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Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta — Page 8

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Here is how I feel about it.

Theatrical version preserved good job. I have nothing to add to this I have no desire to interfere with what ever you lot are up to.

I would however like to have a version that is very analogue looking similar to what i grew up with on TV. It’s not to hard to understand I have said this multiple times and i would like to try and recapture that. The 97 TV broadcast version I think is very good at the end of the film, I can not speak for the start really.

Do the laserdisc or VCD of special edition resemble the broadcast version? The thing is and the common complaint is that the special edition special effects shots do not match the film at all.

But if you watch the 97 broadcast version they actually do match up pretty well in my opinion. This is because the shots were not designed to go with the new Master in 2004 but another master and the broadcast version seems to me a good match. But yeah I hate the mos eisley parts and stuff horrible no matter what.

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OK but does George Lucus have a calibrated monitor?

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Ronster said:
But if you watch the 97 broadcast version they actually do match up pretty well in my opinion. This is because the shots were not designed to go with the new Master in 2004 but another master and the broadcast version seems to me a good match. But yeah I hate the mos eisley parts and stuff horrible no matter what.

They were designed to go with the restored 1977 footage, and cut into the current negative of the film. The SE was subsequently color timed traditionally to resemble a technicolor reference print, where I suspect they attempted to have the new footage match the surrounding old footage. For the 2004 master the negative including the new shots were scanned, and subsequently a digital color timing was applied, that yielded an entirely different look for the film, one that’s not very natural or photographic, but apparently what Lucas wanted.

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ZigZig said:

OK but does George Lucus have a calibrated monitor?

definitely not… He has a calibrated laser gun.

I don’t think the special effects were designed to govwith restored 1977 footage.

I imagine they designed them to match the gout master. As that was the Master prior to any other version.

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Ronster said:

ZigZig said:

OK but does George Lucus have a calibrated monitor?

I imagine they designed them to match the gout master.

You imagine far too much.

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 (Edited)

ZigZig said:

Ronster said:

ZigZig said:

OK but does George Lucus have a calibrated monitor?

I imagine they designed them to match the gout master.

You imagine far too much.

Well I don’t imagine so far as the 97 broadcast version is concerned they do match up.

So this does mean it is not how i remember it in 2004 and also it feels like what I have been trying to nail down what has happened… Do we have mixed colorspaces within the same film as of 2004. Look at the difference of the green laser color and stuff weird stuff going on similat to color error of using filters in wrong colorspace that well this thread proves you need to be in the right colorspace to use filters effectively on footage so as you get a true result or intended result.

Is this part of what has happened post 2004?

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Ronster said:

ZigZig said:

OK but does George Lucus have a calibrated monitor?

definitely not… He has a calibrated laser gun.

I don’t think the special effects were designed to govwith restored 1977 footage.

I imagine they designed them to match the gout master. As that was the Master prior to any other version.

I don’t believe that’s correct. The GOUT is simply a telecine of a fading color timed interpositive of the original film. By the time the GOUT was made the negative and interpositives were already in a pretty poor state, as is evident from the GOUT itself, and the fact, that they had to rely on a technicolor print to color grade the film once the negative had been restored for the SE.

More info can be found here:

http://fd.noneinc.com/secrethistoryofstarwarscom/secrethistoryofstarwars.com/savingstarwars.html

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Ronster said:

ZigZig said:

Ronster said:

ZigZig said:

OK but does George Lucus have a calibrated monitor?

I imagine they designed them to match the gout master.

You imagine far too much.

Well I don’t imagine so far as the 97 broadcast version is concerned they do match up.

So this does mean it is not how i remember it and also it feels like what I have been trying to nail down what has happened… Do we have mixed colorspaces within the same film as of 2004. Look at the difference of the green laser color and stuff weird stuff going on similat to color error of using filters in wrong colorspace that well this thread proves you need to be in the right colorspace to use filters effectively on footage so as you get a true result or intended result.

Is this part of what has happened post 2004?

They simply digitally graded the new scan they made of the negative. Comparing the 2004 master with earlier telecines is comparing apples and oranges on a number of different levels. The 2004 version simply represents a completely different color grading done from scratch, while the telecines were sourced from color timed interpositives, where the telecine process itself introduces its own color signature, causing the final colors of the telecine to be only weakly correlated with the colors of the source.

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no I agree the film itself restored was combined with the special edition shots… But that does not mean the fx shots were designed against the print itself. As the restored print was probably was not available to design the fx shots to match to.

It seems to match the laserdiscs more so or broadcast telecines in my opinion and that colorspace.

This explains the discrepency i feel.

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Ronster said:

no I agree the film itself restored was combined with the special edition shots… But that does not mean the fx shots were designed against the print itself. As the restored print was probably was not available to design the fx shots to match to.

It seems to match the laserdiscs more so or broadcast telecines in my opinion and that colorspace.

This explains the discrepency i feel.

I have a couple of references of the 1997 SE print, and I don’t see the discrepancies you are referring to. The digital shots were inserted into the restored negative, after which the restoration was color-timing was accomplished by YCM Labs, which included the new digital shots, I would think.

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basically Laserschwerts special edition trailer is the same color for special effects in 97 broadcast version although pan & scanned.

If the print special effects shots does not resemble exactly laserschwerts trailer then we have something unique.

Does the special edition Laserdisc resemble 97 broadcast version?

Look in the Archive…

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Ronster said:

basically Laserschwerts special edition trailer is the same color for special effects in 97 broadcast version although pan & scanned.

If the print special effects shots does not resemble exactly laserschwerts trailer then we have something unique.

Does the special edition Laserdisc resemble 97 broadcast version?

Look in the Archive…

Yes, they are from the same source.

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DrDre said:

Ronster said:

basically Laserschwerts special edition trailer is the same color for special effects in 97 broadcast version although pan & scanned.

If the print special effects shots does not resemble exactly laserschwerts trailer then we have something unique.

Does the special edition Laserdisc resemble 97 broadcast version?

Look in the Archive…

Yes, they are from the same source.

Ok So basically I want to re-create 97 (broadcast?) version without crap horrible stuff at mos eisley but in yprbr colorspace.

Did anyone ever capture 97 pal laserdisc?

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So, one issue I have with what you are saying, Ronster, is that you really haven’t researched between the generation of the new interpositive the DE/Faces/Gout transfer was made from and how it ended up on the DVD/HD/Blu-ray digital print.

Here is what happened. Between when that interpostive was struck and 1993, the original negative of Star Wars faded terribly. Now, if you watch all the OOT home video widescreen versions, you will see some interesting differences in the color that could be the result of early fading, but overall they are very similar. For the Special Edition in 1997, they were working with a negative that had to be retimed. IN addition, they replaced a number of effects shots, added some effects, added some new shots. When you look at color timing, it is the process where each shot is timed when generating the interpositive. From there the prints are struck. So what you are seeing in both the GOUT and SE home video and broadcast is the telecine of a correctly colortimed interpositive. When it was scanned in 2003, it was not color timed during the scan, but was digitally color timed post scan. This resulted in all the original color timing to be lost. Not only that, but different batches of film faded at different rates so some shots are really badly faded while others aren’t. Some of the film had gone to Tunesia and back. Some to London and back, and some had never left California. This was taken into account in the color timing for the SE, but it seems not for the 2003 scan (which was done at Lucasfilm). Reportedly both the SE and the 2003 scan were timed to the Technicolor print Lucas has, but the results of both are questionable. It doesn’t appear that TESB or ROTJ suffered from the same fading as Star Wars.

To find what the colors should be we do have the telecines of the pre SE version of the film. But we are not just reliant on those telecines to find the original colors. Star Wars was one of the last films to have Technicolor prints struck. We not only have scans of Technicolor prints, but of other prints. When you put the Japanese Special Collection, Special Widescreen Edition, Definitive Edition/Faces/GOUT, foreign widescreen editions, the 16 mm prints, the 35 mm prints, and compare them to reference photos, photos of props, models, costumes, sets (or the occasions when people have been able to actually see some of those such as the costume exhibit that has been going around the country), we can arrive at a very good estimation of what the original colors were. We can see how well or bad the 2003 scan/color correction/cleanup was done on a shot by shot basis. Some are easy to recover. Some are not. Some are the result of the digital noise reduction, which removed not only actual dirt, but smoke as well.

So constantly saying the effects shots are the problem is not accurate. A lot of the effects shots have more accurate color than the no effects shots. A big reason was that the original negative of the elements were not as overused as the fully edited original negative. Some effects shots were never touched and are the same now as in 1977. Some were replaced in 1996 and some in 2003. I’ve noticed a mixed bag as to the quality of the special effects. For instance you have all these shots of Vader or an imperial pilot in the Tie fighter cockpit set that were filmed under similar circumstances and yet the red lights surrounding them come out different. A lot of those are original and not SE.

Now the inserted SE footage has been noted, even in the 1997 telecines, to be off. A bit too red and not quite matching the surrounding footage. I never noticed how bad the 1997 version was in the theater, but I think it is fair to say that the telecine is pretty accurate. We should soon have a good scan of a 35 mm print of the 97 SE to really see how it was in theaters.

So it isn’t the effects not fitting or the new footage not fitting, it is that there are so many sources and the SE just added to the number. The blu-ray really has to be cleaned up one shot at a time. It is a lot of work. The only reason I tried to do a global correction was to find the best way to fix the major issues and have a basis to take those fixes further in the necessary scenes. Some need more contrast, some less, some more color, some less, some need to be brighter and some darker. About the only thing I haven’t needed to mess with is the darks. When I compare it to the film scans, it is comparable. But the hue is not something that needs to be changed. I tried that and the results were not good enough. I wasn’t happy until I scrapped that and focused on balancing the colors. What you are seeing is that the yellows are not well represented in the blu-ray and pushing the hue one direction changes the reds to yellows and looks like it fixes the problem, but it doesn’t. It just creates other problems. You have not found the magic fix. There is no magic fix. You have to fix nearly everything. Especially in reels 1, 2, 3 and 6.

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Ronster said:

DrDre said:

Ronster said:

basically Laserschwerts special edition trailer is the same color for special effects in 97 broadcast version although pan & scanned.

If the print special effects shots does not resemble exactly laserschwerts trailer then we have something unique.

Does the special edition Laserdisc resemble 97 broadcast version?

Look in the Archive…

Yes, they are from the same source.

Ok So basically I want to re-create 97 (broadcast?) version without crap horrible stuff at mos eisley but in yprbr colorspace.

Did anyone ever capture 97 pal laserdisc?

Yes. That is available.

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 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

So, one issue I have with what you are saying, Ronster, is that you really haven’t researched between the generation of the new interpositive the DE/Faces/Gout transfer was made from and how it ended up on the DVD/HD/Blu-ray digital print.

Here is what happened. Between when that interpostive was struck and 1993, the original negative of Star Wars faded terribly. Now, if you watch all the OOT home video widescreen versions, you will see some interesting differences in the color that could be the result of early fading, but overall they are very similar. For the Special Edition in 1997, they were working with a negative that had to be retimed. IN addition, they replaced a number of effects shots, added some effects, added some new shots. When you look at color timing, it is the process where each shot is timed when generating the interpositive. From there the prints are struck. So what you are seeing in both the GOUT and SE home video and broadcast is the telecine of a correctly colortimed interpositive. When it was scanned in 2003, it was not color timed during the scan, but was digitally color timed post scan. This resulted in all the original color timing to be lost. Not only that, but different batches of film faded at different rates so some shots are really badly faded while others aren’t. Some of the film had gone to Tunesia and back. Some to London and back, and some had never left California. This was taken into account in the color timing for the SE, but it seems not for the 2003 scan (which was done at Lucasfilm). Reportedly both the SE and the 2003 scan were timed to the Technicolor print Lucas has, but the results of both are questionable. It doesn’t appear that TESB or ROTJ suffered from the same fading as Star Wars.

To find what the colors should be we do have the telecines of the pre SE version of the film. But we are not just reliant on those telecines to find the original colors. Star Wars was one of the last films to have Technicolor prints struck. We not only have scans of Technicolor prints, but of other prints. When you put the Japanese Special Collection, Special Widescreen Edition, Definitive Edition/Faces/GOUT, foreign widescreen editions, the 16 mm prints, the 35 mm prints, and compare them to reference photos, photos of props, models, costumes, sets (or the occasions when people have been able to actually see some of those such as the costume exhibit that has been going around the country), we can arrive at a very good estimation of what the original colors were. We can see how well or bad the 2003 scan/color correction/cleanup was done on a shot by shot basis. Some are easy to recover. Some are not. Some are the result of the digital noise reduction, which removed not only actual dirt, but smoke as well.

So constantly saying the effects shots are the problem is not accurate. A lot of the effects shots have more accurate color than the no effects shots. A big reason was that the original negative of the elements were not as overused as the fully edited original negative. Some effects shots were never touched and are the same now as in 1977. Some were replaced in 1996 and some in 2003. I’ve noticed a mixed bag as to the quality of the special effects. For instance you have all these shots of Vader or an imperial pilot in the Tie fighter cockpit set that were filmed under similar circumstances and yet the red lights surrounding them come out different. A lot of those are original and not SE.

Now the inserted SE footage has been noted, even in the 1997 telecines, to be off. A bit too red and not quite matching the surrounding footage. I never noticed how bad the 1997 version was in the theater, but I think it is fair to say that the telecine is pretty accurate. We should soon have a good scan of a 35 mm print of the 97 SE to really see how it was in theaters.

So it isn’t the effects not fitting or the new footage not fitting, it is that there are so many sources and the SE just added to the number. The blu-ray really has to be cleaned up one shot at a time. It is a lot of work. The only reason I tried to do a global correction was to find the best way to fix the major issues and have a basis to take those fixes further in the necessary scenes. Some need more contrast, some less, some more color, some less, some need to be brighter and some darker. About the only thing I haven’t needed to mess with is the darks. When I compare it to the film scans, it is comparable. But the hue is not something that needs to be changed. I tried that and the results were not good enough. I wasn’t happy until I scrapped that and focused on balancing the colors. What you are seeing is that the yellows are not well represented in the blu-ray and pushing the hue one direction changes the reds to yellows and looks like it fixes the problem, but it doesn’t. It just creates other problems. You have not found the magic fix. There is no magic fix. You have to fix nearly everything. Especially in reels 1, 2, 3 and 6.

Well I think it was a bit confusing why the filter was not working as intended.

Are you using a HSV filter in the correct colorspace yprbr?

no it’s all interesting stuff and to be honest I like the way the old transfers look for obvious reasons, But I also think they can look better.

there are 4 combinations.

1.Hue Shift

  1. Change Color

  2. Hue Shift and Change Color (When you find one of these it is very cool in fact the most fun shots to do really)

  3. Do Nothing at all it is correct.

Essentially I have no time at all to do a project perhaps until December. But I am happy a big hurdle has been overcome.

In terms of the 97 laserdisc Special edition I probably only want the Special edition Special effects Shots Only from Battle of Yavin, well everything after the turret / tie fighter attack. The begining as Dre said looks good in places but generally this is a step back from the GOUT in a way.

So yeah it’s on the back burner but I have no time to do anything at this moment.

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Ok in some brief spare time I tested Womble Dvd Wizard and although the filer is yprbr colorspace it is just not a good piece of software as the filter was correct but just was innacurate and errors occured compared with the VLC media player filter.

So to offer up how I am considering the Solution now is as follows.

Load Gout in VLC.

Set hue shift in VLC media player to desired hue and capture to AVI in Fraps. this would entail having a large number of AVI clips to piece together in Lightworks and unauthordox but I can’t see anh other way of doing this. For any Color change only the color wheel should be used as not strictly RGB aside from master brightness / contrast / Gamma and saturation. Sort of creating a rule book at the moment about it.

unless for instance you can set the colorspace hue filter on programs like adobe after effects or similar. This I am unaware of capabilities of this software.

But I would vouch that once an assembled version is shifted where needed this is then color matched to a better source with Dr Dre tool or another color match filter.

This is as far as I got, as I am now not able to study any further at this time but shame about womble though.

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So not only are you not calibrating your monitor before making color adjustments but you aren’t even encoding properly? You’re playing it back and recording it with FRAPS? I feel like we’re being trolled now.

Support my bandcamp page! https://jacobmartin2.bandcamp.com/

The cat in question

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Possessed said:

So not only are you not calibrating your monitor before making color adjustments but you aren’t even encoding properly? You’re playing it back and recording it with FRAPS? I feel like we’re being trolled now.

this would only be for a reference. But I can’t seem to find any software that is not using RGB filters.

So it would only be for a color match sample. The purpose is to create a reference version outside of RGB filters. For which if you like is a way around the problem of an RGB hue filter (wrong math)

I am trying to find a way to not use the RGB hue filter within a NLE.

The reason I suggest Fraps capture as it will capture from a window view and you also can have the filter control visible amongst any other windows needed.

But it is the only way I can see of doing this to create a reference. It is Hackish and it is unauthordox like I said. There is possibly a better way in better software may do this but it is unknown to me.

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Possessed said:

I feel like we’re being trolled now.

Of course we are.
Mods, isn’t it time to close this topic?

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So, how do you plan on playing back this finished color correction? Do you have a theater quality projector? If not, your aim is without merit. You will have to convert and then convert it back to RGB to do anything with it so what is the point in converting it in the first place? If you start with an RGB source (GOUT, DVD, and BR) and you are going to watch it on an RGB device (Any color television ever made) with an RGB file type (as DVD and BR require), I really don’t see the point of your exercise. You are trying to recreate the wheel and there is no reason to. Calibrate your monitor first. Then stick to RGB (what your source and end viewing will be in). That is the colors our eyes see after all. Unless you have calibrated professional equipment designed for theatrical projection, there is no reason to change the color space. If it starts out RGB and ends up RGB and gets to your eyes in RGB, then … it is an exercise in uselessness. Especially without a calibrated monitor. Yours is obviously way off.

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yotsuya said:

So, how do you plan on playing back this finished color correction? Do you have a theater quality projector? If not, your aim is without merit. You will have to convert and then convert it back to RGB to do anything with it so what is the point in converting it in the first place? If you start with an RGB source (GOUT, DVD, and BR) and you are going to watch it on an RGB device (Any color television ever made) with an RGB file type (as DVD and BR require), I really don’t see the point of your exercise. You are trying to recreate the wheel and there is no reason to. Calibrate your monitor first. Then stick to RGB (what your source and end viewing will be in). That is the colors our eyes see after all. Unless you have calibrated professional equipment designed for theatrical projection, there is no reason to change the color space. If it starts out RGB and ends up RGB and gets to your eyes in RGB, then … it is an exercise in uselessness. Especially without a calibrated monitor. Yours is obviously way off.

I can not seem to get it through to you but I will try again.

Anything RGB will display the YUV or Ypryb colorspace correctly.

The filter to do the hue shift though can not be done from the roots of Red Green and Blue because the math is off that is why it creates the weird / odd error. Womble did have right sort of hue shift but the filter itself was poor.

What ever filter is in VLC is the right filter to use for hue shifting the Gout which Lightworks does not have only strict RGB root shifting.

Any hue shift does not require calibration because it is relevant only to how the footage or file is. There is no added or color taken away only shifted and the aim is to shift it so that it is not off base i.e. shifted away from where it would be normally. Correcting for the shift that it is plagued by.

you can watch it on any RGB device no problem.

I can’t say it any more times I am talking about a video filter and how it handles and trying to find away atound the problem, even you said yourself you can’t use it… I say you can if you use the right one.

Anymore of this sillyness, If you still can not understand that the filter acts differently in VLC than root shifting from RGB then I just at a loss of explaining this to you. This conversation also has nothing to do with film prints. It is a practical based thread on why color hue shifting is not a bad thing if done a differenh way.

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You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

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towne32 said:

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

You know in Star Wars where the actors have really red faces… That is what i am talking about.