Sign In

Star Wars is for children. Adults: Stop being selfish.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Star Wars is for children. Adults need to stop being so selfish and realize that it isn't intended for them. Lucas meant to make a story for children.

Star Wars is for children.

Yes. Most certainly.

Or how about it's for everyone.

If you can show dead younglings... you can show dead Ewoks. If you can show a man suffering third-degree burns all over his dismembered body... you can show dead Ewoks. A lot of 'em. Hell. They needed to have been Wookiee warriors that we could take seriously instead of Ewoks.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

Author
Time

The OT were kids movies made to be appreciated by adults. Jar Jar Binks and the other shit in the Phantom Menace was made to make adults puke. I don't know who AOTC and ROTS were made for. I can't understand anybody of any age liking that crap. Using it's-always-been-for-kids as an excuse for Jar Jar etc is bogus, because Jar Jar was for kids in an adults-stay-away sort of way, while the OT worked for adults. The ewoks stretched that, but they were way better than Jar Jar. They weren't just cute teddy bears. They were nasty little carnivores who wanted to eat Luke, Han and Chewie and had a real mean streak. As an adult I like them less than I did as a kid, but they don't ruin the film for me or anything. Whereas the ridiculous stuff in The Phantom Menace jars me out of the film. Jar Jar is for kids in a whole other way than the OT or even the ewoks.

Author
Time

Heh. "...jars me out of the film." Pun intended, VaderisnotHayden? ;)

Every 27th customer will get a ball-peen hammer, free!

Author
Time

ANH and ESB were masterful balances of child/adult elements. ROTJ was alike to TPM, in that it seemed to be aimed almost exclusively at children. As an adult, it's underwhelming as the climactic, final clash between Empire and Rebellion.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

Author
Time

I disagree; I think ROTJ is much darker and more ault-oriented (with a few exceptions, obviously) than a lot of ESB-smitten fans like to let on, particularly the Luke-Vader-Palpatine scenes. Luke's electrocution brought my kid cousin to tears!

Every 27th customer will get a ball-peen hammer, free!

Author
Time

I like that scene. You're right, there was some genuine emotional weight there.

But you are isolating a small piece of gold.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

Author
Time

george put the kiddy stuff in there for the kids. he left the limb losing and laser blasts be for adults. when i watched Qui-Gon get stabbed through the gut by Maul, i was a kid and freaked the hell out. Same with obi-wan slicing him in half. Hell, i thought the ROTS was pretty graphic and i was sixteen when i saw that. still freaky to see a scene like that in a star wars film.

Author
Time

Vader suffering his injuries and all the scenes afterward were great. Seeing Vader's reconstruction, the masking, and the first breath he takes will be with me forever. And seeing the technology of the OT in the PT finally, with Vader walking up to Tarkin and the Emporer was awesome.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

Author
Time

I believe the big change in style of movies started with the PG-13 rating as that really put a red flag to the summer movie.  BladeRunner was R, Star Wars was PG, Terminator was R, Raiders of the Lost Ark was PG, that sounded right.  I wouldn't take my nephews to Bladerunner, but I would take them to SW in 1977.

What PG-13 did is it forced studios to cut back to get that PG rating, and I believe that hurt many summer movies.  ESB would have been PG-13, and I believe they may have toned it down in fear of losing kids for merchandising, etc. 

Now with PG-13, there is an age # that every parent must think about, and every studio must think about, and I think that causes fear of the whats called the target audience these days.  Back in the day as a kid, I went to PG movies that may have been alittle too adult for me, but it didn't kill, and I didn't go to R movies, and I believe they were simpler times, and the movie quality reflected it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I'll take the Ewok battle over the Wookiee battle in Episode III anyday.  That looked like a frickin video game.

The cost of manufacturing more than one Costume and getting a bunch of tall actors back in the oot was cost prohibitive. at least according to Lucas.

His general idea survived into return of the jedi.  He basically outlined the bonfire thing with Wookiees celebrating around it for winning the great battle back in 1977 in a rolling stone interview.

One reviewer pointed out though that that the little guy did not win that battle with sticks and rocks, it was not won until they used Imperial weapons against the strormtroopers by capturing an AT-ST.

Do the ewoks and the wookiees share a similar evolutionary history in the star wars galaxy?  Or was Lucas using the same concept twice?  Kashyyk and Endor are virtually one and the same.  They live in the same kind of tree houses.  Are a primitive and warrior race.

Except Chewbacca is the first mate of the Millenium Falcon, is relatively intelligent and can fix spaceships as well as be a starpilot when necessary.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

Author
Time

chewy was one of the only remaining wookie's to escape kashyk once it was purged.  and i get wat ur driving at that the ewoks and wookies have some relatively in evolution. however, the wookies seem to be more advanced and intelligent.

Author
Time
I like how I could just copy/paste comments I made in another thread that would apply to this discussion instead of rewording and typing the same ideas out again. :P I might do that (no).

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

Author
Time
 (Edited)
DarkFather said:

ANH and ESB were masterful balances of child/adult elements. ROTJ was alike to TPM, in that it seemed to be aimed almost exclusively at children. As an adult, it's underwhelming as the climactic, final clash between Empire and Rebellion.

Not true at all. ROTJ is mich more adult-friendly than TPM and a very different animal. And as the climax of the struggle it's very satisfactory.

 

Author
Time
DarkFather said:

Vader suffering his injuries and all the scenes afterward were great. Seeing Vader's reconstruction, the masking, and the first breath he takes will be with me forever. And seeing the technology of the OT in the PT finally, with Vader walking up to Tarkin and the Emporer was awesome.

Really? Vader suffering his injuries was pathetic, with Hayden going "I hate you!" like a sulking kid and the bit where Kenobi chops him up being anticlimactic. Vader's reconstruction looked poorly thought-out and seeing Hayden's face going behind the mask really didn't work, because no way could that be the face or guy behind the mask. It all felt rather simplistic. And there was too much deliberate Frankenstein type vibe. Then Vader goes "Nooooo!" and the saga is stabbed in the back by the purest lameness. Tarkin's appearance was a mistake, as was the death star's. It doesn't fit to have everything be just as it is in ANH. This is twenty years before, for fuck's sake. That's just as bad as (if not worse than) having Chewie be best buddies with Yoda.

Also, the Vader reconstruction scene was inconsistent with the OT in that Vader was shown to have no problem breathing without his mask. In ROTJ we're told he'll die without his mask.

 

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Also, the Vader reconstruction scene was inconsistent with the OT in that Vader was shown to have no problem breathing without his mask. In ROTJ we're told he'll die without his mask.

He was leeching from the dark side in order to sustain himself on Mustafar. However, it wasn't a permanent solution. It took immense focus and energy. To have that focus broken for a few minutes is fatal (also explains why Vader was able to survive without his mask intact in TFU after his duel with Galen Marek). That's why the medical chamber wherein the reconstruction took place was pressurized, acting as an "iron lung room" of sorts, just as the meditation chamber we see in ESB was pressurized.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

Author
Time
 (Edited)
DarkFather said:

Also, the Vader reconstruction scene was inconsistent with the OT in that Vader was shown to have no problem breathing without his mask. In ROTJ we're told he'll die without his mask.

He was leeching from the dark side in order to sustain himself on Mustafar. However, it wasn't a permanent solution. It took immense focus and energy. To have that focus broken for a few minutes is fatal (also explains why Vader was able to survive without his mask intact in TFU after his duel with Galen Marek). That's why the medical chamber wherein the reconstruction took place was pressurized, acting as an "iron lung room" of sorts, just as the meditation chamber we see in ESB was pressurized.

EU excuses. The reality is that ROTS was at odds with the OT here, just as the PT is often at odds with the OT. Lucas should have shown Anakin having trouble breathing on Mustardfart and had the emperor get him a breathing mask there on Mustfart and Vader should have been hooked up to a breathing machine when he was being worked on afterwards. TFU was following ROTS's OT-ignoring precedent.

 

Author
Time
Vaderisnothayden said:

Also, the Vader reconstruction scene was inconsistent with the OT in that Vader was shown to have no problem breathing without his mask. In ROTJ we're told he'll die without his mask.

 

Gotta say, Anakin writhing on the table in that scene is odd as it always stays in various people's edits. He's screaming. This is a problem as he's clearly not opening his mouth. If I ever do an edit, that's gotta go and be replaced by tortured gasps and weak, dying wheezes.

That will make it more consistent with the OT, and not have that sound error when he is clearly not actually vocalizing.

Author
Time

EU excuses. The reality is that ROTS was at odds with the OT here, just as the PT is often at odds with the OT.

EU Reasons. In this case, it makes sense, I like it, so I am willing to accept it.

An EU excuse would be to say that Leia remembering her mother in detail is a result of Padme creating a Force connection with her daughter.

Gotta say, Anakin writhing on the table in that scene is odd as it always stays in various people's edits. He's screaming. This is a problem as he's clearly not opening his mouth. If I ever do an edit, that's gotta go and be replaced by tortured gasps and weak, dying wheezes.

I noticed that from the very beginning. I thought it was his face being so burned and dried out that he could barely open his mouth. You can still get a groan out as he did with your mouth only slightly open.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

Author
Time

i never really payed any attention. this is EU i'm about to reference btw. well, its mentioned somewat in ESB

novelization. supposedly he can still feel the burns on his body when he moves. In the ESB novel, it says he

expierences pain when making quick moves/actions. yes i know, weird writing.

Author
Time
DarkFather said:

EU excuses. The reality is that ROTS was at odds with the OT here, just as the PT is often at odds with the OT.

EU Reasons. In this case, it makes sense, I like it, so I am willing to accept it.

An EU excuse would be to say that Leia remembering her mother in detail is a result of Padme creating a Force connection with her daughter.

I consider that stuff bullshit designed to pretend that Lucas didnt criminally disrespect the OT in the PT. We shouldn't need EU to fix up Lucas's messes. Those messes shouldn't be there in the fist place and if they need explanations the explanations should be in the films.

Another example is the Ruusan reformation. In the OT it was said that the Jedi had been protectors of the republic for a thousand generations, which means about 25 thousand years. In the prequels Palpatine says the republic had been around for a thousand years. Big screwup. So the EU invented the Ruusan reformation and explained that Palpy was just talking about the republic since the reformation. They needed to do that or else a lot of the EU would be fucked. But them providing an explanation doesn't change the fact that Lucas screwed up. Before he wrote the prequels, he should have watched the OT very carefully, jotting down everything that was said or implied about the backhistory and then made sure to fit in his prequel story with that.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I think it's ridiculous and narrow-minded (something you have accused me of being) to dismiss all EU reasons, as long as they are logical, reasonable, and don't make any far stretches where you have to do mental acrobatics (such as Padme making a Force connection with her daughter before dying shortly after, as I've already stated).

The EU is a broad category with too many sub-categories to count, not a single object (one book, one point, one author, one excuse/reason) that any reasonable person can simply write off as all bad. Say the first ice cream you ever tried was slug flavored, and then you dismiss ice cream altogether, saying you hate it. Well, slug flavored ice cream doesn't come close to defining ice cream as a broad category. So if you were savvy to there being dozens and dozens of more flavors out there, but refuse to consider any of them, that's what I would call narrow.

As you often do, you might come back with some point about how I need to accept that others have different views. Sure you have your views, but that shouldn't stop someone from pointing out how narrow those views are, especially since you're quick to accuse others of being narrow.

In Star Wars, there have been all sorts of reasons and excuses made up from the very beginning to explain things that weren't given much detail in the films. I agree that if a film gets too lazy (as the PT did in parts), then it shouldn't be excused. But those are only a part of the puzzle.

In this case, saying that Vader's seeming breathing inconsistencies are "a mess" is plain silly. What would you have wanted, Vaderisnothayden? Right after he was scorched by fire, have Palpatine immediately run up and put an oxygen mask over his face moments after? That opens up a whole can of other questions that would need explaining then. Would you have liked Palpatine, or some clone, or a droid, to stop and take up minutes of the film to explain what I did in my post above: "So, Lord Vader, my apprentice, I see that thus far you have been leeching from the dark side in order to keep yourself alive, and if your focus is broken for more than a few minutes, it will prove fatal. We've got to get you into a pressurized surgical chamber in order for you to survive your reconstruction... etc. etc. etc." Sounds like that would slow down the pace of the film substantially. 

So tell me, Vaderisnothayden, in THIS CASE, how would you have supposedly handled it better than it was in the film?

If you cannot answer that question, and have no creative alternative of your own worked up, you're basically trying to use your opinion of "I don't like it" in a back-and-forth with nothing else to bring to the table.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

Author
Time
 (Edited)
DarkFather said:

I think it's ridiculous and narrow-minded (something you have accused me of being) to dismiss all EU reasons, as long as they are logical, reasonable, and don't make any far stretches where you have to do mental acrobatics (such as Padme making a Force connection with her daughter before dying shortly after, as I've already stated).

The EU is a broad category with too many sub-categories to count, not a single object (one book, one point, one author, one excuse/reason) that any reasonable person can simply write off as all bad. Say the first ice cream you ever tried was slug flavored, and then you dismiss ice cream altogether, saying you hate it. Well, slug flavored ice cream doesn't come close to defining ice cream as a broad category. So if you were savvy to there being dozens and dozens of more flavors out there, but refuse to consider any of them, that's what I would call narrow.

As you often do, you might come back with some point about how I need to accept that others have different views. Sure you have your views, but that shouldn't stop someone from pointing out how narrow those views are, especially since you're quick to accuse others of being narrow.

In Star Wars, there have been all sorts of reasons and excuses made up from the very beginning to explain things that weren't given much detail in the films. I agree that if a film gets too lazy (as the PT did in parts), then it shouldn't be excused. But those are only a part of the puzzle.

In this case, saying that Vader's seeming breathing inconsistencies are "a mess" is plain silly. What would you have wanted, Vaderisnothayden? Right after he was scorched by fire, have Palpatine immediately run up and put an oxygen mask over his face moments after? That opens up a whole can of other questions that would need explaining then. Would you have liked Palpatine, or some clone, or a droid, to stop and take up minutes of the film to explain what I did in my post above: "So, Lord Vader, my apprentice, I see that thus far you have been leeching from the dark side in order to keep yourself alive, and if your focus is broken for more than a few minutes, it will prove fatal. We've got to get you into a pressurized surgical chamber in order for you to survive your reconstruction... etc. etc. etc." Sounds like that would slow down the pace of the film substantially. 

So tell me, Vaderisnothayden, in THIS CASE, how would you have supposedly handled it better than it was in the film?

If you cannot answer that question, and have no creative alternative of your own worked up, you're basically trying to use your opinion of "I don't like it" in a back-and-forth with nothing else to bring to the table.

Oh quit your bullshit. There's nothing "narrow-minded" about dismissing EU reasons. The whole point about the EU is that it isn't in the films. We shouldn't have to depend on struff that's outside the films to make the films works. EU doesn't make the grade. 

And these EU explanations are people coming along after Lucas has made a mess and trying to fix his mistakes. Their fixes were not part of Lucas's original story and thus do not change the fact that he made a mess. Explanations made after the fact and not put in the film are not enough.

So I'm perfectly justified in dismissing EU explanations. Don't be so quick to call somebody narrow-minded just because they have a different view from you.

It should be clear to you now (and it should have been before) that I'm not talking about whether the EU is bad or not. That's not the issue. The issue is that explanations made after the films and not in the films are not good enough. And some of those explanations (like for why Leia could remember her mother) come off like special pleading to cover the fact that Lucas made a mess.

Having Vader spend a whole reconstruction scene without any breathing aid gave the clear message that he didn't need breathing help, which was at odds with the OT. That's what's in the films and stuff outside the films doesn't fix it. It's a mess. It's a screw-up. They should have avoided that. I don't know whether they should have plugged him into a breathing mechanism on Mustafar, but they certainly should have once he got back to Coruscant. They probably should have shown him having trouble breathing on Mustafar after being burned up.

You are very quick to dismiss my opinion as worthless back-and-forth just because I don't like the stuff you like. And you really didn't need to send me a PM ORDERING me to respond to this. 

Author
Time
 (Edited)

 

Yup. Just for kids.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

Author
Time
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Yeah!  it's just a kid's show...

happy scene

 

Come to think of it, this has always made me wonder... what exactly did the Empire do to them anyway?  I mean, when we see Stormtroopers, they're usually just firing blaster rifles.  They singe a little bit... but this?  I mean, even Darth Vader walked away from a near lava dip in better condition than this!

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.