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Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker Redux Ideas thread — Page 158

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I don’t doubt it was a last second decision. But that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a warranted one.

I think both of you are forgetting that at its core Star Wars is a fairy tale. It’s for 12 year olds. Nev, your argument for how it should have been about the systems that subvert democracy would definitely work in a political drama or some movie that is for a much older audience. It definitely works as an underlying message in the prequels or TLJ, but I don’t believe it should be the overall message of the saga.

I much prefer the mythical good guys v. bad guys side of things, and the struggles that the good people go through to resist the evil side.

Exsqueeze me.

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RogueLeader said:

I think you guys are just trying to rationalize a lazy storytelling decision.

If they wanted to bring him back, maybe they could have set it up better, but it clearly was a decision they didn’t make until the last movie.

You guys talk about how it ties everything in, and good for the poetry and rhyming, I suppose. But I think bringing him back actually hurt the development of the new characters. It gave them less time and agency to come into their own. By the end of it, the new characters are still just overshadow by the legacy characters. I mean, good for you guys to see the silver lining, and maybe there could’ve been a good way to bring him back, but this wasn’t it imo.

I’m glad Palpatine wasn’t set up in TLJ. By setting him up in TLJ, it would’ve undermined the hope that the First Order will be defeated since it’s all for nothing since Palpatine’s just going to return and make things worse. He needed to come out of nowhere in TRoS.

Also, how does it hurt that development, exactly?

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

I don’t doubt it was a last second decision. But that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a warranted one.

I think both of you are forgetting that at its core Star Wars is a fairy tale. It’s for 12 year olds. Nev, your argument for how it should have been about the systems that subvert democracy would definitely work in a political drama or some movie that is for a much older audience. It definitely works as an underlying message in the prequels or TLJ, but I don’t believe it should be the overall message of the saga.

I much prefer the mythical good guys v. bad guys side of things, and the struggles that the good people go through to resist the evil side.

That’s not an excuse for it to suffer from bad writing, and certainly does not make it be immune from criticism. Not that I agree with Nev.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

I don’t doubt it was a last second decision. But that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a warranted one.

I think both of you are forgetting that at its core Star Wars is a fairy tale. It’s for 12 year olds. Nev, your argument for how it should have been about the systems that subvert democracy would definitely work in a political drama or some movie that is for a much older audience. It definitely works as an underlying message in the prequels or TLJ, but I don’t believe it should be the overall message of the saga.

I respect that the story of the OT is more of a fairy tale, but like you said the prequels changed that message. That Pandora’s box was open since 1999, and any Star Wars movie that doesn’t incorporate that message feels like a regression (TFA, I’m looking at you).

I much prefer the mythical good guys v. bad guys side of things, and the struggles that the good people go through to resist the evil side.

I feel like a good conclusion would have both. It would have Resistance against First Order with a Big Bad like Hux or Thrawn or Kylo, but it would also have the undercurrents of that corrupt system argument which the Resistance (and perhaps Kylo himself) is trying to destroy.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V2 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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TestingOutTheTest said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I don’t doubt it was a last second decision. But that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a warranted one.

I think both of you are forgetting that at its core Star Wars is a fairy tale. It’s for 12 year olds. Nev, your argument for how it should have been about the systems that subvert democracy would definitely work in a political drama or some movie that is for a much older audience. It definitely works as an underlying message in the prequels or TLJ, but I don’t believe it should be the overall message of the saga.

I much prefer the mythical good guys v. bad guys side of things, and the struggles that the good people go through to resist the evil side.

That’s not an excuse for it to suffer from bad writing, and certainly does not make it be immune from criticism. Not that I agree with Nev.

Idk, I mean, children’s stories tend to have a very basic, easy to understand central message. There can be some adult stuff added on top of that, but it shouldn’t be the focus.

You’re free to call it bad writing, but these sorts of stories have their roots in ancient stories all across the world.

Exsqueeze me.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

sherlockpotter said:

I think the biggest failing of TROS was bringing back Palpatine. Kylo was set up in TLJ to be the ultimate villain, and then he was just sidelined in favor of “rotting grandpa GLaDOS.”

I don’t think it’s wrong for Kylo to be redeemed, so I disagree with Dual of the Fates; but I also think he has to more than just redeem himself - he has to fail before he can be saved. TROS should have been the culmination of a really interesting negative character arc; and instead, he just spends the entire movie chasing after Rey. Then his mom dies, and he just…snaps out of it, I guess?

If I were writing the script, it would have focused on Kylo trying to be the Big, Bad, Supreme Leader, but failing at it. The galaxy, inspired by Luke, is revolting everywhere he looks, and the First Order is spread way too thin. The First Order Generals and Admirals are all starting to question his abilities to lead; Hux is planning a coup, and is waiting for the right time to strike. Kylo is stressing out. He was already somewhat unstable (as seen in TFA), but now he’s just going crazy. Any time someone questions his orders, he cuts them down. And the more he loses control, the more the First Order splinters, the stronger the Resistance grows. He’s the maker of his own downfall.

Because he was wrong to pursue this path. He was wrong to join the First Order. He was wrong to seek this power, power that he’s not equipped to wield. And, try as he might to ignore that fact, over the course of the film, he has to finally come to terms with it.

When he finally turns back to the light, he does it in order to save his mother (building off of that moment in TLJ). And then, he sacrifices himself not just to save one person, but to undo all of the damage that he’s done to the galaxy, to atone for his sins. His final act is to destroy what remains of the First Order at the cost of his own life. Leia survives, and goes on to rebuild the Republic (correctly, this time); and Ben is able to visit her as a Ghost.

I really don’t have any major issues with VII or VIII overall (even if they could be improved upon); but IX was the only film in the bunch to truly fail for me.

Palpatine needed to be brought back. By bringing him back this ties the entire Skywalker saga together and gives IX a sense of true finality; he also needed to be related to Rey, to reinforce her toxic core belief that she is worthless. It also pays off RotS, in which he was set up to have a power to keep himself alive in a way Plagueis couldn’t.

Regarding the “tying the Skywalker saga together” thing, Abrams said this:

…when you look at this as nine chapters of a story, perhaps the weirder thing would be if Palpatine didn’t return. You just look at what he talks about, who he is, how important he is, what the story is — strangely, his absence entirely from the third trilogy would be conspicuous.

I completely agree that Palpatine is one of TROS’s biggest strengths. Not only do I think it was necessary for the saga to make sense as a whole and to actually feel like a saga, but I think Palpatine was done exceptionally well in the film… For awhile I’ve felt fairly neutral about Rey’s Palpatine lineage, I really liked Rey Nobody in TLJ, etc. but I think I’m at the point where I actually like it, mostly for all of the different symbolism and messages it brings, especially with Ben’s final act being to revive Rey and then her taking on the Skywalker name- what better defeat could Palpatine have had than not only being destroyed by his own kin (backed by the spirits of his eternal enemies) but then the final living member of the three-generation bloodline born to combat him giving his life to revive his granddaughter, who takes on the Skywalker name to honor, preserve, and carry on their legacy? Love it.

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Brewzter said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

sherlockpotter said:

I think the biggest failing of TROS was bringing back Palpatine. Kylo was set up in TLJ to be the ultimate villain, and then he was just sidelined in favor of “rotting grandpa GLaDOS.”

I don’t think it’s wrong for Kylo to be redeemed, so I disagree with Dual of the Fates; but I also think he has to more than just redeem himself - he has to fail before he can be saved. TROS should have been the culmination of a really interesting negative character arc; and instead, he just spends the entire movie chasing after Rey. Then his mom dies, and he just…snaps out of it, I guess?

If I were writing the script, it would have focused on Kylo trying to be the Big, Bad, Supreme Leader, but failing at it. The galaxy, inspired by Luke, is revolting everywhere he looks, and the First Order is spread way too thin. The First Order Generals and Admirals are all starting to question his abilities to lead; Hux is planning a coup, and is waiting for the right time to strike. Kylo is stressing out. He was already somewhat unstable (as seen in TFA), but now he’s just going crazy. Any time someone questions his orders, he cuts them down. And the more he loses control, the more the First Order splinters, the stronger the Resistance grows. He’s the maker of his own downfall.

Because he was wrong to pursue this path. He was wrong to join the First Order. He was wrong to seek this power, power that he’s not equipped to wield. And, try as he might to ignore that fact, over the course of the film, he has to finally come to terms with it.

When he finally turns back to the light, he does it in order to save his mother (building off of that moment in TLJ). And then, he sacrifices himself not just to save one person, but to undo all of the damage that he’s done to the galaxy, to atone for his sins. His final act is to destroy what remains of the First Order at the cost of his own life. Leia survives, and goes on to rebuild the Republic (correctly, this time); and Ben is able to visit her as a Ghost.

I really don’t have any major issues with VII or VIII overall (even if they could be improved upon); but IX was the only film in the bunch to truly fail for me.

Palpatine needed to be brought back. By bringing him back this ties the entire Skywalker saga together and gives IX a sense of true finality; he also needed to be related to Rey, to reinforce her toxic core belief that she is worthless. It also pays off RotS, in which he was set up to have a power to keep himself alive in a way Plagueis couldn’t.

Regarding the “tying the Skywalker saga together” thing, Abrams said this:

…when you look at this as nine chapters of a story, perhaps the weirder thing would be if Palpatine didn’t return. You just look at what he talks about, who he is, how important he is, what the story is — strangely, his absence entirely from the third trilogy would be conspicuous.

I completely agree that Palpatine is one of TROS’s biggest strengths. Not only do I think it was necessary for the saga to make sense as a whole and to actually feel like a saga, but I think Palpatine was done exceptionally well in the film… For awhile I’ve felt fairly neutral about Rey’s Palpatine lineage, I really liked Rey Nobody in TLJ, etc. but I think I’m at the point where I actually like it, mostly for all of the different symbolism and messages it brings, especially with Ben’s final act being to revive Rey and then her taking on the Skywalker name- what better defeat could Palpatine have had than not only being destroyed by his own kin (backed by the spirits of his eternal enemies) but then the final living member of the three-generation bloodline born to combat him giving his life to revive his granddaughter, who takes on the Skywalker name to honor, preserve, and carry on their legacy? Love it.

Regarding “Rey nobody”, I feel this is one of the biggest misconceptions of TLJ, that her parents were nobody in the sense that she did not come from some important bloodline — Rey said they were nobody in the sense that they were not anyone important and therefore had no real, important reason to abandon her, and she is upset because it turns out, to them, she is completely worthless. Rey wanted to be loved by her parents, to push away her feelings created by her toxic core belief of self-worthlessness that she’s had for the past fifteen years — she’s always lied to herself that her parents abandoned for some important reason which would show that they truly did love her.

On top of that, she was focusing on more specifically her parents, not anyone else in her bloodline such as ancestors, her parents were the ones who abandoned her and, again, she wanted to feel as though they truly loved her, to cope with her irrational, toxic core belief.

Even then, just because her parents, the ones who birthed her, were nobody does not mean her other ancestors (i.e. paternal grandfather) were nobody.

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It’s so convoluted, though. Why make it so much more complicated than it had to be?

EDIT: Referring to how TROS decided to complicate her backstory.

People can rationalize it all they want and say how it is beautiful storytelling, but I genuinely feel it was because they felt they had to explain Rey’s power to the people in the audience who just couldn’t handle that she didn’t have a special origin.

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Oh I agree that’s likely the reason for why that plotline was introduced, but I think it turned out decent anyway.

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I just feel like we relented and are just trying to see the positives of the story they gave us, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But I guess I wish there was more recognition of the fact that maybe this wasn’t the best direction they could’ve gone in.

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Maybe I’ve lost it because of this darn movie, but besides the whole Ben living and Anakin inclusion thingies I am yet to read anything that I would have preferred over what we already have in TROS (or more specifically in Hal’s Ascendant edit).

Exsqueeze me.

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RogueLeader said:

I just feel like we relented and are just trying to see the positives of the story they gave us, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But I guess I wish there was more recognition of the fact that maybe this wasn’t the best direction they could’ve gone in.

People will eventually accept the bars of TROS’s storytelling cage just as they accepted the limitations of the prequels in order to continue consuming new Star Wars content.

As for me, I’m still salty as Crait about it.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V2 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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NeverarGreat said:

RogueLeader said:

I just feel like we relented and are just trying to see the positives of the story they gave us, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But I guess I wish there was more recognition of the fact that maybe this wasn’t the best direction they could’ve gone in.

People will eventually accept the bars of TROS’s storytelling cage just as they accepted the limitations of the prequels in order to continue consuming new Star Wars content.

As for me, I’m still salty as Crait about it.

Absolutely, it’s been happening since they finished and will only get better as more time passes and more supporting content (like TCW for the prequels) comes out,

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RogueLeader said:

I feel like the ways both the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy end feels sort of inevitable. Perhaps time has added to this feeling, but Anakin falling to the dark side, and then him being redeemed by his son, feel like these are the only ways these stories could’ve gone.

When it comes to the story of the sequel trilogy and the way they end, I feel like those are harder to pin down. I know George said the sequels were about the “grandchildren” and the torch being passed to them, per se, but I can understand the struggle the writers had when trying to figure this out.

I guess I am curious to hear if people feel like the ending of TROS felt like the right or inevitable ending to them. And if not, what do you think that ending should have been? Could you potentially edit TROS to get closer to that ending you imagined?

To be fair, there was no indication that Vader could be redeemed by the end of Empire, and of course he wasn’t even Luke’s father by the end of Star Wars. Only by looking back at the whole trilogy you could connect the dots of an overall story of a son redeeming his father, but things could’ve gone in many different directions at any point in the trilogy. Obviously in the prequels the ending was inevitable, and they leaned on setting up what would happen afterwards, so by looking at the story from ep I to VI as a whole, it does seem inevitable that Anakin would turn back to the light, as we get to see just how conflicted he was in turning to the dark side.

By leaning so heavly into what came before, the way TFA played out did end up giving a heavy feeling of inevitability, by the end we felt we knew how it would all play out, because we had seen it before. We had another Vader, and this time he’s set up from the very beggining as a very conflicted villain, as having a familial connection to our heroes, and as having an old, disfigured Master who turned him bad, and who’s the real evil behind it all. And we had another humble hero, stuck on a desert planet, but destined for greatness. We even had the sage-like figure who dies by the end, followed by a quest to find an old Master.

And so in our minds we could already see how the rest of the trilogy would play out: Rey would go on to be trained as a Jedi, there would be some big revelation about her backstory, Kylo would turn to the light, and together they would defeat Snoke, which would mark the end of the First Order, and the return of the Jedi and the New New Republic. This is why, looking back, I think TLJ was great despite some of it’s flaws, because it was able to take something old and cast it into something truly new. This is also why it was so divisive, because many (myself included) were just ready to simply continue the direct retelling through to the end, we wanted to see Luke training Rey in the ways of the Force, we wanted to see Kylo turn good, we wanted all the speculation behind Rey and Snoke’s backstory to have a cathartic payoff. It took me years of retrospection to realize how fresh TLJ was to the franchise, because it didn’t actually go against anything TFA set up, as many accused it of, but rather it went agaist our preconcieved notions of how those things should play out, of how this story should work. We were shown things aren’t as simple as the Old Tales (OT, get it?), that maybe the Jedi weren’t infallible (as is shown in the prequels), maybe somebody can’t turn good after doing so much bad, maybe defeating an Empire is not as simple as taking down the ‘big bad’ sitting on the throne, and maybe there isn’t some big legacy revelation that sets everything in place.

TLJ freed this new story and allowed it to become it’s own (much like Kylo in the film), it revealed that there was no set place for these characters to fit in (much like Rey in the film), no set story ‘destined’ to play out. It opened the door for the final chapter to be something new, different and original. TRoS closed that door shut, shoving everything back into the original mold: Rey goes on to be trained as a Jedi, there is some big revelation about her backstory, Kylo turns to the light, and together they defeat Snoke Palpatine, which marks the end of the First and Final Order, and the return of the Jedi and the New New Republic. The Empire is defeated by taking down the ‘big bad’ on the throne again.

So, to answer your question, TRoS is definitely THE most inevitable feeling ending of them all, but after TLJ… it shouldn’t have been.

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RogueLeader said:

I agree that IX would’ve been more interesting to focus solely on Kylo trying to be the big bad as everything fell apart around him. I feel like this could still be accomplished somewhat in a “Palpatine-less” edit, like joshuabri’s edit. I think simply removing Palpatine’s influence naturally gives Kylo a lot more agency in the film. Hopefully joshuabri’s work can lead to more edits that are even more polished.

Oh man, really? I had no idea there was a Palpatine-less edit out there. (I didn’t even think it was possible, to be honest.) I definitely have to check that out now; thanks for the tip!

I don’t see any way Leia could live though, unless someone wanted to roto a lot more footage of her for the rest of the movie. I was mainly just saying, “In a perfect world, this is what I wish the movie had been.” I don’t fault J.J. for offing her, given the circumstances.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I think both of you are forgetting that at its core Star Wars is a fairy tale. It’s for 12 year olds. Nev, your argument for how it should have been about the systems that subvert democracy would definitely work in a political drama or some movie that is for a much older audience. It definitely works as an underlying message in the prequels or TLJ, but I don’t believe it should be the overall message of the saga.

It’s fine that you prefer the fairy tale aspect, Jar Jar. But isn’t it rather reductive to say that Star Wars “has to be” a kiddie story at heart? Clone Wars isn’t a fairy tale, neither is The Mandalorian, Rogue One, the Prequel Trilogy… Star Wars has already been growing and changing, whether or not you like those changes (and as the Prequels have shown, not everyone does). The thing is, it has to find ways to evolve if it’s going to grow and thrive. Star Wars is almost 50 years old at this point; if it has to just repeat the same stories and themes after all this time, doesn’t that make everything in this galaxy very small and reductive? Does Star Wars have to be made “for 12 year olds”? Can’t different stories in that universe be made for different people, looking for different things?

Like, god, imagine if the last 12 films, over 40-odd years, were all telling essentially the same story, with the same tone and the same ideas. Wouldn’t people get sick of that?

And Burbin, I really enjoyed your thoughts on TLJ. Very well said, I heartily agree!

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Those are really fantastic thoughts, Burbin! It definitely felt like Rian noticed the narrative repetition when he read the TFA script, so he carried that repetition further, to an extent, in order to get it out of the way and allow the final film to go in a new, fresh direction. But then, TROS repeated a lot of the same story beats as Return of the Jedi anyway.

For fan editing’s sake, I think it is interesting to think about possible alternative to TROS’ ending.

One option is to have both Rey and Ben live. I can see how this would be an issue for some, because it might not feel right if Ben could literally resurrect Rey without sacrificing his own life. If things were to play out the same way up to this point, I kinda of agree with the sentiment.

If you went for a Palpatine-less edit, you could have two options. One, after Rey stabs Kylo, she could leave him to die, and his conversation with Han could be him atoning at death’s door, or in the afterlife.
Or, Rey does heal him and he abandons the dark path. Then, maybe they could meet at the end, with the hint that they may forge a new kind of future together. I actually think Acbagel’s ending is rather interesting, where Rey gives her life to stop Palpatine, and Ben/Kylo’s future is left ambiguous. The Jedi/Sith feud ends on Exegol, and Ben, who is neither, is left to roam the galaxy.

There are several things you could do with the Rey/Ben story, but I feel like the Resistance/First Order subplot can’t really play out much different. Maybe the people’s fleet could recontextualized as the Republic fleet. Or, we could see the First Order actually turn on the Final Order, but I’m not sure how you would be able to get that across. I think it would be interesting if you could imply in TFA and TLJ that other Imperial Remnants exist that the First Order also conquered, and maybe we could see Star Destroyers from these Remnants help defeat the Final Order. These additions might just complicate things though.

I think one of the most inevitable things to me, after watching TFA and TLJ, was Finn leading a stormtrooper rebellion. We barely get this with Jannah, but their impact seems very limited. I wish that idea could be expanded somehow in a fan edit, but I don’t see how.

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RogueLeader said:

For fan editing’s sake, I think it is interesting to think about possible alternative to TROS’ ending.

One option is to have both Rey and Ben live. I can see how this would be an issue for some, because it might not feel right if Ben could literally resurrect Rey without sacrificing his own life. If things were to play out the same way up to this point, I kinda of agree with the sentiment.

Honestly, Rey’s death kind of comes out of absolutely nowhere. I bet it would be easy to justify her just kind of not dying.

Death of the Author

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SparkySywer said:

RogueLeader said:

For fan editing’s sake, I think it is interesting to think about possible alternative to TROS’ ending.

One option is to have both Rey and Ben live. I can see how this would be an issue for some, because it might not feel right if Ben could literally resurrect Rey without sacrificing his own life. If things were to play out the same way up to this point, I kinda of agree with the sentiment.

Honestly, Rey’s death kind of comes out of absolutely nowhere. I bet it would be easy to justify her just kind of not dying.

That is true. Perhaps one can edit it to where she isn’t dead, or at the very least, on the verge of death. I could see a version of the sequence that plays out really similarly to what we got, but maybe we can hear Rey’s faint heartbeat during the sequence. Ben heals her like she did him, her heartbeat goes back to normal, and she wakes up.

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RogueLeader said:

SparkySywer said:

RogueLeader said:

For fan editing’s sake, I think it is interesting to think about possible alternative to TROS’ ending.

One option is to have both Rey and Ben live. I can see how this would be an issue for some, because it might not feel right if Ben could literally resurrect Rey without sacrificing his own life. If things were to play out the same way up to this point, I kinda of agree with the sentiment.

Honestly, Rey’s death kind of comes out of absolutely nowhere. I bet it would be easy to justify her just kind of not dying.

That is true. Perhaps one can edit it to where she isn’t dead, or at the very least, on the verge of death. I could see a version of the sequence that plays out really similarly to what we got, but maybe we can hear Rey’s faint heartbeat during the sequence. Ben heals her like she did him, her heartbeat goes back to normal, and she wakes up.

Thanks for the idea! Definitely using this in my novelization. Otherwise there would be too many questions as to how exactly Ben could resurrect someone from the dead without dying himself.

And Sherlock, I was never denying that new ideas can’t be implemented. I think they are what make the prequels and TLJ stand out for the better. But I was talking about the overall themes when I said those things.

That’s why I wish TROS ended differently than ROTJ, wherein the redeemed villain survives to help the hero lead a new generation of Jedi. It would have been the same themes, but a unique spin on things.

Exsqueeze me.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

RogueLeader said:

SparkySywer said:

RogueLeader said:

For fan editing’s sake, I think it is interesting to think about possible alternative to TROS’ ending.

One option is to have both Rey and Ben live. I can see how this would be an issue for some, because it might not feel right if Ben could literally resurrect Rey without sacrificing his own life. If things were to play out the same way up to this point, I kinda of agree with the sentiment.

Honestly, Rey’s death kind of comes out of absolutely nowhere. I bet it would be easy to justify her just kind of not dying.

That is true. Perhaps one can edit it to where she isn’t dead, or at the very least, on the verge of death. I could see a version of the sequence that plays out really similarly to what we got, but maybe we can hear Rey’s faint heartbeat during the sequence. Ben heals her like she did him, her heartbeat goes back to normal, and she wakes up.

Thanks for the idea! Definitely using this in my novelization. Otherwise there would be too many questions as to how exactly Ben could resurrect someone from the dead without dying himself.

And Sherlock, I was never denying that new ideas can’t be implemented. I think they are what make the prequels and TLJ stand out for the better. But I was talking about the overall themes when I said those things.

That’s why I wish TROS ended differently than ROTJ, wherein the redeemed villain survives to help the hero lead a new generation of Jedi. It would have been the same themes, but a unique spin on things.

Fair point. I guess I just don’t like dredging back Palps lol. That still feels like too much to me. Be more creative, darn it! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Burbin said:

TLJ freed this new story and allowed it to become it’s own (much like Kylo in the film), it revealed that there was no set place for these characters to fit in (much like Rey in the film), no set story ‘destined’ to play out. It opened the door for the final chapter to be something new, different and original. TRoS closed that door shut, shoving everything back into the original mold: Rey goes on to be trained as a Jedi, there is some big revelation about her backstory, Kylo turns to the light, and together they defeat Snoke Palpatine, which marks the end of the First and Final Order, and the return of the Jedi and the New New Republic. The Empire is defeated by taking down the ‘big bad’ on the throne again.

I feel like you’re implying Kylo Ren was set up to be irredeemable, except we literally end with him broken, kneeling on the floor in the base.

I also feel like you’ve missed the point of Rey’s arc in TLJ, it isn’t about finding her place in all this or being important in general, it’s about letting go of her parents altogether, coming to terms that, to them, she is completely worthless — reinforcing her arc of how she eventually overcomes her irrational, toxic core belief that she is worthless and refuses her lie that she is only worth something if others think she is. She only wanted to find out as to what her importance (in a good way) is so she would use it to justify as to why her parents left her on Jakku, feeding her lie that her parents truly did love her, feeling loved, to push away her feelings of self-worthlessness that hold her back and leech off her happiness.

I do feel TRoS undermined Rey’s arc by having her parents be noble people who loved her, but the idea of her being Palpatine’s granddaughter does not; when she stabs Kylo Ren, she becomes convinced that, because of a combination of her heritage and her Force-sensitivity, she is meant to be consumed by the dark side in the way her grandfather was, so she exiles herself, believing that the Resistance is no longer going to give her any validation once she turns to the dark side — Luke proves this wrong by reminding her of Leia training her, regardless of her heritage, showing that the value of others is determined by their heart, not their heritage, and convincing her to face Palpatine and determine the fate of the galaxy, showing that it is not her heritage that determines her future, but it is she, herself, who determines it.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

Luke proves this wrong by reminding her of Leia training her, regardless of her heritage, showing that the value of others is determined by their heart, not their heritage, and convincing her to face Palpatine and determine the fate of the galaxy, showing that it is not her heritage that determines her future, but it is she, herself, who determines it.

This reminds me of something. Leia always having known she was a Palpatine specifically would never really work imo, even if they had the perfect footage/lines for it. It just comes out of nowhere and it isn’t explained how exactly she came to that conclusion - especially since Leia was never even in the presence of the Emperor.

I think what would have gone over better would be if Leia sensed a “raw strength” in her lineage, kinda like Luke did on Ahch-To. That way, she still realizes she is taking a risk by training her, but does it anyway because of her spirit and heart.

Exsqueeze me.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

This reminds me of something. Leia always having known she was a Palpatine specifically would never really work imo, even if they had the perfect footage/lines for it. It just comes out of nowhere and it isn’t explained how exactly she came to that conclusion - especially since Leia was never even in the presence of the Emperor.

That’s because Leia kept it secret, so Rey wouldn’t know she wasn’t a Palpatine.

This reminds me of something. Leia always having known she was a Palpatine specifically would never really work imo, even if they had the perfect footage/lines for it. It just comes out of nowhere and it isn’t explained how exactly she came to that conclusion - especially since Leia was never even in the presence of the Emperor.

The Force.

I think what would have gone over better would be if Leia sensed a “raw strength” in her lineage, kinda like Luke did on Ahch-To. That way, she still realizes she is taking a risk by training her, but does it anyway because of her spirit and heart.

That would undermine Rey’s arc and the point of the scene, that your value is determined by your heart and not your heritage. Key word, heritage. This is why Rey stops caring about herself being Palpatine’s granddaughter after Ahch-To.