Star Wars could have been a modern day Iliad. — Page 4

there is no  way he scared himelf like that on purpose. Besides that is just one minor point of the whole anakin/palpatine thing that makes no sense.

Just ten seconds before he was wanting palpatine to stand trial then all the sudden he just falls to his knees and woships hi,.  Mind you not just worships  just anyone but  worships the man who has been trying to murder his wife  for almost ten years. the same wife he  says he turned to the dark side to save. SO he trust the man whos been trying to murder her  to save her life? Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

Trying to argue anything in the PT  makes sense is a futile effort.

Anakin Craved power. So much that he believed he could keep people from dying. That's why he trusted Palpatine. Anakin truly believed that Palps would give him the power he desperatly desired to own.

So, in the end, he could care less if palpantine was trying to kill Padme for the last ten or so years. A perfect example of thick headeness.

WhatsMyName said:

Anakin Craved power. So much that he believed he could keep people from dying. That's why he trusted Palpatine. Anakin truly believed that Palps would give him the power he desperatly desired to own.

So, in the end, he could care less if palpantine was trying to kill Padme for the last ten or so years. A perfect example of thick headeness.

sure he did...is that why  10 seconds after  turning to the dark side   palpatine  goes from telling anakin he knows how to show him to save padmes life  to admiting that he doesnt even know how?   riiiiiiiiiight! A perfect example of pathetic writing is more like it.

are you  actually defending that garbage? You might be at the wrong site if so.

Anakin didn't know Palpatine was "trying to kill Padme for 10 years". There was never talk about "killing the queen" in TPM aside from something Qui-Gon said, and the assassination attempt was never shown to have been ordered by Palpatine - Nute Gunray made the demand, the Dooku agreed to execute it.

Palpatine obviously knew it was happening, but we're not told at any point that he had already planned at that moment for her and Anakin to fall in love - and that's the real problem. It's not that Sidious is dumb, we just have no idea what he does and wants at any given point - I guess he does some sort of combination of Xanatos/Batman Gambit and Indy Ploy, but we're never told where the one ends and the other begins, and THAT's a sign of piss-poor writing (although it could've been brilliant ambiguity in a different scenario).

At any rate, Anakin doesn't know it at the time. He might've gotten a clue as soon as he's ordered to go kill the Separatist leaders, but again, never brought up anywhere. Is the "Sith lord who manipulates the senate" ever established as the Separatist overlord by the good guys?

He goes over to Palpatine's side as soon as he kills Windu - he probably realizes he's fucked himself over with the Jedi after that and there's no going back, and now he has the chance to save Padme - so he sees no other possibility than to join Palpatine.

Prior to that, there was a short conflict in him when he learned that Palpatine was the evil Sith Lord, between having him arrested, or using him to save Padmé; first he went with the former, then after that silent tower scene, changed his mind.

Make sense. Where the film failed was establishing Anakin's friendship with Palpatine and distrust with the Jedi better, so that when he decided to trust Palpatine on the Jedi's "betrayal", it came off as actually believable, not a completely random ass-pull plot device.

Palpatine only mentioned a LEGEND about some Sith lord who once could save people from death - then when he was getted face-fried, he kinda said "I have the power to save your wife from dying" - could that be construed (by Anakin) as a desperate hyperbole? I dunno. At any rate, when things have calmed down and Anakin knees before him, Palpatine basically tells the same story from before - one has discovered the secret a long time ago, and now they can try and figure it out again.

Whether his face got force-fried, or he let it happen on purpose, is left intentionally unambiguous, so you have no way of saying that "there's no way he could've done it on purpose".

When he got force-pushed by Yoda and showed his pants for a brief moment, I always thought it was supposed to hint at the Emperor's "vulnerability" and the fact that there's still that "man behind the curtain" of his theatralic self-display. No debate, that shot has a huge fat NARM written all over it :D

So yea, you compare the old movies to literary classics with lengthy, complex language, and you don't even understand the prequels enough to criticize these huge clusterfucks. Hey, dude... time to stop arguing for a while, okay? Time to RETIRE! You know... hang up that ooool'... hat...

Who u talking to? Me or him?

And yes, all good points.

And, i don't think we can actually criticize the writing of Sidious do to the fact that he is set up to be a mysterious figure in star wars. We don't know where he came from, what he plans, how he does what he does and how he became a Sith in the first place.

WhatsMyName said:

Who u talking to? Me or him?

And yes, all good points.

And, i don't think we can actually criticize the writing of Sidious do to the fact that he is set up to be a mysterious figure in star wars. We don't know where he came from, what he plans, how he does what he does and how he became a Sith in the first place.

 

I was debunking his points, so to him obviously ;)

They could've easily made a plot where Sidious plans out the political intrigue in ways that aren't directly shown but are fairly understandable, and then Anakin does something to impress him and he seduces him or whatever... the way they did it, with him POSSIBLY planning EVERYTHING ahead incl. Anakin's birth, him falling in love with Padme on the Naboo trip, the pregnancy threat, and so on, I don't see how that can't be criticized.

When writing a story, choosing certain kinds of narrative forms, or tropes, will always result in heightened difficulty and risk of cheapening the quality.

Including a mysteriously working "higher power" that "guides" the heroes and may step in at critical or trivial moments? Risk - you can use that to excuse any plot hole or questionabl action. Any situation of tension can be questioned by bringing up the lack of the power's intervention.

Over-powered main character, or villain? Self-explanatory. Success = whatever, he's stronger than everyone. Failure or tension = um that feels contrived.

Omniscient chessmaster "behind it all"? It happened because see where it led the story. He knew it all along. Failure? Well, can't calculate EVERYTHING ahead, canya? Stuff happens.

Unreliable narrator? Again, just add a lot of confusion and you can excuse anything that doesn't fit in as lies, or hallucinations. Easy. But the stuff that fits in, that's justified, because see, it was part of the narrator's story!

Lucas took that risk with the PT by making the Emperor's scheme this chessmaster gambit - and fell flat on his face.

My take on it, is that Anakin wasn't one his mind till after the end of TPM.

He was trying to find ways to overwhelm the Jedi, Invasion of Naboo making it legal. Which this is what i think how he originally intended to be the beginning of the end for the Jedi.

Once Anakin showed up and saw his potential, whether he's heard of the "Prophecy" or not, he knew he'd be a powerful tool for him. I don't think he had a specific plan to turn him. I do think it was his goal.

:Whether his face got force-fried, or he let it happen on purpose, is left intentionally unambiguous, so you have no way of saying that "there's no way he could've done it on purpose".

Yeah..to hell with a little thing like COMMON SENSE. Just cause it's a sci-fi movie I guess we need to leave our expectations of   good film making  at the door.

I am sorry but your entire post just oozes with "Im a PT fan  and OT fans  cant  see past the surface to understand what they are viewing"

you dont have to look past the surface with these pos films.  anyone with any sense of  what a good film is is slaped in the face within 5 minutes with the pathetic story telling and dialouge.

I am a PT fan, however the OT is better IMO. And i'm not saying that at all. I'm trying to explain my take on the whole situation. You're the one taking it personally

@hailjorge

"I am sorry but your entire post just oozes with 'Im a PT fan  and OT fans  cant  see past the surface to understand what they are viewing'"

Wait, you actually took my post as a PT defense? Do you expect me to believe that you were sitting there guiding your thumb through the text like a drooling retard while muttering "hey what that? i dun uderstand what he says... guess he#s defending prequels? duih"???

"and you don't even understand the prequels enough to criticize these huge clusterfucks"

"Lucas took that risk with the PT by making the Emperor's scheme this chessmaster gambit - and fell flat on his face."

Yea, just OOZES with PT apologetics...

"you dont have to look past the surface with these pos films."

Who ever said anything about "looking past the surface"? If anything, you're the one making up shit so suit your points - somehow Anakin is supposed to know that Palpatine once approved of Padme's assassination, and let's not forget your INANE over-interpretation of the cave scene in ESB. Yea... SHAKESPEREAN.

Doesn't take a genius not to wonder why Anakin stay with Palps after helping to kill off Windu - nothing to look past the surface, it is ON The surface.

Basically, it's like this: these films are incredibly stupid, but you're too stupid to criticize them for that.

:: Warned for personal attack - M

"Yeah..to hell with a little thing like COMMON SENSE. Just cause it's a sci-fi movie I guess we need to leave our expectations of   good film making  at the door."

Common sense? Palpatine knows that Mace will use his "lightsaber block" and what the beams will do to his face. Or he can actually change appearence like any other archetypal double-faced villain, so he lets himself be transformed into monster mash under the guise of the lightning beams causing that.

That's your "common sense" right there. The film doesn't explain it, although in this case, the expression "leaving it ambiguous" probably doesn't fit anywhere as well as "throwing a contrived, unnecessary plot device at the audience and not bothering to elaborate".

I never said that "ambiguity" was any good in the film. But your assertion that "no way could that've been intended by Palpatine" is downright asinine.

WhatsMyName said:

My take on it, is that Anakin wasn't one his mind till after the end of TPM.

He was trying to find ways to overwhelm the Jedi, Invasion of Naboo making it legal. Which this is what i think how he originally intended to be the beginning of the end for the Jedi.

Once Anakin showed up and saw his potential, whether he's heard of the "Prophecy" or not, he knew he'd be a powerful tool for him. I don't think he had a specific plan to turn him. I do think it was his goal.

Well, Palpatine sure was impressed with a kid accidentally blowing up... oh wait, of course... Anakin was guided by the force.

Yea, you know, it could work... I mean, he kinda does imply in ROTS that he was behind the inoculate conception, but only very subtly.

Maybe he did an "Indy Ploy" with Anakin? Like, "hey, Padmé needs excuse protectors, how about I bring Anakin into the scene"? But then he's like "ahhh, hehehehehe". After that, lots of convenient things started happening - I guess Palpatine got pretty lucky.

I don't see anything to back up your Naboo theory. He wanted to invade or control the planet. Next? Nothing in the movies tells anything about it. Apparently, it SOMEHOW contirbutes to the Separatist movement (TF got pissed off and so on), and it gets Palpatine into chancellor position (could've waited a few years for reelection if he could manipulate votes, eh?). What you said is pretty much pulled out of the thin air rip.

I just figured Palpatine managed to trick the most incompetent government in the history of fiction. 

twooffour said:

WhatsMyName said:

My take on it, is that Anakin wasn't one his mind till after the end of TPM.

He was trying to find ways to overwhelm the Jedi, Invasion of Naboo making it legal. Which this is what i think how he originally intended to be the beginning of the end for the Jedi.

Once Anakin showed up and saw his potential, whether he's heard of the "Prophecy" or not, he knew he'd be a powerful tool for him. I don't think he had a specific plan to turn him. I do think it was his goal.

 

I don't see anything to back up your Naboo theory. He wanted to invade or control the planet. Next? Nothing in the movies tells anything about it. Apparently, it SOMEHOW contirbutes to the Separatist movement (TF got pissed off and so on), and it gets Palpatine into chancellor position (could've waited a few years for reelection if he could manipulate votes, eh?). What you said is pretty much pulled out of the thin air rip.

 well, of course i'm pulling this out of thin air. this is just my take on it. He wanted to overwhelm the Jedi, so taking over Naboo and the Jedi not being able to do anything about it just seemed like an excellent ploy to me.

Everything i'm saying is just my opinion on what lead up to Palpatine turning Anakin. Not saying that, that's how it is.

It makes no sense to anyone but GL. The plot of the PT is so lacking in common sense that it cannot exist in any plane of reality. You are forced to accept that it is just a movie and cannot suspend your disbelief in watching it. With this knowledge you realize you are seeing something artificially written and this is the ultimate violation of cinema. With the OT, you don't see actors standing in front of a green screen speaking forced, unnatural dialogue written by a man who has no connection with reality, you see a world you are convinced exists in the same reality as we do, despite having fantastical elements. Even Jedi has this edge of realism over the PT. Palpatine could not one step of his convoluted, irrational grand scheme within the constructs of the OT. It only works as fiction written by a schizophrenic. Therefore, the entire PT is an unintentional work of surrealism.

twooffour said:

Just wonderin', how would that be supposed to go down? Palpatine like needed an army the Jedi trusted while fighting in a giant galactic war so they could assassinated in the middle of the fight all at once, right? How was the Naboo thing going to lead to that?

 Overwhelming the Jedi. They couldn't do anything about it if it was made the legal. the invasion that is. And if the Senate voted to take it back through war, the Jedi would have been called upon to help when they are not suppose to be generals in the first place.

Naboo would've been the first among other planets that prlly had been on Palps list.

This is all spectulation. I'm not saying i know it all. Its just how i look at it and say, "That's why he was doing that!" By no means am i right about what i say, just opinionated.

Say we had a US senator who decided to become president by invading his own state through a shady corporation controlled by the same senator under a poorly disguised alias, inciting destabilized confidence in the current presidency and calling for the election of a new senator. Then, after his second term is almost up, he declares war against himself by having this same shady corporation build an army to help a sham organization secede from the US, allowing him to stay in power unconstitutionally and get him an army composed of genetically engineered beings. Then he kills his own allies years later (right after the war ends) and declares the US to be an empire headed by him, and then have no resistance against him for almost twenty years. Does that make sense to anybody? Because that is what happens in the PT.

That pretty much sums it up

Oh yeah. I forgot to mention that Palpatine kidnaps himself. Plus, it must be very expensive to wage a war against yourself when there is no real reason to do so. He should have just bought himself a speedboat with that wasted money.

But some things do. Some do.

It's not my fault the PT is so horribly written. That's why SW cannot be the modern day Iliad.