logo Sign In

Star Wars most inconsistent plot point, in my opinion: Star Wars Lethal Alliance game — Page 2

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Darth_Evil
Gomer, don't lie. You wouldn't be on here 24/7 glorifying Lucas if you....

....weren't a troll seeking to disrupt a board.

A prequel \ Lucas lover wouldn't be on a board titled originaltrilogy.com otherwise.

Forum Moderator
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Anchorhead
Originally posted by: Darth_Evil
Gomer, don't lie. You wouldn't be on here 24/7 glorifying Lucas if you....

....weren't a troll seeking to disrupt a board.

A prequel \ Lucas lover wouldn't be on a board titled originaltrilogy.com otherwise.


Errr, why not? Last I remember, we were a board of people who banded together because we wanted Lucas to release the O-OT on DVD. There's nothing in that description that says you have to hate the prequels, hate Lucas, or even hate the Special Editions--as long as you want the O-OT on DVD, you fit in here.

And in all honesty I'm failing to see why everyone is up-in-arms about Gomer. He hasn't attacked or insulted anyone, except those who WANT to be offended.

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

Maybe it isn't so much "how dare Lucas contradict what I had assumed" but more of, "I really prefer the way I was looking at it before".


I always have reasons, from the actual films, that lead me to prefer what I prefer in Star Wars. It's never a thing where I simply reject a change because I wanted something else alone. George's additions or changes seem to war with what was previously implied in the sense where the concepts are stretched too far, become too coicidental, or just seem totally out of character.

Perfect example: I was looking through the Star Wars visual guide yesterday and I was horrified to discover a box depicting Darth Vader holding C-3PO's head. The caption below the image claimed that Chewie was given the pieces of C-3PO by Darth Vader in ESB!

First, we're supposed to imagine that Darth Vader would actually give a shit about some random box of blasted, protocol-droid pieces (sitting in Princess Leia's room) long enough to discover that it was the very same robot he built as a boy. Then, out of his disgust for his previous life and what he's now become, he orders his clone troopers to destroy the parts. But, as Darth Vader walks away, he feels a tear jerking at his eyes. He stops and, with a lump in his throat, looks back towards the box. Feelings of remorse and loss surge through him causing him to become fond of the droid once more. He immediately rescinds his previous order and tells the clone troopers to deliver the parts to the wookie's torture cell.

George Lucas consider's that canon?!

Darth Vader would never be that pathetic. The kind of character he was portrayed as, in the films, would have never made any of those dramatic steps, much less all of them. It was better to assume that Lando had delivered the parts to Chewbaca's cell since that would at least make sense (Lando's character would have done that).

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

Author
Time
Post link
Chewie was given the pieces of C-3PO by Darth Vader in ESB!


huh? That makes no sense at all. We clearly see Chewie stumble into the incinerator room and grab the big box of parts.


and Gomer, you talk about how the new additions challenge the creativity of the viewer and all that stuff, but I'd have to say I think it's just the opposite. When there was only the OT, people could be as creative as they wanted with the backstory, and nobody would be wrong. Then the PT gets made and says, "No! THIS is what happened!" Which is more challenging to the viewers' creativity?

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Nanner Split
Chewie was given the pieces of C-3PO by Darth Vader in ESB!


huh? That makes no sense at all. We clearly see Chewie stumble into the incinerator room and grab the big box of parts.


That's actually referring to how Chewie got them back, rather than how he found them in the first place. Remember that he left the parts in Leia's room before Lando took them to Vader. Then they were imprisoned. So the question always was: how did Chewie get the pieces back after that? I suppose I could see Lando doing that. That's the only thing that makes any sense to me.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time
Post link
It's something I never thought about. In fact, you'd have to think about it to find there's anything to think about it all, which is why I don't care about little things like that.
Watch DarthEvil's Who Framed Darth Vader? video on YouTube!

You can also access the entire Horriffic Violence Theater Series from my Channel Page.
Author
Time
Post link
Probably a question that'll be answered in the NEXT special edition. Because you know, every little detail has to be spelled out these days.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Darth_Evil
you'd have to think about it to find there's anything to think about it all, which is why I don't care about little things like that.

It goes back to what I've always believed about Lucas and Star Wars. He wrote A story. It made for one great film, a good sequel in most people's eyes, and an unnecessary third film that was weak. Not having done much else after that, comparatively - he decided to revive the franchise two decades later. However, instead of telling another story, he decided to keep trying to tell that same story. There wasn't really enough story to stretch through three films the first time around, so the next three films were really stretching his original story to it's limits.

Lucas isn't a good storyteller. So, he won't (or doesn't want to) stray away from his one successful story. Instead, he actually sits down and concerns himself with the back-story of completely meaningless details, of single scenes, from 25 year old films - it's embarrassing.

The back-story of how a box of parts was moved from one room to another - that's just pathetic.

Star Trek - a very successful, respected, decades-old franchise - has many different stories, characters, movies, shows, etc. They are separate stories, with separate adventures, different ships, planets, organizations, people, crew members, etc - taking place in different times. Picard doesn't have to have some pretzel-logic back-story that somehow connects him to Kirk. They went to the same academy - that's it, that's how the stories are connected. That's more than enough.

A great story, with interesting characters is vastly superior to a they're-somehow-connected-after-all-these-years story.

Why not have a story \ movie about Han as a young guy becoming a smuggler? - or a film about Lando as a pirate who ends up becoming a successful business owner with a shady past? You could have stand-alone films with a character or two that was familiar, but wasn't dependent on several other films to be complete, or meaningful, or fun to watch. People could use their imagination to connect the stories - or not, if they didn't want to. Either way, they'd have a great movie - a complete story - to watch.

Like they did in 1977.





Forum Moderator
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Darth_Evil
It's something I never thought about. In fact, you'd have to think about it to find there's anything to think about it all, which is why I don't care about little things like that.
So for the classic trilogy it's not worth even thinking about stuff like this, but when it comes to the prequels, nothing can be left unquestioned?


Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
So for the classic trilogy it's not worth even thinking about stuff like this, but when it comes to the prequels, nothing can be left unquestioned?


No. For any movie, spelling out every little tiny action results in a movie that is bloated and poorly paced.

Case in point with respect to Empire - the inserted shots of Vader leaving Bespin to go back to his Star Destroyer. I find those inserts drastically disrupt the flow of the Falcon's escape while being pursued by TIE fighters. As a viewer I didn't need it spelled out to me how Vader got from Bespin to the Executor. Who cares? He got there somehow. It *not* being spelt out allowed for a much more tension-filled escape that had a much better flow to it.
George Lucas, October 1979: There are essentially nine films in a series of three trilogies. I have story treatments on all nine.
George Lucas, February 1999: I never had a story for the sequels.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: JamesEightBitStar

And in all honesty I'm failing to see why everyone is up-in-arms about Gomer. He hasn't attacked or insulted anyone, except those who WANT to be offended.

He has twisted and controlled just about every conversation here since he started posting. He may be a stealth troll who doesn't outright attack others, but he is a troll nonetheless. He is perverting this message board into nothing but arguments about the P.T., and I am frelling sick of it.

Author
Time
Post link
I am also for the school of "less is more" sometimes. Especially with minor details like these. I mean once we see Vader on his bridge, it's pretty clear that's where he went.

But at the same time, I can see how some people get lost in location changes like that. Lucas goes to great lengths to visually separate the locations so that a viewer can instantly know where they are at any given moment, but in that one part, it's like Vader is on the gantry in the middle of cloud city, then suddenly he's on the bridge of his Star Destroyer?

I agree the edit does sort of break up the pacing that was there originally. Maybe it can be smoothed out for the box set next year.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Post link
Theoretically, to smooth it out I'd just have Vader asking for his shuttle. MAYBE the shot of him walking out to it on the landing platform. Removing the flight to the Star Destroyer and the docking scene would restore a lot of the original's pacing while providing the spelling-out of where Vader's going.

I still see it as unnecessary, but since Lucas doesn't I could see that as an alternative to breaking up the pacing of the Falcon's escape.
George Lucas, October 1979: There are essentially nine films in a series of three trilogies. I have story treatments on all nine.
George Lucas, February 1999: I never had a story for the sequels.
Author
Time
Post link
And I agree that it was a poor bit of editing, done in service of great pacing, that shows Vader one moment on Cloud City and the next on a StarDestroyer. Yes, audiences can make the leap of logic, but it's just plain poor filmmaking technique to simply show someone at one place in one moment, and then someplace else the next .... even if the audience can put together some means of transportation and assume enough time has actually transpired between the shots viewed four seconds apart. But it's not something you want to have an audience be forced to do during an action sequence.


So ... we are at the point where I agree this was a fix the Special Editions might want to tackle.

BUT ... as with most of the "fixes," the execution was worse than the problem in the first place.


Rather than interrupt the flow of the film's concluding action sequence, much less the brilliantly-composed score by John Williams - a simple re-shoot of Vader's first 3-second Bridge sequence, instead filmed at an airlock - would have conveyed the transport and transport-time notion to audiences in an instant, and would not have interrupted either the editorial or music flow of the existing sequence. A filmmaker could not have asked for an easier-to-accomplish reshoot 15 years later than to have the featured actor be a man in a full head mask with no new dialogue needed!

So, there's no excuse for Lucas bungling this one. He's a cinema IDIOT!


.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
... as with most of the "fixes," the execution was worse than the problem in the first place.

...there's no excuse for Lucas bungling this one. He's a cinema IDIOT!


I agree.
Two of his films (to me, at least) are great and I can watch them repeatedly - Star Wars and Raiders Of The Lost Ark. The rest of his work is mediocre at best. There's no denying he's had astronomical commercial success. However, that doesn't always indicate critical success or artistic ability. In fact, in this day and age, it almost guarantees mediocrity. McDonald's, Starbucks, and Reality TV shows - are a few examples that come to mind. These things make millions for their shareholders and are wildly popular - but none of them are any kind of high-water mark in their worlds.

Starbucks is open about not making the very best espresso - they readily admit that they strive only to make the one that appeals to the masses. Marketing does the rest. Want a really fantastic espresso? - go to an independent coffee house. Same with McDonald's - ok burger coupled with mass marketing. Want a great burger? - go to a smaller, independent place. Reality TV - it will only be remembered as a trend. Want a great TV program? - go buy a DVD of a much more intelligent show or look around on cable for something that took months to produce.

Lucas is no artist. He doesn't have to be - he's a hell of a businessman.


Forum Moderator
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Anchorhead

Two of his films (to me, at least) are great and I can watch them repeatedly - Star Wars and Raiders Of The Lost Ark. The rest of his work is mediocre at best. There's no denying he's had astronomical commercial success. However, that doesn't always indicate critical success or artistic ability. In fact, in this day and age, it almost guarantees mediocrity. McDonald's, Starbucks, and Reality TV shows - are a few examples that come to mind. These things make millions for their shareholders and are wildly popular - but none of them are any kind of high-water mark in their worlds.

Starbucks is open about not making the very best espresso - they readily admit that they strive only to make the one that appeals to the masses. Marketing does the rest. Want a really fantastic espresso? - go to an independent coffee house. Same with McDonald's - ok burger coupled with mass marketing. Want a great burger? - go to a smaller, independent place. Reality TV - it will only be remembered as a trend. Want a great TV program? - go buy a DVD of a much more intelligent show or look around on cable for something that took months to produce.

Lucas is no artist. He doesn't have to be - he's a hell of a businessman.


Absolutely. That's the thing about our world. No one gives a shit about quality as long as it brings in money. McDonalds is great for on the go, but it is rather unhealthy and way to expensive for the quality of the food. Same with Starbucks. Fine for quick on the go, but not the quality you should be getting. There was a coffee house here that was doing really well, had great food and coffee, and was something lots of people went too. Then a Starbucks opened across the street. Bam. That coffee house is no longer open.

Same thing with reality TV. It shows just how stupid America is when more people voted in American Idol than in the presidential election. Reality TV, in my mind, is not TV, nor anything near passable as entertainment. It's a cheap, stupid way to make a quick buck, and I hate it. NBC is the worst right now. The show "Studio 60" is far and away the best new show of the season, and one of the best in the last few years, but it is soon going to be cancelled and replaced with a new reality TV Show. I guess 7 million viewers isn't all that many now. Funny. 7 million seems like a lot to me. It's thier own damn fualt for airing it in the same time slot as CSI. But when the going gets tough, get a new, no quality reality TV show.

And Saw 3 brought in 34 million dollars this weekend. How I weep....

Watch DarthEvil's Who Framed Darth Vader? video on YouTube!

You can also access the entire Horriffic Violence Theater Series from my Channel Page.
Author
Time
Post link
It's gotten to the point I don't even watch TV anymore, unless Earl or the Office is on.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Post link
I haven't watched those shows. Lately, I'm finding that content released on DVD by HBO is really good.
Author
Time
Post link
Tiptup, when it comes to EU, I figure take what you want and leave the rest. Just because Vader is explained to have given Chewie 3-PO's parts, doesn't mean that's how we need to look at it. From what I recall, that was something out of an infinities storyline, I'm not sure why they would act like it's an official part of canon.


Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
It's gotten to the point I don't even watch TV anymore, unless Earl or the Office is on.


Same here, Gomer. Those are the only shows I watch as well.

And my friend is slowly getting me into Smallville as well, but I'll have to catch up on the old ones before I watch any new ones.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
And I agree that it was a poor bit of editing, done in service of great pacing, that shows Vader one moment on Cloud City and the next on a StarDestroyer.


Not at all. The last scene with Darth Vader before you see him on the Star Destroyer has him walking outside onto a landing platform. He's stomping and his voice oozes with anger and frustration as he says, "Prepare my shuttle." That was gorgeous.

Lucas' change had Darth Vader stroll outside and, in a dull, stuffy-nosed voice, say "Alert my star destroyer to prepare for my arrival." Then we get this huge scene depicting Darth Vader landing his shuttle on the SSD while we're supposed to be worried if Luke and the others are escaping. All in all, in place of a good scene, we get horrible dialogue, bad acting, and and ruined dramatic pacing. Typical George.


Oh, and Go-Mer, I assume that the idea of Darth Vader finding C-3PO is official since it's in the visual guide. I wonder if George will make a full, CGI render of that scene for his 2007 edition.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

Author
Time
Post link
With their "hierachy of canon" perhaps it's canon by default, since the films, the scripts, the novelization and the radio drama do not directly contradict that.

I don't know I think it's up to us as fans to personally decide what stuff isn't contradicted that just sucks.

If Lucas puts that scene into the film, then there isn't much we can do, aside from hold on to our previous versions.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Post link
Well, the hierarchy usually goes something like this:

Movies
Book of movie
Radio drama (book of movie and radio drama might be swapped)
Novels, comics, etc all fall under here.

So basically, if it takes place in a movie, it overrides everything.

If I'm not mistaken, the Infinities line is an alternate "What if?" series. I know that they also changed the comics within the last year or so to include a logo that says "this stuff may or may not be canon". The comics use to actually write stories that would fit in canon. Now, I don't think they even bother.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: lordjedi
Well, the hierarchy usually goes something like this:

Movies
Book of movie
Radio drama (book of movie and radio drama might be swapped)
Novels, comics, etc all fall under here.

So basically, if it takes place in a movie, it overrides everything.

If I'm not mistaken, the Infinities line is an alternate "What if?" series. I know that they also changed the comics within the last year or so to include a logo that says "this stuff may or may not be canon". The comics use to actually write stories that would fit in canon. Now, I don't think they even bother.



Infinities is defenitely non-canon. They have some bizarre stuff in there. IIRC, they had one were Chewbacca crash-landed the Millenium Falcon on earth and became bigfoot.

But Go-Mer-Tonic is right. What is canon and what isn't is ultimately up to the individual and how they want to see it. So if you want to think something is or isn't true, go ahead. There are already too many concradictions to sort out.