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canofhumdingers wrote
Gaffertape wrote (in reference to the above Yode comment):
Amen. And the same goes for Palpatine, but I don't think it's quite an "enlightened" state so much as a too important to bother with fighting. Am I the only person who finds it weird that Palpatine didn't have guards stationed when Mace and the others showed up. He certainly had them in ROTJ, not to mention later in ROTS when Yoda shows up, as useless as they were.
EDIT: But I don't mind the telekenesis thing as long as it's someone really powerful using it. If every Jedi, including Luke and Ben, started whipping out telekenesis of large objects during fights all the time, that would be different. But, you know, minor things, like drawing a small, unfixed object like a lightsaber back to them is okay by me.
The Duel of the Fates ( which to this day I think is the greatest lightsaber fight on film. No CGI bull shit doubles or artsy glow stick dancing. ESB's the most dramatic, but for pure spectacle this is the king.)
Have to disagree with you here. i watched the TPM duel the other day for the first time in forever & i couldn't stand it. I've taken Olympic style fencing lessons for several years and recently started taking Kendo (japanese "samurai style" fencing) and Iaido (the art of drawing the sword and killing the antagonist, from an unassuming position - i.e. sitting on the floor eating a bowl of rice & someone attacks you). The TPM fight just made me cringe! Ewan McGreggor jumps off the ground EVERY time he blocks* a blow!!! You would NEVER do that! you'd get killed in a heartbeat! In fact, in kendo you never even allow your feet to cross (much less, leave the ground)! You keep you right foot forward & your left foot back in a very agressive stance. you move in an awkward(at first) way similar to how a child would run with a "stick pony" when playing cowboy. & you lift your feet just enough to be able to move them, effectively "gliding" across the ground. This is so that, when you run into your opponent, if you don't succeed at killing them, they can't knock you over when you run into each other. Having one foot forward & one back is a very stable/powerful position. if your feet are close together, or worse yet, in the air!!, you're a dead man. This doesn't even bring up the point of the ridiculous twirling baton lightsabers of the prequels! The OOT fights were at least reasonably believable as they were based on ACTUAL swordfighting techniques (& honetly, the ANH duel is probably most realistic). I'm a huge fan of swordfighting and can go a long way in forgiving the over-the-top fights from hollywood when they at least try to mimic something that you might actually do, but the prequels are just laughable. They remind me too much of the sword twirling you see at karate tournaments (not to knock karate, it has lots of cool aspects, but the majority of people you see using swords in a karate demo or tournament have no idea how to actually fight with one) Sorry for the rant, i've been chewing on that for a few days now...
*in my experience, you very rarely "block" in a swordfight. you either dodge altogether, which leaves your oppenent open for the brief moment they've extended to strike you, which gives you the chance to kill them. Or, you parry, which is not to block, but deflect the attck in such a way as to make an opening from which you can immediately attack. This attack is called the riposte (pronounced ruh-post or ree-post depending on who you talk to). Of course, this is mostly from my olympic style fencing experience, of which i practiced foil and epee, but really focused on sabre. I've only been taking kendo for the past 4 months or so & we're still working mainly on footwork and swinging the sword correctly. It's a very slow learning curve, like any sword art, and we probably won't begin thinking about the defense side of things for months to come.
canofhumdingers wrote:
Interesting. & i found that to be a great show of the total command of the force Vader had &, the telekinesis aspect seemed like a natural progression of the force to me. PLus it makes the duel that much more intense. After Vader has totally owned luke in the duel, he really pours on the heat, revealing that he doesn't even need the saber to defeat luke. I think that draws a neat parallel to the concept that, once someone has truely mastered the sword arts, they have mastered themselves & therefore, no longer need the sword. Of course, it's not quite in the same vein as the japanese concept seeing as Vader is evil & that concept is really referring to enlightenment in a good way.
As for the telekenisis negating the need for lightsabers, i don't think that's necessarily true. Take, as an example, the jedi knight video games. you can do some pretty amazing force-feats, but you can't do them all at once, or forever. you have mana, which is essentially "force stamina" the more intense the force action, the more of this "stamina meter" you use & the longer you have to wait for it to recharge before using it again. That sort of how i always envisoned using the force, even before those games came out. You can't do everything all the time. the force is a source of energy, & just like our physical body, you can only do so much for so long with it before you need to rest & recuperate. &, just like our physical body, the more you train in the force & the more you "work out" (for lack of a better phrase) with it, the stronger you become & the more you can do before giving out.
edit: this is also why i feel yoda should never be seen with a lightsaber!! He has reached such a high level of "oneness" with the force that he essentially IS the ultimate samurai. He has transcended the need for physical weapons.
Have to disagree with you here. i watched the TPM duel the other day for the first time in forever & i couldn't stand it. I've taken Olympic style fencing lessons for several years and recently started taking Kendo (japanese "samurai style" fencing) and Iaido (the art of drawing the sword and killing the antagonist, from an unassuming position - i.e. sitting on the floor eating a bowl of rice & someone attacks you). The TPM fight just made me cringe! Ewan McGreggor jumps off the ground EVERY time he blocks* a blow!!! You would NEVER do that! you'd get killed in a heartbeat! In fact, in kendo you never even allow your feet to cross (much less, leave the ground)! You keep you right foot forward & your left foot back in a very agressive stance. you move in an awkward(at first) way similar to how a child would run with a "stick pony" when playing cowboy. & you lift your feet just enough to be able to move them, effectively "gliding" across the ground. This is so that, when you run into your opponent, if you don't succeed at killing them, they can't knock you over when you run into each other. Having one foot forward & one back is a very stable/powerful position. if your feet are close together, or worse yet, in the air!!, you're a dead man. This doesn't even bring up the point of the ridiculous twirling baton lightsabers of the prequels! The OOT fights were at least reasonably believable as they were based on ACTUAL swordfighting techniques (& honetly, the ANH duel is probably most realistic). I'm a huge fan of swordfighting and can go a long way in forgiving the over-the-top fights from hollywood when they at least try to mimic something that you might actually do, but the prequels are just laughable. They remind me too much of the sword twirling you see at karate tournaments (not to knock karate, it has lots of cool aspects, but the majority of people you see using swords in a karate demo or tournament have no idea how to actually fight with one) Sorry for the rant, i've been chewing on that for a few days now...
*in my experience, you very rarely "block" in a swordfight. you either dodge altogether, which leaves your oppenent open for the brief moment they've extended to strike you, which gives you the chance to kill them. Or, you parry, which is not to block, but deflect the attck in such a way as to make an opening from which you can immediately attack. This attack is called the riposte (pronounced ruh-post or ree-post depending on who you talk to). Of course, this is mostly from my olympic style fencing experience, of which i practiced foil and epee, but really focused on sabre. I've only been taking kendo for the past 4 months or so & we're still working mainly on footwork and swinging the sword correctly. It's a very slow learning curve, like any sword art, and we probably won't begin thinking about the defense side of things for months to come.
Shimraa wrote:
yeah but they look cool, and thats the best thing about them
Obi Jeewhyen wrote:
I will say that I agree almost wholeheartedly with canofhumdingers' comments re the ESB lightsaber duel.
The thing that wrecks it for me, and wrecks the Force for me in general, is all that wonderful control Vader exhibits over the entire duel is mocked and made pointless when he reveals that, at any time, he can simply start throwing brick-a-brak around with his telekenesis. Pfft, why have duels at all?
Sorry, but I hate the telekenesis aspect of the Force that was grafted onto it for Empire Strikes Back. Kinda makes things a little too easy, if Jedi have to power to move all objects at will. What would they need lightsabers for? Or any other skill for that matter? It's too easy, and too cheesy. Personally, I'd like a little less Carrie in my Star Wars.
yeah but they look cool, and thats the best thing about them
Gaffertape wrote:
Yeah, I never had a problem with the original duel from Star Wars, and I had no idea anybody else did until Lucas himself started complaining about it. It always made perfect sense to me in the way they were fighting. And the sequels just built on that and made it slightly more intense. But you get to the prequels, and it's all just crazy, especially the one in ROTS, which is another reason why that movie is becoming, to me, the worst prequel.
canofhumdingers wrote:
i completely agree that the lightsaber duels should not be totally grounded in real sword fighting. As you say, it is, afterall, Star Wars. Not to mention lightsabers are unlike any type of sword ever made, opening the doors to all sorts of potential. add to this the fact that these are the weapons of Jedi, & you have the makings for some pretty fantastic fights. But that doesn't change the fact that there are some basic rules in close combat that are standard no matter what. one such example is, when you intend to block/deflect a powerful blow, you better be firmly planted or you're going to be dead.
I think ESB is a PERFECT example of a fantastic fight that, while completely impossible in the real world, is totally believable for the world presented on screen. The things they do make sense. when Luke is taking the full force of Vader's assault as he gets backed out onto the catwalk, he cowers down to get his center of gravity low to absorb the impact. He's certainly not jumping. While the techniques and moves are not textbook swordfighting, they (like many things in the OOT) have some basis in the world we actually live in which makes them familiar and acceptable, despite their fantastic nature. In fact, to me the ESB duel is a masterpiece of sorts just from a technical, stagecombat point of view. Anyone who's got some knowledge on the subject will quickly pick up on some subtleties (sp?) that are really neat. The way Luke fights shows an aggresive and courageous person with talent, but a severe lack of proper training/experience; which is exactly what his character is supposed to be at that point. Vader on the other hand is clealry a master and is in completle control of the fight the whole time. He overwhelms luke on a whim as he tries to intimidate luke into the dark side. But when luke begins to give in to his anger, vader backs off and takes the full brunt of luke's rage, clearly hoping he'll turn. It's also made clear that Vader's purpose is not to kill Luke, but to turn him as he has multiple opportunities to dispatch his son, but always hesitates just long enough, or swings just wide enough to allow Luke to escape certain death. & a moment that i love is, when Luke has one brilliant strike that actually lands, Vader immediately stops the fight by taking control once again and severing Lukes hand with the very next blow! To sum it up, luke is skillful, but unrefined; while vader is cool, powerful, and in total control. & i love that b/c, as anyone who has dueled someone far more skillful than themself can attest, it is incredibley intimidating when your opponent has clearly taken control of the fight and is working you into exactly the position they desire. & it's even more intimidating when they have done this, have the chance to beat you, but don't b/c they know they can keep you in that place and continue working you until you essentially defeat yourself.
Yeah, I never had a problem with the original duel from Star Wars, and I had no idea anybody else did until Lucas himself started complaining about it. It always made perfect sense to me in the way they were fighting. And the sequels just built on that and made it slightly more intense. But you get to the prequels, and it's all just crazy, especially the one in ROTS, which is another reason why that movie is becoming, to me, the worst prequel.
Obi Jeewhyen wrote:
Hahahah, I always thought the short duel from the original Star Wars was not only the most realistic, but the most dramatic. (Ok, Ben's twirl was like WTF, but I love it).
But the Ep. 1 duel looks real cool, and I can't deny that. Oh, not realistic?!?! Not a standard that I hold anything in the prequels to.
Wesyeed wrote (in reference to canofhumdinger's original post about kendo/fencing):
Wow deja vu. about 5 years ago someone said pretty much the same thing to me about how unrealistic the fighting in the pt is compared to the Ot. I agreed to some extent as far as the bouncing weightless cgi doubles are concerned but the realistic enough fencing thing I think is pretty moot when we're talking about star wars with jedi flying all over the place. Vader throws his saber at luke in rotj; I doubt a swordsman who doesn't have force powers would do that in real life. It's of course supposed to be cool and spectacular rather than perfectly accurate. But The fighting in AotC is the worst of them all I have to say. You can just tell absolutely none of the jedi have had any real martial arts training with a weapon whatsover. And I don't know the first thing about fencing so I'm have no idea what to look for as far as wrong footing and such is concerned, It's just the beauty in the well coreographed and intense lightsaber duel I admire that really shows how the jedi fought in their prime. Reality's the last thing on my mind while watching star wars.
Hahahah, I always thought the short duel from the original Star Wars was not only the most realistic, but the most dramatic. (Ok, Ben's twirl was like WTF, but I love it).
But the Ep. 1 duel looks real cool, and I can't deny that. Oh, not realistic?!?! Not a standard that I hold anything in the prequels to.
Wesyeed wrote (in reference to canofhumdinger's original post about kendo/fencing):
Wow deja vu. about 5 years ago someone said pretty much the same thing to me about how unrealistic the fighting in the pt is compared to the Ot. I agreed to some extent as far as the bouncing weightless cgi doubles are concerned but the realistic enough fencing thing I think is pretty moot when we're talking about star wars with jedi flying all over the place. Vader throws his saber at luke in rotj; I doubt a swordsman who doesn't have force powers would do that in real life. It's of course supposed to be cool and spectacular rather than perfectly accurate. But The fighting in AotC is the worst of them all I have to say. You can just tell absolutely none of the jedi have had any real martial arts training with a weapon whatsover. And I don't know the first thing about fencing so I'm have no idea what to look for as far as wrong footing and such is concerned, It's just the beauty in the well coreographed and intense lightsaber duel I admire that really shows how the jedi fought in their prime. Reality's the last thing on my mind while watching star wars.
canofhumdingers wrote:
i completely agree that the lightsaber duels should not be totally grounded in real sword fighting. As you say, it is, afterall, Star Wars. Not to mention lightsabers are unlike any type of sword ever made, opening the doors to all sorts of potential. add to this the fact that these are the weapons of Jedi, & you have the makings for some pretty fantastic fights. But that doesn't change the fact that there are some basic rules in close combat that are standard no matter what. one such example is, when you intend to block/deflect a powerful blow, you better be firmly planted or you're going to be dead.
I think ESB is a PERFECT example of a fantastic fight that, while completely impossible in the real world, is totally believable for the world presented on screen. The things they do make sense. when Luke is taking the full force of Vader's assault as he gets backed out onto the catwalk, he cowers down to get his center of gravity low to absorb the impact. He's certainly not jumping. While the techniques and moves are not textbook swordfighting, they (like many things in the OOT) have some basis in the world we actually live in which makes them familiar and acceptable, despite their fantastic nature. In fact, to me the ESB duel is a masterpiece of sorts just from a technical, stagecombat point of view. Anyone who's got some knowledge on the subject will quickly pick up on some subtleties (sp?) that are really neat. The way Luke fights shows an aggresive and courageous person with talent, but a severe lack of proper training/experience; which is exactly what his character is supposed to be at that point. Vader on the other hand is clealry a master and is in completle control of the fight the whole time. He overwhelms luke on a whim as he tries to intimidate luke into the dark side. But when luke begins to give in to his anger, vader backs off and takes the full brunt of luke's rage, clearly hoping he'll turn. It's also made clear that Vader's purpose is not to kill Luke, but to turn him as he has multiple opportunities to dispatch his son, but always hesitates just long enough, or swings just wide enough to allow Luke to escape certain death. & a moment that i love is, when Luke has one brilliant strike that actually lands, Vader immediately stops the fight by taking control once again and severing Lukes hand with the very next blow! To sum it up, luke is skillful, but unrefined; while vader is cool, powerful, and in total control. & i love that b/c, as anyone who has dueled someone far more skillful than themself can attest, it is incredibley intimidating when your opponent has clearly taken control of the fight and is working you into exactly the position they desire. & it's even more intimidating when they have done this, have the chance to beat you, but don't b/c they know they can keep you in that place and continue working you until you essentially defeat yourself.
Obi Jeewhyen wrote:
I will say that I agree almost wholeheartedly with canofhumdingers' comments re the ESB lightsaber duel.
The thing that wrecks it for me, and wrecks the Force for me in general, is all that wonderful control Vader exhibits over the entire duel is mocked and made pointless when he reveals that, at any time, he can simply start throwing brick-a-brak around with his telekenesis. Pfft, why have duels at all?
Sorry, but I hate the telekenesis aspect of the Force that was grafted onto it for Empire Strikes Back. Kinda makes things a little too easy, if Jedi have to power to move all objects at will. What would they need lightsabers for? Or any other skill for that matter? It's too easy, and too cheesy. Personally, I'd like a little less Carrie in my Star Wars.
canofhumdingers wrote:
Interesting. & i found that to be a great show of the total command of the force Vader had &, the telekinesis aspect seemed like a natural progression of the force to me. PLus it makes the duel that much more intense. After Vader has totally owned luke in the duel, he really pours on the heat, revealing that he doesn't even need the saber to defeat luke. I think that draws a neat parallel to the concept that, once someone has truely mastered the sword arts, they have mastered themselves & therefore, no longer need the sword. Of course, it's not quite in the same vein as the japanese concept seeing as Vader is evil & that concept is really referring to enlightenment in a good way.
As for the telekenisis negating the need for lightsabers, i don't think that's necessarily true. Take, as an example, the jedi knight video games. you can do some pretty amazing force-feats, but you can't do them all at once, or forever. you have mana, which is essentially "force stamina" the more intense the force action, the more of this "stamina meter" you use & the longer you have to wait for it to recharge before using it again. That sort of how i always envisoned using the force, even before those games came out. You can't do everything all the time. the force is a source of energy, & just like our physical body, you can only do so much for so long with it before you need to rest & recuperate. &, just like our physical body, the more you train in the force & the more you "work out" (for lack of a better phrase) with it, the stronger you become & the more you can do before giving out.
edit: this is also why i feel yoda should never be seen with a lightsaber!! He has reached such a high level of "oneness" with the force that he essentially IS the ultimate samurai. He has transcended the need for physical weapons.
Gaffertape wrote (in reference to the above Yode comment):
Amen. And the same goes for Palpatine, but I don't think it's quite an "enlightened" state so much as a too important to bother with fighting. Am I the only person who finds it weird that Palpatine didn't have guards stationed when Mace and the others showed up. He certainly had them in ROTJ, not to mention later in ROTS when Yoda shows up, as useless as they were.
EDIT: But I don't mind the telekenesis thing as long as it's someone really powerful using it. If every Jedi, including Luke and Ben, started whipping out telekenesis of large objects during fights all the time, that would be different. But, you know, minor things, like drawing a small, unfixed object like a lightsaber back to them is okay by me.
