State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression — Page 9

I'm of the opinion that when the BD version comes out there'll be further revision; the HD SW release will be a big deal, not just because its SW on HD, but because it'll likely be the first time all six films are available in a single collection, and we all know that Lucasfilm had very, very elaborate plans for the six-film Saga set. At the least, I would say a few of the OT problems will be corrected (lightsabers specifically), but who knows what else will change--probably very minor touches, I'm sure, nothing at all like what fanboys have been speculating and salivating for, but I nonetheless doubt Lucas will be able to resist taking his hands off it. My question is will the awful color-timing remain intact? My feeling to that is probably yes, so we'll have the worst of both worlds.

Mielr said:

Well, you could start with all the people who signed the petition here- and there are many others out there. I think it's safe to say that everyone who saw SW and the 2 sequels in their initial runs would qualify.

Did a lot of people sign the petition here?

I'm not sure everyone who saw the originals back before the SE came out are OOT fans. I think I saw somebody who actually posted here (and caused a stir) who seemed to be an older fan but was into the SE. I'm sure people like that must exist. And among people who prefer the OOT, how many would feel strongly about it, I wonder.

Chewy72 said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

CO said:

sent me a PM, "Nobody cares about the OOT anymore, the saga is 6 movies, as you will never post here again." 

Question, do we have any idea how numerous OOT fans are? I don't mean actual figures. I mean is there a lot of us? How numerous are we compared to TFN-type fans? How numerous are we compared to older fans who've accepted the SE and don't care about the OOT?

I look at it this way, what do the majority of SW fans prefer?  I still say the OOT.  I have many friends who bought the '04 SE DVD because it was the OT in any form, and they all say to me, "I just put up with the changes, what can you do?"  You'll never going to know on the internet, because it is only a small fraction of the SW fanbase, so what we see posted everyday on SW websites really can't be judged as anything specific.

The bottom line is if you ask the majority of SW fans these questions:

1.  Do you want Han shooting first reinstated?

2.  Do you want the Jabba scene in Star Wars taken out?

3.  Do you want Jedi Rock taken out in ROTJ for the old song?

4.  Do you want the original ending with old man Anakin rather then Hayden?

5.  Do you want Vaders line in ESB, "Bring my shuttle!"  back

The majority of SW fans would say yes to all these questions, so they are the major changes to the OOT that everyone hates.  Now if Lucas did some special effect changes, and didn't take any actors out I believe the OOT vs SE wouldn't exist.

We'll never know, but if Lucas put out on BluRay the OOT in one boxset and the SE in another boxset in the same quality, I still say the OOT would sell more, because the PT/SE fanbase is still a niche fanbase compared to the OOT fans who really never got into the PT movies and dont' have much of a voice anymore, as they probably moved on sometime after ROTJ.

 

 How much of a minority are we on the net?

And are you sure the internet fandom is only a small part of the star Wars buying public (people who'd buy the dvds or whatever)? Because it's very easy for people to find their way onto sites and forums these days.

 the PT/SE fanbase is still a niche fanbase compared to the OOT fans who really never got into the PT movies and dont' have much of a voice anymore, as they probably moved on sometime after ROTJ.

But is a fanbase that doesn't have much of a voice anymore going to buy Star Wars on blu-ray or HD or dvd or whatever? If many of us have moved on and aren't on the net, are they going to care enough about OOT vs SE to search out OOT dvds? Are enough of these silent fans really going to shell out money enough that they would make a serious difference in dvd sales?

If we're just a minority voice on the net, do we matter in terms of what can have an effect on Lucas's bank account?

zombie84 said:The OOT prints exist! Of course they do! LFL did not destroy them. All Lucas said was that the original negative no longers exists. Because it doesn't--it wasn't physically destroyed, as in chucked in a furnace, it was just re-edited, so the negative now is in the edit configuration of the 1997 SE, thus technically you cannot go and make a new print without doing some work to put the O-neg back together the way it was. In any case, they have multiple Interpositives and Internegatives, plus reference prints, and Lucas himself owns a dye-transfer Technicolor print, which he lent to YCM labs as a reference for color since dye-transfer does not fade.

 Hold on. See here: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa120.html#aswrant

On that page they say Lucas recalled and destroyed lots of prints back when he was making the SE. So maybe they don't have prints now, maybe they did destroy all the ones they have. Interpositives, internegatives, reference prints, the dye-transfer technicolor print you mentioned... maybe it's all gone. I know people keep mentioning Empire of Dreams as proof that he has prints hidden away, but isn't that just a few shots? All that would prove is that he has a few shots, not a full print.

The deliberate destruction of ALL that stuff (that's endless feet of film all over the world- including stealing the archive print from the Library of Congress, Ocean's 11 style!) would be pretty hard to do. 

Whatever the true number of people who really want the original version might be, it can't be any less than there was for Close Encounters

Baronlando said:

The deliberate destruction of ALL that stuff (that's endless feet of film all over the world- including stealing the archive print from the Library of Congress, Ocean's 11 style!) would be pretty hard to do. 

Whatever the true number of people who really want the original version might be, it can't be any less than there was for Close Encounters

Well, the page I linked to didn't say he destroyed all the prints in the world or anything from the library of congress, just that he recalled and destroyed all the release prints he could and that he said in 1997 that the original theatrical versions no longer existed. I don't have a clue about the accuracy of that account, but I've seen stuff said (in other places than that page) that would fit with that.

 I guess  I can believe he did have lawyers sniff out and destroy whatever he could that was out there, maybe just because he's so against that version being shown publicly, but they wouldn't make a dvd/blu-ray from those prints anyway. They're all chewed up from being projected 5 times a day. (and Star Wars played theaters on and off for 3 solid years!). That seems different from raiding and destroying stuff from his own vaults, since he keeps everything. they even still had the alternate angles from the raw dailies of Alec Guinness for that Revenge of the Sith trailer. Wouldn't it be weird if the missing shots were reconstructed from alternate takes? Apparently, The new Blu-ray Godfather had to do exactly that for a few seconds.

On the other hand, it was mentioned here that some rich dude in LA has a 70mm print that he recently showed privately that supposedly still looked great. I saw a screening of a 70mm print around 1991 that looked brand new, maybe there's a small wave of new(er), nicer prints out there (made for stuff like the 1987 trilogy screenings and some other semi-forgotten events that took place during the "dark times" of the 80s and 90s?)

I'm praying there's prints out there that can be used to preserve the film and put it on future formats for generations, but I don't have a clue. The page I linked to said that prints survive in private possession and in film archives.

That report is heresay. Its unfounded and unsubstantiated, aside from the fact that 1) it would be pretty hard to do, 2) there ARE still prints of the OOT out there, and 3) LFL and Fox still have master prints such as IPs, INs, seperation masters and the dye-transfer print used as a color -reference for the SE itself. The whole "Lucas destroyed them all" thing is just a rumor started by panicy fans. Its possible that LFL might have destroyed a few excessive copies they had (ie release prints) to clear up some space, but LFL would not have literally destroyed every copy.

zombie84 said:

That report is heresay. Its unfounded and unsubstantiated, aside from the fact that 1) it would be pretty hard to do, 2) there ARE still prints of the OOT out there, and 3) LFL and Fox still have master prints such as IPs, INs, seperation masters and the dye-transfer print used as a color -reference for the SE itself. The whole "Lucas destroyed them all" thing is just a rumor started by panicy fans. Its possible that LFL might have destroyed a few excessive copies they had (ie release prints) to clear up some space, but LFL would not have literally destroyed every copy.

But how do we know that Lucasfilm and Fox have "master prints such as IPs, INs, seperation masters and the dye-transfer print used as a color -reference for the SE itself"?

Thanks for the info, btw. :)

Because they've been referred to in that time since. Even still, it makes absolutely no sense why they would destroy some of the highest-quality material for the film--the SE is actually made up of parts of the IN.

I think this whole thing stems from a confusion of a few sources:

1) Lucas says the original print doesn't exist anymore. He's talking about the O-neg. And he's right--its been re-edited into the SE. You'd have to go back to the trim bins and put the original pieces back in.

2)Lucasfilm claims that the GOUT is the highest quality material. This is, frankly, marketing bullshit; its the best pre-existing video transfer, is what they perhaps mean.

3)Lucasfilm indeed took OOT prints out of circulation. Were some of them destroyed? Maybe. After all, what is the point in having 100 degrading, scratchy release-prints of a film that will never supposedly be screened again. They almost assuredly kept a master release print, I'm sure, as this is standard practice, and no doubt a few exist in the Fox vaults too. However, these would not really be used as sources for future releases in the first place so it really doesn't matter.

zombie84 said:

Because they've been referred to in that time since. Even still, it makes absolutely no sense why they would destroy some of the highest-quality material for the film--the SE is actually made up of parts of the IN.

I think this whole thing stems from a confusion of a few sources:

1) Lucas says the original print doesn't exist anymore. He's talking about the O-neg. And he's right--its been re-edited into the SE. You'd have to go back to the trim bins and put the original pieces back in.

2)Lucasfilm claims that the GOUT is the highest quality material. This is, frankly, marketing bullshit; its the best pre-existing video transfer, is what they perhaps mean.

3)Lucasfilm indeed took OOT prints out of circulation. Were some of them destroyed? Maybe. After all, what is the point in having 100 degrading, scratchy release-prints of a film that will never supposedly be screened again. They almost assuredly kept a master release print, I'm sure, as this is standard practice, and no doubt a few exist in the Fox vaults too. However, these would not really be used as sources for future releases in the first place so it really doesn't matter.

 

Ok. But I thought Lucasfilm said the existing prints were in bad condition or that they went looking for stuff to make the GOUT out of and found nothing?

And is Harris right that if they don't restore the OOT now the prints will deteriorate that they won't be restorable (if that's the gist of what he said)? That it'll be too late in the future?

(Appreciating the info btw.)

zombie84 said:

1) Lucas says the original print doesn't exist anymore. He's talking about the O-neg. And he's right--its been re-edited into the SE. You'd have to go back to the trim bins and put the original pieces back in.

What if he didn't keep what cut out?

The movie was physically restored in 1997 THEN the new effects were created (you can't paste a shitty Jumanji dinosaur into an unrestored shot!) so all that stuff should be fine, i would think. And I don't think he would then throw out any original negative shots, if only because he might want them again for future changes.

I think 2009 is the ideal year to do a simple 3 disc Blu-ray set since...what else have they got to release for the year? And the sooner they do it the sooner they can double dip for the ultimate special versions, which is already the plan for Lord of the Rings and Star Trek. (basic theatricals now, more deluxe later). But that would be too normal.