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Star Wars could have been a modern day Iliad.

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Or a King Arthur, Beowulf, or Odyssey.

Star Wars already incorporates many myth-like qualities. To those thinking that its too ridiculous to be taken that serious. How is Star Wars anymore ridiculous than a magical lady who lives in a lake or a a quarrel among goddesses to determine the most beautiful that starts a war?

Unfortunately we have a creator who accepted help from others to cover up his flaws as a storyteller then forgot that he needed that help. The more creative control Lucas had over Star wars the worse it got. The biggest example is the Prequels. They could have been a more dark, mature, serious, nuanced story in the same vein as a Shakespearean or Greek tragedy. Instead we got a pseudo-cartoon that pandered to children. The Original movies appealed to both adults and children, there was no reason to just aim for children. 

Lucas failed to see the potential of his own creation. If he took it more seriously and passionately. Hundreds or even thousands of years from now they could be talking about Star Wars like we talk about Shakespeare or Homer today. 

It fills me with regret that the legacy of Star Wars have been cut short due to one man who basically stumbled into potentially the greatest saga ever told.      

 

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I agree. The PT destroyed the SW saga beyond rehabilitation. The franchise can never be restored in the same way an amputee's limbs cannot suddenly grow back. 

On a side note, GL could have been a redneck NASCAR driver. Just think about that.

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sexyloser said:

... How is Star Wars anymore ridiculous than a magical lady who lives in a lake?...

Yes! Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

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^ one of the best lines ever.

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I have always considered  a new  hope and empire to be the gone with the wind and cassablanca of sci-fi/fantasy films.  Return of the jedi  was a good film and better than the prequel films but it droped the ball   when it  was handed off from episode 5. Lucas is to blame   for this. Same as he is to blame for the PT mess he unleashed on us.

 

I really do not think it is a lack of talant on lucas part.  American graffatti  and a new hope were awsome films. I do  acknowledge  that both  gary kurtz and marcia lucas were there and they contributed a lot to those films. Lucas  was the  story  man and kurtz and  marcia  fine tuned ideas  and  kept it all in line.  Without them lucas just ran wild and everything became a  mess.  We see the results of that mess.

 

return of the jedi gets a pass. not cause it is an ot films but because it is JUST good enough  to where you  dont hate it or make  fun of it.  Not untill the SE  anyways. The  new indy film and the pt films  are so bad  you have to be blinded with  bias  or just flat out have  no  taste or  desire for a good story.

If I were lucas right hand man I would  tell him to  just remake the pt films.  say you  made the first set for  kids cause the back story was so serious   kids would have been put off by it  and then say you  are now making the version you always wanted to do  for adults.  Hell   he will just stand to gain another billion dollars  and  he  would earn  his respect back from  fans and peers. Hire a  great director....hire lawenrace kasdan to write  the story and gary kurtz to  produce.  take it back to what made the originals so great.  let the fans have  two   versions fo the pt films. one for kids and one for serious  adult fans who  want  a real back story to anakin skywalker.

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haljordan28 said:

If I were lucas right hand man I would  tell him to  just remake the pt films.  say you  made the first set for  kids cause the back story was so serious   kids would have been put off by it  and then say you  are now making the version you always wanted to do  for adults.  Hell   he will just stand to gain another billion dollars  and  he  would earn  his respect back from  fans and peers. Hire a  great director....hire lawenrace kasdan to write  the story and gary kurtz to  produce.  take it back to what made the originals so great.  let the fans have  two   versions fo the pt films. one for kids and one for serious  adult fans who  want  a real back story to anakin skywalker.

He would laugh in your face, and fire you. He has no reason to remake the prequels, they made a as much money as if they had been masterpieces.

George is businessman with an ego, he isn't gonna remake something that made him millions.

All he'll do is replace the CGI every 10 years.

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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He has every reason to remake the prequels. from a buisness stand point it would guarntee him another billion dollars in profit and it could  regain him  the respect he has lost.  it is a win win situation.  Nothing to lose from remaking them and everything to gain.

 

How is that not a good move on his part?

 

as far as your quote goes

 

""The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won't last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you'll be able to project it on a 20' by 40' screen with perfect quality. I think it's the director's prerogative, not the studio's to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas"

 

this is the same Lucas who testified in front of the senate 20+ years ago that directors should leave original  prints alone and  should not go back and  rework history. He was one of the major influences  against  the coloring of  giligans island back when ted turner was  turning the black and white ones into color.  Funny how  now that he can make a profit  from it his view changes. He has damaged his reputation so much  it might be beyond repair. He went from someone who was going to go down in history  as  a legend of film making to a laughing stock and a liar. If I were him I would  do anything and everything to  fix that.  Cause the only thing we can take to our graves with us is that which we leave behind. He has ruined his legacy.  Unless you  are a 10 yr old kid  with a jar jar poster.

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haljordan28 said:

He has every reason to remake the prequels. from a buisness stand point it would guarntee him another billion dollars in profit and it could  regain him  the respect he has lost.  it is a win win situation.  Nothing to lose from remaking them and everything to gain.

 

How is that not a good move on his part?

 

George won already.

1. The films made a shit load of money

2. A lot of people actually liked them

3. He had complete control over them, and remaking them would result in him admitting that he made an error. He fucks with the OT, because that wasn't his "true vision", they were a big group effort. I really don't think his ego would allow him to say he didn't do good enough on the PT.

The only thing that is really destroying his reputation is his countless revisions, and the fact that they are the ones getting released.

 

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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just ebcause they made a lot of money and people liked them  has nothing to do with looking it at from a buisness point of view.   It is a guarnteed 700 million to a billion dollar profit for him.  Someone walks in and says I will gaurntee you will make close to a billion dollars to do this with little to no risk  then it make  perfect sense to do it.  no one walks away from that kind of money. He will never do it but from a buisness perspective  it makes perfect sense to do it.  As far as the OT not being his original vision...that is more  BS spewed from Lucas mouth.   Just like he always intended on greedo  shooting first.  ANother flat out lie on his part.

 

MOST all the changes made  were BS  changes that   had no purpose at all.  Luke screaming as he fell. I guess that was  an original vision? Vader changing his line in episode 5  walking down the hall   where he sayd  "bing my shuttle" changing it to some   bullshit that makes no sense  and pasting in a scene  from episode 6. Guess that was an original vision?  Boba fett flirting with dancers at jabbas palace..i guess   technology in 83   couldnt allow him to do that back then lol.  ANyone who believes   a thing out of that worthless  pos  is as big of a moron as lucas is.

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Even if the original SW trilogy were restored to pre-97 form, The PT will always be there like a blown-off limb. There is no hope that SW will be redeemed because we honor the wrong person for creating it. Based on site consensus, Kurtz is the real person that made SW great, not Lucas. Three thousand years from now, we will not revere SW like the Iliad and the Odyssey sole because of how messed up the prequels were. Kurtz should have stayed on for the prequels; they would have not been the painful negations of the OT that they are now.

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haljordan28 said:

MOST all the changes made  were BS  changes that   had no purpose at all.  Luke screaming as he fell. I guess that was  an original vision? Vader changing his line in episode 5  walking down the hall   where he sayd  "bing my shuttle" changing it to some   bullshit that makes no sense  and pasting in a scene  from episode 6. Guess that was an original vision?  Boba fett flirting with dancers at jabbas palace..i guess   technology in 83   couldnt allow him to do that back then lol.  ANyone who believes   a thing out of that worthless  pos  is as big of a moron as lucas is.

Not only are you preaching to the choir, you're preaching to fellow preachers.

 

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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Haljordan, I'm usually a very mild mannered and patient person, but for the love of God, please listen to this young filmmaker!

That's like if I said that someone should walk up to Sean Connery, tell him to do a remake of Never Say Never Again, then make Dragonheart 3, and then reenact Outland with a bunch of sock puppets! Believe me, I've tried ;).

There is no difference at all between what you just said and what I just stated above!

 

 

Just want a little perspective is all.

 

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generalfrevious said:

 The PT will always be there like a blown-off limb.

We could get some supervillian to make a Forget-the-Prequels/Death-Ray.

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They cannot be forgotten as long as LFL insists it is half of the SW franchise.

 

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Ziggy Stardust said:

Haljordan, I'm usually a very mild mannered and patient person, but for the love of God, please listen to this young filmmaker!

That's like if I said that someone should walk up to Sean Connery, tell him to do a remake of Never Say Never Again, then make Dragonheart 3, and then reenact Outland with a bunch of sock puppets! Believe me, I've tried ;).

There is no difference at all between what you just said and what I just stated above!

 

 

Just want a little perspective is all.

 

I believe there is a difference.

 

I do not believe lucas original vision for the PT films is what he put on film. I think he had an advisor telling him  the proper   things to do to make the most money  off toys and things of that nature.

 

I have a lucas interview from the mid 80s where he says  the prequel films will not be kid friendly  and they will be much more serious. Lucas sold pixar for 2 million dollars.  it is common knowledge after his divorce he was hurting for money.  Every action he took with the PT films just points in the direction of what a GOOD advisor would tell him to do. I would have done the same and told him the same. the money from toys  over shadows the money from films. He had to make the films kid friendly  and guarntee   toys would sell.  take a minute and think about the things he did  with the pt.

 

He made the hero in episode 1  a child. he made a jar jar character  for the kids.  comic reliefe that ONLY children would find  funny.  He had to make sure he brought in a new generation of kid fans.   if he had made the  pt films serious like he once claimed  kids would have been bored with it and hated it.  Lucas also said yrs ago that  x-wings would be the premier ship in the pt films.  he said the rebels were poor and not well equpied and used out of date technology  and  in the pt era  x-wings would be state of the art.  Most all fans and collectors already own x wings and if he used them instead of the new ones that would have cost  millions and millions in toy sales.   no one would buy another x-wing for their collection.  so he designed new ships for  fans to buy. With episode 3 he tried to make it a serious and darker film but by then the damage had already been done.

 

He  made the PT films from a piint of view    "how do I make the most money?"  NOT  how do I make the best film. L:ucas needs to remake them  and do it this time  with the goal of making the best film possible. Not with the goal of getting a new generation of kid fans. Lucas excuses  the  goal on kids  by saying  that star wars was always meant for children and this and that.  I can not find one person would watches a new hope  and finds it  geared towrds  children. it is not hokey and it  does not have  kid humor in it. it is a film that can be enjoyed by adults and kids alike. same as the wizard of oz.   neither of those films has the type of slap you in yuor face   this is meant for children  comedy that jar jar brings.

watching   episode 1  and the jar jar antics and the child anakin just makes you scratch your head and say why..unless you think about what I just said. it  was done for a reason.  to  bring in children and sell toys. If kids would have entered  episode 1 and the filmwould have been serious like 80s lucas said they would be  and it was a film   like a mixture of  epmire strikes back and the godfather kids would have been bored to death and they would have hated it.  BUT they could have been hailed as  great films. considering luas   was hurting for money and almos tbroke.   he done the right thing to keep his company  afloat. NOW though he can   correct the wrongs and just give us   the great films we all expected

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Um, okay... I haven't really looked much into either Homer or Shakespeare, but come on, seriously? The works of those guys are revered first and foremost for their POETRY, and their mastery over language.

How does Star Wars with its "witty dialogue" and "cool, memorable one-liners" even COMPETE? Look at the dialogue between Vader and Luke in ESB - what delivers it is really the DELIVERY, the dialog itself is pretty much a cliché combat of relatively uninspired, derivative one-liners. Then look at those poems you cite, the lengthy monologues and verbal clashes, and tell me there is ANY comparison.

It's like saying that 50 years from now, we'll look at Metallica or Radiohead as "the new Bach" or something - just pure nonsense.

 

Saying that the "stories" of both are silly, is really just a lazy cop-out. OF COURSE they're silly. That's not the point.

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I  disagree.  THe dialogue between yoda and luke in empire is poetic in my eyes and some of the best  dialogue  ever written in a  fantasy/sc-fi film.  It is philosophical  and enlightening.

Some of the dialogue in episode 5 goes over peoples head and they do not truly understand the philosophy behind it.

Luke - 'What's in there?"

Yoda - 'Only what you take with you"

That is brilliant.  Many people think yoda just means if luke takes a  blaster in there that means he has a blaster  but what yoda is  saying is spiritual and philosophical. He tells luke he does not need his weapons but  luke takes them anyways and he has fear and self doubt  and it is that self doubt and fear that luke takes in with him  and that is  why when he  chops off vaders head he sees his own face. The force is telling Luke that if he were to fight vader that day   it is his head that would be choped off and that he is not ready because he still has self doubt and no confidence.

 

All the lines between luke and yoda  in episode 5  are brilliant and  they mean something if you can read between the lines. There is not one instance in the PT films where jedi master and student are training and there is memorable dialogue. Not one.

When Luke fails to raise the x-wing and yoda  gives luke that speech when luke sits down is some of the best dialogue I have heard in any film period.

"Size matters not. Look at m, judge me by my size do you? and well you should not..for my allie is the force and a powerful allie it is. Life creates it, makes it grow.its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminius  beings are we  not this crude matter."

I have been drunk before and have cried   at some of the scenes  in episode 5. I know that sounds gay but hey I  was drunk.  Bottom line   is episode 5  is  pure brilliance.

ANother  film that comes to mind with  dialouge  that is  spoken in riddles of phillosophy is  wrath of khan. The  underlining story arc of that film is kirks  depression  about growing old. SPock gives krik a book for his birthday  and  kirk reads the line  when spck gives it to him and it says "it was the best of times , it was the worst of times"  Kirk ask spock if he is trying to give him a message and spock says no. When spock is paged to report to the enterprise  kirk ask him where he is going and spock says the enterprise and he ask kirk where he is off to and kirk looks at the floor  with a sad expression and mumbles "home" and walks off.  Kirk was the only  man to ever pass the kobyashi maru test and he did it by cheating becaseu it is a non win scenario test  and at the end of the movie spock gives his life so that the crew could  live and he admits to kirk before he dies that he never took the kobyashi mru test until  then and ask kirk what did he think of his solution. He had to  give his own life to beat the no win scenario and only then  minutes later  did kirk understand the meaning of spocks book for his birthday. He just lost  his bestfriend and left the funeral and mcoy ask him how he feels and he responds by saying he feels young. through out the entire film kirk is sad and depressed cause he feels old and only  till his best friend dies  does he understand spocks message and he feels young again. This sounds silly but if you get a chance to watch the film any time soon watch it with all these things in mind. it really changes the film. I didn't notice them either till i listened tio  my brothers william shatner bio tape that shatner  made and he explaisn all this.

but back to star wars  episode 5 is on par with Shakespeare in my eyes.  Shakespeare in space. It is at least the closest thing you are going to get  and the PT films had  even more potential  to reach that level than the OT did  because  there was so much going on to  build  on and build up to.  TH rise of a hero and  great jedi who is admired and loved who tragicly  is seducded through no fault of his own and falls from grace. Not because he wanted power not ebcause he wanted to save his wife not   because of anything   selfish  but because  he was seduced. That is/was suppose to be the great tragedy of it all. Everything anakin does in the PT films is done so out of being selfish.  The flaws  of  those three films are so plain and in yuor face its unreal yet so many ppl act as if they are not there or just  sweep them under the carpet for some reason.

 

 

 

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Yeah, Im still VERY bummed over the careless mishandling of the PT storyline.  So much potential wasted, what could've and should've been.  Little did I know back then of the collaborative process that was truly responsible for the OOT success, and not just Luca$.  I agree that the PT could have been modern day Iliad, had the creative potential developed.

"There's no cluster of midiclorians that controls my destiny!" -Han Solo, from a future revision of ANH

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On another note, I feel that Lucas was never a "real" director to begin with. True film directors have an inclination toward the arts from childhood, and start making films when they are 7-8 years old (like Spielberg). Lucas only decided to become a filmmaker because his first choice of becoming a NASCAR racer didn't pan out, and he didn't want to go into the family business of walnut farming. Why was the pod race of TPM so goddamn long? Because GL's real passion was in racing, not cinema! He even admits to not seeing much films to inspire him in his childhood (due to living in a small town), and not seeing his own present-day influences until reaching USC. The original SW would have been just as bad as any of the PT had Kurtz and others intervened. By the time he started having more creative control in ROTJ the seeds of the prequels were being sown. It wasn't until TPM and AOTC that we got to see GL's style in its purest, most essential form.

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sexyloser said:

How is Star Wars anymore ridiculous than a magical lady who lives in a lake or a a quarrel among goddesses to determine the most beautiful that starts a war?

Funny I should read this after having watched Excalibur last night. 

“Okay, I’m goin’, takin’ off. See ya… bye….” — Chip Douglas

“This concludes our broadcast day. Click.” — Chip Douglas

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 (Edited)

It all comes down to the rat-tail. For me, nothing better symbolizes George Lucas' surreal disconnect from the world we live in, as opposed to the fantastical world inside his brainbone, than the rat-tail Hayden Christensen wears in Attack Of The Clones. Then again, it could be worse. It's entirely possible that some heroic unknown soul fought a fierce battle to convince the King of The Sci-Fi Dorks that he shouldn't try to "update" the look of the Star Wars universe for its prequels by having the storm troopers rock acid-washed jeans or Zubaz track suits, but gave up on convincing Lucas not to have the future Darth Vader don a hairstyle generally associated with insecure 11-year-olds in 1983.

Lucas is clearly a man connected to the cultural zeitgeist. Unfortunately, it's the zeitgeist of 1937. While his peers were immersed in the sex, drugs, and rebellion of the '70s. Lucas thought things like "Gee whiz! I'm gonna make the sci-fi serial to top all sci-fi serials! It'll make Flash Gordon look like yesterday's news! And I'll follow it up with a swashbuckling adventure about a daredevil archeologist! Oh it'll just be the bee's knees, I tell ya! And then maybe a murder mystery set in Radio Land! Jumpin' Gee Willikers will it ever be swell! Hey ma, more chocolate milk please!"

By the time Attack of the Clones went into production, it's likely Lucas hadn't interacted with a human being he didn't employ for decades. I imagine that Lucas now surrounds himself with an army of servants droids who carry out his every fickle whim and protect him from interacting with the strange, curious and unpredictable creature known as "humans."

-Nathan Rabin (Onion AV club)

Also, I think he is a good businessman because Lucas Sr probably wanted his son to follow him into the walnut business instead of drag racing all day.

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i believe there's a website that's soley dedicated to the PT and they criticize the OT. Funny, we got a battle of the trilogies here. :)

 

And personally, i thought the Pod Race scene was an amazing scene in the movie. It was cool as it provided another background to Tatooine and the SW universe. That's really the first time we even see a sport played in the saga.

Card playing and gambling doesn't count.

Same with the Government. We learn what kind of government the SW universe had and how its not that disimiliar to any other governments.

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The most frustrating thing about the PT is how it was ruined by George's midlife crisis. The man hadn't directed anything in two decades (with the possible exception of some Young Indy episodes) and then, all of a sudden, he just jumps right back into the director's chair for the most anticipated movie of all time. He should've realized his own limits. Obviously he stayed a filmmaker following Star Wars, not a director but a producer and an idea man (Indy, Labyrinth, Howard the Duck, Willow, etc) and that's how he should've stayed! The prequels should've been made like Empire was: Lucas writes the story (and writes the checks) but other people write the screenplay and direct.

"Unfortunately we have a creator who accepted help from others to cover up his flaws as a storyteller then forgot that he needed that help."

Couldn't have said it better myself, sexyloser.

It's worth pointing out that some key crew members from Young Indy and Radioland Murders (McCallum, Tattersall, Bocquet) carried over to the Prequels. Bocquet was at least one of the handful of people who'd worked on the OT (Jedi). Aside from Williams and Burtt (and Muren for TPM and AOTC), I can't think of anyone else from the OT who carried over.

The collaborative spirit made the OT. That's the ironic thing about Lucas, he failed to see it. He wanted to cut out everyone and everything that was getting in the way of his "vision." First thing you hear him say on the TPM documentary is how he thinks the auteur theory really is true. Well, okay George, but you didn't direct Empire and you only sorta directed Jedi. As for Star Wars '77, well, he certainly deserves all the credit in the world for powering through that literal heart attack of an experience, but that's what made him say "y'know what, I'm done being a director" and that's how it should've stayed.

Lucas fought so hard for control that once he gained that control he didn't want to give it up. Why go through the trouble and inconvenience of dealing with screenwriters and directors when he could afford to just do it all himself?