have added extra blast noises to the explosions with the rocket lauchers.

Added 2 blood sqibs to the two guards who Zod shoots.

Added a little rubble and fire when Non walks to the 2 soldiers.

Added extra fire when the rocket launcher hits the ceiling.

Trimed by a couple of frames the body guard being thrown through the wall, got rid of the bouncy wall.

Added a blood sqib to the guard on the floor that Ersa kicks in the face followed by a bone break, also trimmed his hiding on the floor by a few frames.

Added a more powerful wack by Ersa to the final guard.

Like mentioned its all pretty rough just to show that it can be a bit more violent and show the villans as bad ass villians.

Oooh the clip is Mpeg and Pal encoded. 

http://rapidshare.com/files/177485278/Final_matte_.mpg

 

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I've got a copy of this down (the original pre-release preview) so will watch it through soon and make comments. I have watched a bit of it (about half of the first half) and so far it looks very seamless in terms of changes. There does appear to be a pacing change and the colours look a little different but I'm sure I'll work out more stuff as I go along.
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The XVID files have been resized and re-encoded.  The pixel aspect ratio is now 1:1 with no letterboxing.  The display ratio will be 16:9.  It should look correct no matter what you play it on... I hope!

Check it out on Demonoid.  Or if you prefer Rapidshare, you could probably find a link on Linktalk.

-T

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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Doctor M said:

I figured that if Lois was starting an article titled "Why the World Doesn't Need Superman", it would just be a draft.  Sort of a dear diary.

But once it becomes apparent Supe is missing, she maybe expands on it, and makes it available for publication.

Perhaps adding the line "First Draft of", "Notes For", or heck "Dear Diary, Why the World Doesn't Need Superman". 
Just thinking out loud now.

At the least I'll put it out as a deleted scene, and anyone who wants to add it back in with Womble can.  :)

 

lorang said:

http://rapidshare.com/files/177485278/Final_matte_.mpg

Hey that turned out pretty good!

astromech said: There does appear to be a pacing change and the colours look a little different but I'm sure I'll work out more stuff as I go along.

I actually haven't done any real color correcting yet, except in some scenes where I switch back and forth between S2 and Donner Cut scenes.  Please let me know what you think when you've seen the whole thing. 

Doctor M said:

Also, and maybe it was the speakers I was listening on (which do have their bad days), but I found myself turning the volume up pretty high for some scenes and down for other.  Just me?

I probably need to manually normalize the soundtrack. I thought it was right, but for the final edit, I'll go through the whole movie watching the output levels.  Thanks.

-T

 

 

 

 

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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Um, don't be in a hurry with the sound.

Turns out I AM having problem with the speakers I was listening on.

Get corroboration first. :)

Dr. M

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 (Edited)

will definitely give a fuller review once I've finished but these are some comments I'll make for now:

- As with Doctor M, I found the sound to be a little 'up and down' in places. Quite down in the quiet scenes followed by a mega blast in the more lively scenes.

- Otis' blackeye needs to be explained out unless he's a constant klutz...I notice his attempt at changing the codes on the missile is now missing which removes Luthor's punishment of Otis. Any chance of airbrushing it out perhaps?

- I still have a slight problem with young Clark's race against the train - I'm figuring it's to do with the undercranked nature of that scene when originally shot, but it just looks sped up now.

- Is there any way of matching SII's Brando footage with the footage in SI? He's kinda see through in the first movie but colour in the second. I do accept it would be quite hard to do though seeing as that's the footage restored for the Donner Cut.

Pretty good otherwise so far (have only watched the first part). Pacing, to me, is definitely different, some scenes now run quicker, but will let you know more as I get through the second part of the movie. Good work though...the edit's you've made are pretty seamless...no jarring or noticeable steps.

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 (Edited)

Hi Taolar, I just watched your SOJ edit and I am very very impressed :) Overall, fantastic work, this is the best cut of Superman I and II I have seen yet, you have really utilised the various pieces of Superman II in a really coherent way to extend the first film and make it flow as it originally should have.

Overall, I can see that a few parts (especially in the second half) are a little rough and am confident you will go over everything with a fine toothed comb and make things as perfect as possible before the final release, so I won't go over minor quibbles like these. The main points I wanted to mention are as follows, to give some suggestions and constructive criticisms:

 

As has been mentioned by lorang, the scene where Lex is explaining the missile launch plan to Superman while stood on the big map in his lair is rather rough and jumps about a bit too much, leaving me a little confused. The one thing that stuck out at me as being most confusing is the very first shot of the missile being launched, it seems to appear from nowhere after Lex and Superman are talking. What I think would work better is if the dialogue continued from that section into his "Now, you may or may not know..." dialogue, but have the first missle launch shot as the visual while he is giving a voice-over explaining his plan. I feel that this would make a much tighter connection between how Lex's "plan" and the missile launch are connected, as it isn't immediately obvious why this missile shot is there, only later on in Lex's dialogue where he explains how a bomb will sink California, by which point I was a asking "What is the missile about?" Then the cut between him smashing the map with his cane and the second shot of the missile going off course really can make an impact and make the audience go "Oh, shit!" Do you get what I mean? It's just this first shot of the missile launching seems a little too abrupt at that point in the scene. Mixing it into a voice-over would make more of a connection in the viewers mind, I feel. It woud also lose a bit of that initial walking around on the map, birds eye view shot, which isn't very good IMO, especially as it looks like Lex is talking to Otis about the plan as SM is out of shot for the first few sentences, and it made me go "Oh, he's talking to SM" when he walked into shot, which again is messy.

How are you going to transition from part 1 to part 2, the couple seconds of Black between them is too much atm, but I guess this is still rough. I'm hoping you lose all relation between part 1 and part 2 and they flow together as one film, I don't want in any way to feel like I'm wathcing two seperate films here.

You said you'll be re-editing the section where the villians first land on Earth, which I feel is necessary, it is a little shoppy here, their first landing scene is probably a little abrupt, needing a little longer before it cuts to Niagra (where the sound should fade in as it is too dramatic a cut for an initial scene which isn't dramatic).

I def agree with lorang's comment about adding in the arm wrestle with Ursa, if only briefly. It does make a bit more sense why the guy goes through the window, just needs that couple extra seconds to tie that together better, I feel. PS love the Johnny Cash music here instead of the Bee Gees, perfect choice :)

I really love how you added the TV footage onto the television of the initial shot of the Whitehouse, that is SO much better than either the silly Mt Rushmore or the footage used in the Donner cut. That is a much better idea. One thing that bugs me though, but I'm sure you can't do anything about, is that you see the back of the presidents head here, which kinda ruins the fake president when the villians first break into the Whitehouse. If someone was paying enough attention here, they would realise that the bald fake president who kneels before Zod initially wasn't the same guy as in this brief scene. It sticks out at me, but I don't know what you could do about this, just something I wanted to mention.

I gotta say, if there is any way you can introduce some Jorel footage back into the scene where SM gets his powers back, I would be very happy to see it. I understand your argument about Jorel lying to SM but to me, this is about a parent protecting their child. He lied to protect him, to try and persuade him not to forsake his powers for Lois. I can accept that. This scene in the Donner cut made me love Superman II so much more as I hated the "mystery" of how SM managed to come back with his powers without any explanation, it just seemed lame to me. When I saw the Donner footage it made me so happy, especially with Jorel using the line "The son becomes the father and the father becomes the son" again, which is so beautiful. This Donner version of this scene really tied it into the first film, and about how SM first loses his adopted father, then, which must be so emotioanlly painful for him, he chooses to to lose his paternal father for the greater good of humanity, which really shows how selfless he has understood he must become to fullfill his destined role on Earth. Sorry to rattle on, but yeah, for me the Donner version of this scene is so amazing that I would be very sad to see it missing from your cut, even though you don't like how Jorel lies to him, I think that from an emotional POV, it makes sense to me and is one of the most significant messages in the whole film.

Finally, I really like your new ending, definitely superior to the super-kiss or the spin-back-time endings, both of which I always thought were lame. I do think that your new shot footage needs to be made a little more subtle, it is a bit too forcefull atm, a subtler cut would probs be better, and the sound isn't mixed to well, there is too much room atmos on the voice, it doesn't sound like it is has been recorded in a studio then played back on a TV set, but yeah tweak that and it'll be great. I think the pace is a little bit too fast though in this final section. After a 3 hour film I think it needs to conclude a little slower, giving more time for SM and the audience to contemplate what has happened between him and Lois and where he must go now, it just seems a little rushed, extend it a bit more and it'll work perfectly.

 

Hope all this is constructive, sorry if I'm waffling a bit and dont make loads of sense, hope you get what I mean. Overall, this is gearing up to be the best version of SM I have ever seen, with the final touches completed and a final DVD released, it will be a fan edit masterpiece and you should be very pleased of what you have achieved :)

Thanks again.

 

www.bardothodol.net

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Yeah, just adding to the sound mix problems.  Often times (particularly the airplane scene), I had to fool around with the volume.  The jets were too loud, and the voices not enough.  Mostly, it was the SFX that overpowered things IMO.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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That could be because it's from the 2-channel mix.  If he changes to the 5.1 track it might be better.

Dr. M

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astromech said:

will definitely give a fuller review once I've finished but these are some comments I'll make for now:

- As with Doctor M, I found the sound to be a little 'up and down' in places. Quite down in the quiet scenes followed by a mega blast in the more lively scenes.

Thanks.  I'll be doing a complete thorough normalization, and probably 5.1 mix for the DVD.

- Otis' blackeye needs to be explained out unless he's a constant klutz...I notice his attempt at changing the codes on the missile is now missing which removes Luthor's punishment of Otis. Any chance of airbrushing it out perhaps?

If I can touch it up without it looking worse, I'll do it.

- I still have a slight problem with young Clark's race against the train - I'm figuring it's to do with the undercranked nature of that scene when originally shot, but it just looks sped up now.

I think no more can be done to fix that scene.  I think it looks good, but I realize it doesn't look perfect.  I didn't speed up any of the footage.  I added some motion blur to his wave to try to make it NOT look sped up.

- Is there any way of matching SII's Brando footage with the footage in SI? He's kinda see through in the first movie but colour in the second. I do accept it would be quite hard to do though seeing as that's the footage restored for the Donner Cut.

I'm going to give it a try, but there's probably not much I can do without having it separated from the background.  And really there are at least three different versions of Hologram Jorel: the original, the extended edition scenes, and the Donner Cut.

Pretty good otherwise so far (have only watched the first part). Pacing, to me, is definitely different, some scenes now run quicker, but will let you know more as I get through the second part of the movie. Good work though...the edit's you've made are pretty seamless...no jarring or noticeable steps.

Great!  Thanks for the input!

-T

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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 (Edited)
pupil said:

Hi Taolar, I just watched your SOJ edit and I am very very impressed :) Overall, fantastic work, this is the best cut of Superman I and II I have seen yet, you have really utilised the various pieces of Superman II in a really coherent way to extend the first film and make it flow as it originally should have.

Thanks!

As has been mentioned by lorang, the scene where Lex is explaining the missile launch plan to Superman while stood on the big map in his lair is rather rough and jumps about a bit too much, leaving me a little confused. The one thing that stuck out at me as being most confusing is the very first shot of the missile being launched, it seems to appear from nowhere after Lex and Superman are talking.

 

It's actually said immediately after his line "No, by causing the death of innocent people."  Please give it another watching.  I think it fits well there.

What I think would work better is if the dialogue continued from that section into his "Now, you may or may not know..." dialogue, but have the first missle launch shot as the visual while he is giving a voice-over explaining his plan. I feel that this would make a much tighter connection between how Lex's "plan" and the missile launch are connected, as it isn't immediately obvious why this missile shot is there, only later on in Lex's dialogue where he explains how a bomb will sink California, by which point I was a asking "What is the missile about?"  Then the cut between him smashing the map with his cane and the second shot of the missile going off course really can make an impact and make the audience go "Oh, shit!" Do you get what I mean? It's just this first shot of the missile launching seems a little too abrupt at that point in the scene. Mixing it into a voice-over would make more of a connection in the viewers mind, I feel.

 

It would cut time to have the voice over, which I'm all for.  But it doesn't fit in with the established style of the film.  Other than some audio overlap during certain transitions, they don't really do voice overs.  I don't think it'll feel right.

I don't see why the missile launch should be very confusing either.  Earlier Lex holds up the newspaper with the headline "New Missile Launch" as he hints at some nefarious land swindle plan.  And of course there's the scene with Ms. T changing the code in the missile.  When the missile launches, I think most people get that it's related to Lex's plans, even if they don't know exactly how yet.

What you're suggesting would clarify things.  But as an audience member, I like the times when I'm a little bit confused, as long as all is explained by the end.  To me, this is intentionally one of those moments.

It woud also lose a bit of that initial walking around on the map, birds eye view shot, which isn't very good IMO, especially as it looks like Lex is talking to Otis about the plan as SM is out of shot for the first few sentences, and it made me go "Oh, he's talking to SM" when he walked into shot, which again is messy.

I re-watched the scene after you posted these criticisms, to see if I agreed.  And then re-watched the original just to see if maybe I took things in the wrong direction (which has happened in other areas, and I've reverted back to originals several times).  The funny thing is, except for cutting out the map overlay and and "otis-ville" parts of the scene, and cutting the end short (just before otis says "Ooh!" and it fades to california) I didn't change that scene.  It works for me.

How are you going to transition from part 1 to part 2, the couple seconds of Black between them is too much atm, but I guess this is still rough. I'm hoping you lose all relation between part 1 and part 2 and they flow together as one film, I don't want in any way to feel like I'm wathcing two seperate films here.

I hear you.  It will definitely be presented as one movie on a single DVD.  I'm not exactly sure how the transition will look though, as I'm intending to redo the escape sequence.

I def agree with lorang's comment about adding in the arm wrestle with Ursa, if only briefly. It does make a bit more sense why the guy goes through the window, just needs that couple extra seconds to tie that together better, I feel.

If I remember right, I couldn't separate the dialog from the Bee Gee's music, so I scraped it.  But I agree, it is too abrupt.  I'm sure I'll take another look at it and see what I can do.

PS love the Johnny Cash music here instead of the Bee Gees, perfect choice :)

Cool, I got lucky on that one, because I don't know any Johnny Cash songs, and was just searching through some country music that was popular in the late 70's.

I really love how you added the TV footage onto the television of the initial shot of the Whitehouse, that is SO much better than either the silly Mt Rushmore or the footage used in the Donner cut.

Actually, I don't think I did that.  If I remember right, that scene is from the Donner Cut, as is.

That is a much better idea. One thing that bugs me though, but I'm sure you can't do anything about, is that you see the back of the presidents head here, which kinda ruins the fake president when the villians first break into the Whitehouse. If someone was paying enough attention here, they would realise that the bald fake president who kneels before Zod initially wasn't the same guy as in this brief scene. It sticks out at me, but I don't know what you could do about this, just something I wanted to mention.

Yeah, I don't think there's much I can do about that. 

I gotta say, if there is any way you can introduce some Jorel footage back into the scene where SM gets his powers back, I would be very happy to see it. I understand your argument about Jorel lying to SM but to me, this is about a parent protecting their child. He lied to protect him, to try and persuade him not to forsake his powers for Lois. I can accept that. This scene in the Donner cut made me love Superman II so much more as I hated the "mystery" of how SM managed to come back with his powers without any explanation, it just seemed lame to me. When I saw the Donner footage it made me so happy, especially with Jorel using the line "The son becomes the father and the father becomes the son" again, which is so beautiful. This Donner version of this scene really tied it into the first film, and about how SM first loses his adopted father, then, which must be so emotioanlly painful for him, he chooses to to lose his paternal father for the greater good of humanity, which really shows how selfless he has understood he must become to fullfill his destined role on Earth. Sorry to rattle on, but yeah, for me the Donner version of this scene is so amazing that I would be very sad to see it missing from your cut, even though you don't like how Jorel lies to him, I think that from an emotional POV, it makes sense to me and is one of the most significant messages in the whole film. 

I will take everyone's views on this scene into account and take another look at the footage. I don't have anything against such a scene, I just personally don't like how they handled it.  Why wasn't there a tearful goodbye when he originally gave up his powers, and thought that he wouldn't see Jorel again?  And in Superman Returns, not only does Jorel return, but the whole plot revolves around Lex using those crystals.  Like I said, I'll take a look at it again, since people do like the scene.   I just don't see how it would work.

Finally, I really like your new ending, definitely superior to the super-kiss or the spin-back-time endings, both of which I always thought were lame.I do think that your new shot footage needs to be made a little more subtle, it is a bit too forcefull atm, a subtler cut would probs be better, and the sound isn't mixed to well, there is too much room atmos on the voice, it doesn't sound like it is has been recorded in a studio then played back on a TV set, but yeah tweak that and it'll be great. I think the pace is a little bit too fast though in this final section. After a 3 hour film I think it needs to conclude a little slower, giving more time for SM and the audience to contemplate what has happened between him and Lois and where he must go now, it just seems a little rushed, extend it a bit more and it'll work perfectly.

More subtlety with that new footage is in the plans.  I'm not sure I have the footage to stretch the ending out any more though...

Hope all this is constructive, sorry if I'm waffling a bit and dont make loads of sense, hope you get what I mean. Overall, this is gearing up to be the best version of SM I have ever seen, with the final touches completed and a final DVD released, it will be a fan edit masterpiece and you should be very pleased of what you have achieved :)

Thanks again.

Yep, it was constructive.  Thanks for the good words and thoughtful criticism, Pupil!

-T

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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For the train racing scene, did you try making the motion blur a bit more cartoony and colorful (like Smallville)?  Still, I thought what you did worked well.

I don't know what the complaint is about the missile launch.  I thought the scene flowed fine.

Have you considered not joining the two films directly but putting in an intermission card and running the score for a minute or two?  At that runtime, it's not unreasonable.

Of course you could just make it a 2-disc set with the disc change covering the problem.  2 DVD5s are cheaper to burn than a DVD9.

Dr. M

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Doctor M said:

For the train racing scene, did you try making the motion blur a bit more cartoony and colorful (like Smallville)?  Still, I thought what you did worked well.

I've never seen Smallville, so I'm not sure what you mean.  But I tried to make it realistic looking.

Have you considered not joining the two films directly but putting in an intermission card and running the score for a minute or two?  At that runtime, it's not unreasonable.

Yes, I did, but scrapped the idea because it doesn't fit in with my intention of making these movies feel more modern.  :)

Of course you could just make it a 2-disc set with the disc change covering the problem.  2 DVD5s are cheaper to burn than a DVD9.

I don't know.  I really like the idea of having the whole thing flow together one movie.  The break does remind people that these were originally two movies.

-T

Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel