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Star Wars coming to Blu Ray (UPDATE: August 30 2011, No! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!) — Page 94

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SilverWook said:

I once thought it was as simple as "you gotta' believe".

While I agree on some level, wouldn't the galaxy be full of Jedi by only those standards?

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Harmy said:

I always thought that some people being able to use the force and some not and that it is something that runs in the family was quite clearly implied in the OT ("The boy is our last hope." "No, there is another." - "Force is strong in my family").

Exactly. There's nothing undermining about it.

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Well, yeah, but in the original trilogy the Force was mystical. The fact that only some people can use it doesn't mean it's something physical, it can be in the soul or whatever you want to call it. It's just like in other fantasy stories only some people are born to be wizards and you don't need a rational explanation of that. How lame would a similar concept be in say Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter? "You see, Harry," Dumbledore said, "some people are muggles because they don't have enough midichlorians in their bloodstream...". The midichlorian explanation dumbs the whole concept down and totally destroys its mystical nature.

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Harmy said:

Well, yeah, but in the original trilogy the Force was mystical. The fact that only some people can use it doesn't mean it's something physical, it can be in the soul or whatever you want to call it. It's just like in other fantasy stories only some people are born to be wizards and you don't need a rational explanation of that. How lame would a similar concept be in say Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter? "You see, Harry," Dumbledore said, "some people are muggles because they don't have enough midichlorians in their bloodstream...". The midichlorian explanation dumbs the whole concept down and totally destroys its mystical nature.

From what I understand, midichlorians are the "connection" between a being and the Force. They are not the Force itself. More midichlorians mean more affinity to the Force. The fact that some are more attuned than others comes from the OT itself. The Force is still mystical.

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SilverWook said:

It might also be a "one way call" scenario. Leia senses Luke, but can't send a message as Vader does.

The one-way call was what I felt it was when I first saw the film.

 

Regarding the discussion at hand;  The moment Lucas explained The Force, it lost it's mystique.  It was reduced to a gimmick.  Something to be used for the new style of prequel visuals and an easy out whenever he was stuck trying to fill in dialogue between jumping & spinning scenes.

 

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Anchorhead said:

SilverWook said:

It might also be a "one way call" scenario. Leia senses Luke, but can't send a message as Vader does.

The one-way call was what I felt it was when I first saw the film.

 

Regarding the discussion at hand;  The moment Lucas explained The Force, it lost it's mystique.

The Force is explained in ANH (and TESB to some extent). In TPM, it's explained how someone is connected to the Force.

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Midichloreans were just an unneeded plot device. Didn't ever think they were particularly 'scientific'. 

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Your power is only as great as your connection. Thus, your ability to use the Force, your strength in the Force, is entirely dependant on the amount of midichlorians. There is effectively no difference between midichlorians and the Force itself, the point is you can use the Force because of the measureable amount of midichlorian cells. Yoda says "strong am I in the Force," but in TPM Kenobi remarks that "even Yoda doesn't have a midichlorian count [as] high [as Anakin]", which is significant in that his power is framed in terms of a measureable scientific report.

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I've always said that, if George REALLY needed an objective measurement of force sensitivity, and if he REALLY needed it to be midichlorians, it would have been much more palatable to me if, instead of them being basically the middleman that connects a person to the force, that they were simply little parasites that were attracted to people with force sensitivity.  And the stronger with the force, the more midichlorians would be drawn to them.  It would still be fairly stupid, but at least it wouldn't be as damaging to the force as what we ended up with.

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And what is King Arthur's midi count? Must be pretty high to be able to yank that sword out of the rock it was stuck in! ;)

Star Wars managed just fine for 22 years without some damned technobabble explanation for the Force.

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Wait, so is Han just a moron now that he doesn't believe in something that can be physically measured? (I guess he doesn't believe in the Jedi in general, since they were killed off in public 19 whole years ago. Which seems sort of like saying he doesn't believe in the '92 Houston Oilers but whatever)

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zombie84 said:

Your power is only as great as your connection. Thus, your ability to use the Force, your strength in the Force, is entirely dependant on the amount of midichlorians. There is effectively no difference between midichlorians and the Force itself, the point is you can use the Force because of the measureable amount of midichlorian cells. Yoda says "strong am I in the Force," but in TPM Kenobi remarks that "even Yoda doesn't have a midichlorian count [as] high [as Anakin]", which is significant in that his power is framed in terms of a measureable scientific report.

"The Force is strong in my family."

"My father has it, I have, and my sister has it too."

There has to be something measurable to support those statements.

More midichlorians, more potential the individual has, yes. But I still don't see how does it make the Force less mystical, when we are only talking about the link between a being and the Force, not the Force itself.

Baronlando said:

Wait, so is Han just a moron now that he doesn't believe in something that can be physically measured?

He said he doesn't believe in midichlorians?!

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Alexrd said:

He said he doesn't believe in midichlorians?!

No, you get me there, Matlock.

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Alexrd said:

Baronlando said:

Wait, so is Han just a moron now that he doesn't believe in something that can be physically measured?

He said he doesn't believe in midichlorians?!

Is this a joke?

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Baronlando said:

Wait, so is Han just a moron now that he doesn't believe in something that can be physically measured? (I guess he doesn't believe in the Jedi in general, since they were killed off in public 19 whole years ago. Which seems sort of like saying he doesn't believe in the '92 Houston Oilers but whatever)

Who called him a moron? Scruffy looking nerf-herder maybe...

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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Alexrd said:

"The Force is strong in my family."

"My father has it, I have, and my sister has it too."

There has to be something measurable to support those statements.

There HAS to be?  I have a box of Honey Nut Cheerios in my pantry.  Would you like to measure the dimensions of the pantry to see if has breakfast cereal in it?

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Alexrd said:

There has to be something measurable to support those statements.

Why?

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Alexrd said:

But I still don't see how does it make the Force less mystical, when we are only talking about the link between a being and the Force, not the Force itself.

It makes the link itself less ambiguous and mysterious, which was part of the mysticism in the OT.

We were never sure how someone was able to manipulate the Force - it was implied that people with certain ancestries had more of an aptitude toward Force ability than others ("the Force is strong in this one" clearly implies that Luke has more of a natural Force aptitude than, say, Wedge), but it was never stated outright that only those whose ancestors were Force-users could become Force-users themselves.  There was an implication that some were luckier than others, but those who weren't blessed with the "gift" of the Force could still use it through hard work and dedication, which is why groups like the Jedi and Sith formed (at least, that's what I thought before 1999).

Making a person's connection to the Force tangible and measurable in any way completely destroys this view, meaning that only a certain select few could ever use the Force, no matter how hard they worked or how dedicated they were.  That is my problem with midi-chlorians, and why I think they destroy the mysticism of the Force.

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Would someone be so kind as to refresh my memory on something, please?  How does Liam Neeson even come across the kid?  I don't remember there being any mention of them needing to visit Tatooine.  Why does he bother measuring his blood count anyway.

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Let's see if I remember this right (its been a LONG time since I've seen it)

They went to Tunisia to hide the disguised queen and to repair their SR-71.  Jake Lloyd is working in the junk shop set and meets Liam when he stops by to buy a hyperdrive prop from a CG character.  Of course, the Jedi mind powers don't work on CG characters, so they all go back to Pernella August's home set.  There is some kind of chemistry between Liam and Pernella, and he wants to seem interested in her kid (if I was going after a cougar, that's what I'd do) so he tests his blood and found it infected.

Simple, no?

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I figure the Force could run strong in the Skywalker family and still be unexplained and unmeasurable.

why not

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OzoneSherrif said:

I figure the Force could run strong in the Skywalker family and still be unexplained and unmeasurable.

why not

 Yeah, why can't it be just like how some families produce a line of good athletes or artists or anything that requires talent?  It's an inherited trait that's not necesarily measurable.  Doesn't mean other people can't do it, some just got lucky with natural God-given ability that gives them an advantage.  At least that's how I always thought about the Force (& still prefer to).

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Baronlando said:

Wait, so is Han just a moron now that he doesn't believe in something that can be physically measured? (I guess he doesn't believe in the Jedi in general, since they were killed off in public 19 whole years ago. Which seems sort of like saying he doesn't believe in the '92 Houston Oilers but whatever)

To me, this is a HUGE problem with the prequels. 19 years before ANH, Jedi were everywhere and well respected. Now, nobody seems to even believe they ever had any power and that they were just a bunch of loonies! It's even more unbelievable seeing as how they had scientific evidence that the force is real and that the Jedi had real power!

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