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StarWarsLegacy.com - The Official Thread — Page 19

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mverta said:

... The assets needed to restore the film are deteriorating every day; they won't last forever.  If you have a chance to restore the film now, you take it, no matter what, because the chance won't come again.

 

_Mike

 

I admit this is a valid point, and it could be a mistake to pass on this now and regret it in the future.

However I still don't get what you are trying to accomplish with teasing this community with something you don't intend to distribute.

You claim this project is not about the bragging rights, yet the post about your CGI R2-D2 project seems ver much like bragging to me.

You are also posting this on a forum where some of the most dedicated, respected and knowledgeable Star Wars fans in existence exchange their ideas, opinions and in most cases also share their hard work. So I guess getting respect and recognition has nothing to do with it either? I have no doubts that preserving the legacy of star wars is one of your reasons to do this, but it is very clear you are also doing this for your ego. 

You seem like a very competent person and I hope you succeed, but if you don't intend to distribute the result the entire project is futile.

 

 

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grisan said:

However I still don't get what you are trying to accomplish with teasing this community with something you don't intend to distribute.

Because it shows us that he's actually doing it.  And I have a positive hope and prayer that the powers that be will restore Star Wars (with mverta's restoration having been done by then) will eventually be officially released in Blu.  Until then, we'll have to make do with our preservations.  (which, sadly, I still have absolutely no access to)

http://images.fanedit.org/images/FE%3C3OT/fe-ot1_signature.png

The franchises I get nerdy about are so obscure that not even most nerds know about them.

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Maybe those with 35s can look for ideas?

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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grisan said:


You claim this project is not about the bragging rights, yet the post about your CGI R2-D2 project seems ver much like bragging to me.

 

There's a difference between bragging and taking pride in your work... I'd say this is the latter ;)

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More to the point... if you think anything you do, Star-Wars-related, is worth bragging about, then you need to do more with your life.  Talk about being the tiniest king on the smallest of hills... my God...

At this point, I might recommend you let it drop, inasmuch as you're coming across about as transparent as a window.  But, you know, your call. 

 

 

_Mike

View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!

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mverta said:

Legacy isn't about you or me; it's not about what we have or don't have.  It's about honoring Star Wars and preserving history.  It's done for Star Wars' sake; for history's sake.  That should be a unifying cause.  But when it really comes down to it, a lot of so-called fans don't actually care about protecting Star Wars in any meaningful way.  They just want the film for themselves, and if they can't have it, they throw a tantrum.  They don't rejoice in the fact that such a beautiful piece of work is safe.  All they really want to know is what they get or don't get out of the deal. And the irony is, that is the exact attitude which keeps them from having what they want, ultimately.

If someone came to you with the materials to do a Star Wars restoration beyond anyone's wildest dreams, on the condition that you may never share it publicly, what would you do? And if they came to you precisely because of your commitment to keeping it private; to the film itself; to history itself; because of your trustworthiness... what would you do?  Turn down the opportunity, or worse, betray that trust and guarantee no future prospects?  Doubtful.  You'd probably do what I did, which is enjoy the rewards of honor and principle, and let the future - the completely unknown future, by the way - play out as it will.  

I document the process for education, entertainment, and celebration of Star Wars.  And while this concept seems foreign to some people, it can be gratifying to watch good work happen even if you have nothing directly to gain from it.  If you head over to scifi-meshes.com you will see talented 3D artists building amazingly accurate models of Star Wars ships (among other things) which nobody in the end will have any access to.  Nobody "gets" anything out of the deal, beyond enjoying the show, celebrating the craft, and learning a lot along the way.  For those for whom this concept is foreign and valueless: tough shit.  There are plenty of good restorations out there, anyway, so stop whining.

It's not my first rodeo.  When I was hired by Lucasfilm to do a new CG R2-D2, I went absolutely nuts with accuracy and detail - measuring, photographing, and documenting original units in the Lucasfilm Archives, and recreating every nuance possible in my CG model.  It took, ultimately, 4 years to do.  In the end, while it makes its appearance wherever it needs to, nobody "gets anything" for that, either. But I'm proud of the work, grateful to have been given the opportunity, and honored to have made any contribution to the world of Star Wars.  That has always been enough for me.

_Mike

Mike, thanks for taking the time to reply to us. Now I understand.

After learning your perspective, it sounds like you're probably doing the right thing. If I were in your shoes, I guess I'd do that too: just do what I can for the present, and hope that the future will get to see my efforts.

It sounds like you're in a difficult position, but if you were able to state some of these things on your site, it might help people understand your decision on distribution. Just something like "I hope one day I will be able to share my completed project with everyone. But unfortunately, because of certain sources, I doubt that will happen."

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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mverta said:

Legacy isn't about you or me; it's not about what we have or don't have.  It's about honoring Star Wars and preserving history.  It's done for Star Wars' sake; for history's sake.  That should be a unifying cause.  But when it really comes down to it, a lot of so-called fans don't actually care about protecting Star Wars in any meaningful way.  They just want the film for themselves, and if they can't have it, they throw a tantrum.  They don't rejoice in the fact that such a beautiful piece of work is safe.  All they really want to know is what they get or don't get out of the deal. And the irony is, that is the exact attitude which keeps them from having what they want, ultimately.

 

If someone came to you with the materials to do a Star Wars restoration beyond anyone's wildest dreams, on the condition that you may never share it publicly, what would you do? And if they came to you precisely because of your commitment to keeping it private; to the film itself; to history itself; because of your trustworthiness... what would you do?  Turn down the opportunity, or worse, betray that trust and guarantee no future prospects?  Doubtful.  You'd probably do what I did, which is enjoy the rewards of honor and principle, and let the future - the completely unknown future, by the way - play out as it will.  

 

I document the process for education, entertainment, and celebration of Star Wars.  And while this concept seems foreign to some people, it can be gratifying to watch good work happen even if you have nothing directly to gain from it.  If you head over to scifi-meshes.com you will see talented 3D artists building amazingly accurate models of Star Wars ships (among other things) which nobody in the end will have any access to.  Nobody "gets" anything out of the deal, beyond enjoying the show, celebrating the craft, and learning a lot along the way.  For those for whom this concept is foreign and valueless: tough shit.  There are plenty of good restorations out there, anyway, so stop whining.

 

It's not my first rodeo.  When I was hired by Lucasfilm to do a new CG R2-D2, I went absolutely nuts with accuracy and detail - measuring, photographing, and documenting original units in the Lucasfilm Archives, and recreating every nuance possible in my CG model.  It took, ultimately, 4 years to do.  In the end, while it makes its appearance wherever it needs to, nobody "gets anything" for that, either. But I'm proud of the work, grateful to have been given the opportunity, and honored to have made any contribution to the world of Star Wars.  That has always been enough for me.

 

_Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well said. Your passion for Star Wars is very inspiring Mike. I for one make due with my 2006 DVD versions and have no intention of getting any of the various preservation's, but am happy to know that somewhere, someone will have preserved the Star Wars of my childhood.

I had a question, if I may. Have you ever had an opportunity to see the 70mm technicolor version of Star Wars?

 

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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mverta said:

Indeed I have.  Many times, back in the day...

 

_Mike

Well, I'm jealous. I only have vague recollections of seeing the original Star Wars in theatres.

Is the 70mm technicolor your primary guide to how Legacy should look? IIRC, you mentioned that during the standard def restoration you usually referenced the laser discs.

I am curious if you kept the inconsistent colouring of the Death Star walls (sometimes grey, sometimes green-grey) that the 70mm technicolor seems to show.

And please tell me that the sand on Tatooine is yellow again!

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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There are varying levels/versions of restoration which are performed. Certainly there is a "warts and all" version with very little touched.  But in general, the grading of Legacy is determined, essentially, by balancing two factors: 1) the original color timing of Technicolor prints and 2) knowing the absolute color values of props, costumes, and set pieces.

If, for example, Darth Vader's helmet appears alternately green-ish, blue-ish, and red-ish during a scene, only one of them is correct (not really, but you get the idea).  Legacy matches them all to each other, and then matches that group to the original Technicolor timing which most closely matches the actual prop, and other items in the scene. Usually, you'll find that is 90% of such shots in the film, which indicates that with some exceptions, no particularly stylized grading was done to Star Wars.  Most things were shot and timed fairly neutrally, plus whatever bias the stock naturally has.

 

The Death Star coloring is due partly to some of the set pieces actually being different colors, and lots just appearing that way because of inconsistencies in timing, and transfer anomalies over the years.  Fortunately, I know which is which :)  So I'm not making the slightly blue ones and green ones match, but all the blue ones match each other, and all the green ones match each other.

 

As for your absolute sense of color: don't trust it.  Humans have an absolutely terrible memory for absolute color, and our perception system auto white-balances.  This is why it's so dangerous to go "by eye" though we often have little choice.

 

_Mike

View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!

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mverta said:

There are varying levels/versions of restoration which are performed. Certainly there is a "warts and all" version with very little touched.  But in general, the grading of Legacy is determined, essentially, by balancing two factors: 1) the original color timing of Technicolor prints and 2) knowing the absolute color values of props, costumes, and set pieces.

If, for example, Darth Vader's helmet appears alternately green-ish, blue-ish, and red-ish during a scene, only one of them is correct (not really, but you get the idea).  Legacy matches them all to each other, and then matches that group to the original Technicolor timing which most closely matches the actual prop, and other items in the scene. Usually, you'll find that is 90% of such shots in the film, which indicates that with some exceptions, no particularly stylized grading was done to Star Wars.  Most things were shot and timed fairly neutrally, plus whatever bias the stock naturally has.

 

The Death Star coloring is due partly to some of the set pieces actually being different colors, and lots just appearing that way because of inconsistencies in timing, and transfer anomalies over the years.  Fortunately, I know which is which :)  So I'm not making the slightly blue ones and green ones match, but all the blue ones match each other, and all the green ones match each other.

 

As for your absolute sense of color: don't trust it.  Humans have an absolutely terrible memory for absolute color, and our perception system auto white-balances.  This is why it's so dangerous to go "by eye" though we often have little choice.

 

_Mike

Thank you very much for the info! I look forward to seeing some screenshots of your results once you have your new site up and running.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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mverta said:

As for your absolute sense of color: don't trust it.  Humans have an absolutely terrible memory for absolute color, and our perception system auto white-balances.  This is why it's so dangerous to go "by eye" though we often have little choice.

Very true. I know this also since I've been calibrating TVs and monitors using a colorimeter. The human eye does not have much accuracy compared to that.

Anyway, I've been reading through this thread and it's nice to see that there's a restoration like this going on. Even though this won't be shared it will be nice to know that Star Wars is preserved in as good quality as possible. Maybe one day if George Lucas could "wake up", or when he is not alive anymore, things like this could surface for everyone to enjoy.

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The highest quality source in the universe is in George's basement - a Technicolor IB print.  And even that is at least three generations from the original negative (Negative>Inter-Positive>Inter-Negative>Print), which has long since degenerated into nothing.  So in the purest sense, Star Wars is already gone forever.  But if one had access to George's - or one of the few remaining other Technicolor IB prints - and was truly, extraordinarily clever and patient, today's tools make it as possible to get back to the look of the negative as has even been possible before.

 

That is the task to undertake, in case the future sees a reversal of position on the matter.

 

_Mike

View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!

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Okay, perhaps I'm being cynical but - with the recent revelation that the LoC doesn't even have a copy, wouldn't it be possible that Lucasfilm threw out its own technicolor print? How do we know it's still there?

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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bkev wrote: Okay, perhaps I'm being cynical but - with the recent revelation that the LoC doesn't even have a copy,

The LoC has multiple copies (Copyright Deposits) of each film.  They are prints which were provided after each of the initial movie runs in theaters.  They are used and worn.

Here is the Copyright Deposit information for Star Wars (1977): http://lccn.loc.gov/96512247

The recent revelation (not so new actually) is that the National Film Registry (a subsection of the Library of Congress) did not receive the new copies they asked for.  The NFR was created so that when the public voted a work as significant, the NFR would ask the original creator for a new clean print to be struck and submitted for preservation.

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My apologies.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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Although any and all restorations are welcome, I doubt this one will be the end-all & be-all.

1. You claim that the absolute best element in the world is Lucas' IB print. I've read that IB prints are actually bad sources for restorations due to high contrast. They are very useful as a colour reference, however.

2. You claim that the original negative is gone. It was last scanned in 2004, and the result, although degrained, looks great. There are some pieces missing (certain scenes were shot on high-fade Color Reversal Intermediate stock, which was replaced with new recomposited/altered negative in 1997), but I'm sure that there exist several usable dupes in the archives (likely including last-resort separation masters).

3. You claim that even the newest scanners can't see what's *really* on film. Maybe to a certain degree, but heavily used, high production volume release prints most certainly can't reflect what the movie should really look like, even with colour timing based on original props (they can, of course, show us how it looked in the theaters). As "off" as the special editon restorations are (due to bad advice from the powers that be), they were made (mostly) from the o-neg, by professional film restorers. I don't know what your profession is, but I do know that you haven't given us any film restoration credentials...

George Lucas is a slick businessman. He knows exactly how to milk Star Wars fans dry. His next move will be Star Wars in 3D, followed by an OOT restoration, as that is all he has left in the tank. Expect it in 2017 (40th anniversary).

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You have much to learn, young grasshoppah.  :)   But don't worry; head on over to the legacy forums and we'll get you sorted out in time. :)

 

_Mike

View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!

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I've gotten the impression from the posts i've read that you have a high quality scan of the original version of star wars.  Is this correct?

"I will laugh my ass off a hundred years from now when the only version of STARWARS people remember are harmys despecialized editions.  They will project it on a 20' by 40' screen with perfect quality."

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lurker77 said:

1. You claim that the absolute best element in the world is Lucas' IB print. I've read that IB prints are actually bad sources for restorations due to high contrast. They are very useful as a colour reference, however.

 Basically, it said that the Technicolor print would be a lot more work to restore from it. Everything us fans are doing is already a lot more work ;)

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Thanks for updating, Mike. It seems that the Legacy frame has visibly better quality and detail. I like the colors as well.