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Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker Redux Ideas thread — Page 157

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RogueLeader said:

EDIT: Anytime I type your name I can’t help but think I’m having conversations with literal Jar Jar Binks.

Well, his last known appearance was as a street clown.

Who knows, maybe he goes on OT.com in his free time?

Exsqueeze me.

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thebluefrog said:

Movies Remastered said:
Does Kylo really mention his grandfather after TFA? I use his fight to kill Vader in my cut so not sure if it should be more of a Palpatine speech, Vader speech or kylo just doing something before opening the chest?

He doesn’t mention his grandfather much at all, actually. Which, now that it’s pointed out, is a bit weird, and probably contributed to the slightly disjointed nature of the sequel trilogy. In-Universe, the timeline is really broken: When fighting Rey, he’s obsessed with the Skywalker legacy being his life’s purpose…10 minutes later he’s smashing it up. It’s as if TLJ Kylo is not the same character as TFA Kylo when viewed as a whole narrative.

If one were to restructure the entire sequel trilogy better, the helmet smashing would be far better 1/2 through Rise.

Do you just, like, not understand movies? It’s called a character arc.

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I wonder if it would be possible to have Pryde kill Hux on Palpatine’s orders? Like, Hux wants to keep the First Order and Final Order separate; but Pryde, acting on Palpy’s orders to “Come to me on Exegol,” stages a coup, kills Hux, and seizes control of the fleet.

It would help to distinguish the First Order and Final Order more for the audience, as they basically become one and the same by this point in the movie anyway; and it would also explain why Pryde doesn’t care about arresting or interrogating the traitor who leaked huge, classified information to their enemy. What did he tell them? Are they compromised? It’s not the biggest issue in the film, but it would help to alleviate Dumb Thing #55,602 in the script.

I’m just tossing out an idea; I can’t see a way it would be possible to do this without noticeably overdubbing lines and throwing off the lip sync.

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That’s interesting. I could see that working - someone would just have to think of a phrase to the effect of “We’re going to Exegol” but that matches the lip movements of “tell him we’ve found our spy”. Challenging, but not impossible.

You’ve got to ask yourself one question: “Am I making Carrie Fisher’s ghost proud?”
Well, are ya, punk?

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Yeah, honestly I’m planning on cutting most of the Hux=Spy stuff - it feels very opposed to everything we know about the character, and it doesn’t make a whole lot of logistical sense as its own story thread. Most of that seems pretty doable I think; but I was trying to find some way of giving Hux’s character some degree of closure. Otherwise he just ends up fading away out of the script.

Poor, poor Domhnall Gleeson.

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Wanted to spur a little bit of discussion.

I feel like the ways both the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy end feels sort of inevitable. Perhaps time has added to this feeling, but Anakin falling to the dark side, and then him being redeemed by his son, feel like these are the only ways these stories could’ve gone.

When it comes to the story of the sequel trilogy and the way they end, I feel like those are harder to pin down. I know George said the sequels were about the “grandchildren” and the torch being passed to them, per se, but I can understand the struggle the writers had when trying to figure this out.

I guess I am curious to hear if people feel like the ending of TROS felt like the right or inevitable ending to them. And if not, what do you think that ending should have been? Could you potentially edit TROS to get closer to that ending you imagined?

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RogueLeader said:

Wanted to spur a little bit of discussion.

I feel like the ways both the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy end feels sort of inevitable. Perhaps time has added to this feeling, but Anakin falling to the dark side, and then him being redeemed by his son, feel like these are the only ways these stories could’ve gone.

When it comes to the story of the sequel trilogy and the way they end, I feel like those are harder to pin down. I know George said the sequels were about the “grandchildren” and the torch being passed to them, per se, but I can understand the struggle the writers had when trying to figure this out.

I guess I am curious to hear if people feel like the ending of TROS felt like the right or inevitable ending to them. And if not, what do you think that ending should have been? Could you potentially edit TROS to get closer to that ending you imagined?

Might as well announce it to the public here. I’m actually writing a version of the novelization that does just this - change the ending of the story in a significant way while also providing my interpretation of events in the story. Thanks to Capatain Faraday for the inspiration.

Anyways, to answer your question directly, I believe that the writers really missed the mark by having Ben Solo die in the end. It would have been much more compelling for Ben’s character arc in the sequels to be a foil (opposite) of Anakin’s in the prequels - beginning in darkness, rising above it, and living on after his transformation to restore light to the galaxy with a certain Palpatine by his side, if you know what I mean.

It would have allowed Anakin to have an indirect but crucial role in the storyline, and we all know this saga is supposed to be about him. His legacy being something Kylo revered in TFA was a good decision. Unfortunate that it was sidelined afterwards. Of course, in this novelization I am reconciling both his Vader worship and past killing together as the same aspiration.

Exsqueeze me.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:
Anyways, to answer your question directly, I believe that the writers really missed the mark by having Ben Solo die in the end. It would have been much more compelling for Ben’s character arc in the sequels to be a foil (opposite) of Anakin’s in the prequels - beginning in darkness, rising above it, and living on after his transformation to restore light to the galaxy with a certain Palpatine by his side, if you know what I mean.

It would have allowed Anakin to have an indirect but crucial role in the storyline, and we all know this saga is supposed to be about him. His legacy being something Kylo revered in TFA was a good decision.

Couldn’t agree more.

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I think I’m in a similar boat as both of you, personally.

I think there are two major themes or ideas that run through the Sequel Trilogy. One is this idea of Found Family, which we get with Rey’s story. The other is a Prodigal Son tale, which we get with Ben. I understand why some people feel that there is no way Ben could have lived, but I think him surviving would have been a more interesting and appropriate conclusion.

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Him living would have made me want to see more sequels (Episode X and beyond). It would have been incredibly interesting to see the (New) New Republic labeling the Jedi as a terrorist group because it was led by an ex-Nazi leader and the granddaughter of the devil himself.

Exsqueeze me.

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If confined without adjusting the previous movies (7 & 8) then I personally would not have a redeemed kylo and he is the main baddy due to the events mainly from Last Jedi.

He got rid of snoke, the one who manipulated him and was used (as Han said in 7) and when it was time to choose what to do … he wanted to stay as Space Nazi leader. Let alone wanted to “kill” Luke later … so pretty
Much without anyone manipulating him and being used by the dark side … he double downs on it.

(Of course just my opinion with the handling of Kylo)

So that is one, of the many many changes I would do if it’s strictly “rewriting” this movie. (Well honestly i would do a complete reboot of the whole trilogy, lol)

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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Sounds like you would have enjoyed Duel of the Fates, jarbear. Haha.

Exsqueeze me.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

RogueLeader said:

Wanted to spur a little bit of discussion.

I feel like the ways both the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy end feels sort of inevitable. Perhaps time has added to this feeling, but Anakin falling to the dark side, and then him being redeemed by his son, feel like these are the only ways these stories could’ve gone.

When it comes to the story of the sequel trilogy and the way they end, I feel like those are harder to pin down. I know George said the sequels were about the “grandchildren” and the torch being passed to them, per se, but I can understand the struggle the writers had when trying to figure this out.

I guess I am curious to hear if people feel like the ending of TROS felt like the right or inevitable ending to them. And if not, what do you think that ending should have been? Could you potentially edit TROS to get closer to that ending you imagined?

Might as well announce it to the public here. I’m actually writing a version of the novelization that does just this - change the ending of the story in a significant way while also providing my interpretation of events in the story. Thanks to Capatain Faraday for the inspiration.

Anyways, to answer your question directly, I believe that the writers really missed the mark by having Ben Solo die in the end. It would have been much more compelling for Ben’s character arc in the sequels to be a foil (opposite) of Anakin’s in the prequels - beginning in darkness, rising above it, and living on after his transformation to restore light to the galaxy with a certain Palpatine by his side, if you know what I mean.

It would have allowed Anakin to have an indirect but crucial role in the storyline, and we all know this saga is supposed to be about him. His legacy being something Kylo revered in TFA was a good decision. Unfortunate that it was sidelined afterwards. Of course, in this novelization I am reconciling both his Vader worship and past killing together as the same aspiration.

I feel having Ben survive misses the point. The whole point of the sequel trilogy is that this is about the legacy of the Skywalkers and how it will live on beyond the extinction of their bloodline; it is for this reason Lucasfilm decided against Rey being a blood Skywalker (note, this isn’t really a fact, but it’s an inference).

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You’re right Testing in that they were definitely intending for this saga to end with the death of the physical Skywalker bloodline and have it stand as a legacy for others to live by. But unfortunately most of them weren’t very good examples to look up to. We as the audience know this. Even Luke messed up pretty bad.

I feel like it all leaves a sour taste in your mouth at the end of the movie with the title The Rise of Skywalker. Yes, Rey picks up the name, but we all know that she isn’t a real Skywalker by blood. IMO, it is more of a positive ending for the Skywalker bloodline for Ben to learn from the mistakes of the past and be given another shot at creating a better galaxy.

Exsqueeze me.

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I felt like what made Return of the Jedi’s ending special was, when you boiled it down, it is about the atonement between a father and a son. This big, epic legend of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader made it fun to watch, but the father-son dynamic made it personal and relatable by the end of it.

So, if you try to boil down the sequel trilogy and TROS, I think you have to ask yourself what it’s trying to say about family. What lessons does it have that can be applied to our own families?

I think a big thing is the idea that family can be more than blood, and how Rey was kind of adopted into the Skywalker family.

At the same time, we see a reversal of the Luke-Vader dynamic with Ben and his parents. Vader didn’t necessarily deserve Luke’s love and forgiveness, but he still gave it to him. Ben didn’t necessarily deserve his parents love and forgiveness, but they still gave it to him. I think there is a nice message there, where parents and children can make amends despite the mistakes they’ve made, whether they hurt each other or something else.

On the other hand, I can see the value in wanting a story where you have Kylo die not redeemed, with the message that it’s okay to not try to help someone anymore after a certain point if they’re being toxic. As a parent, I don’t know if George would’ve gone that route had he done the Sequel Trilogy, but it definitely comes down to one’s own personal values and philosophy. With Kylo’s story being a reverse Vader story, where he starts conflicted and becomes full-blown villain, it does make sense that he wouldn’t be redeemed in the end. But I also like the idea of a villain having to live and atone of his sins, fighting his wrongs, or living in exile.

To me, the Skywalker Saga isn’t a story about some epic, godlike bloodline. It’s about our own families. And they’re lessons that should be applicable to our own family relationships.

EDIT: With all that said, I think edits with different endings would be cool to see. I’d love to see an edit where Kylo dies without redemption, or one where he lives. I even like Acbagel’s ending, where Rey dies and Ben lives.

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I think the biggest failing of TROS was bringing back Palpatine. Kylo was set up in TLJ to be the ultimate villain, and then he was just sidelined in favor of “rotting grandpa GLaDOS.”

I don’t think it’s wrong for Kylo to be redeemed, so I disagree with Dual of the Fates; but I also think he has to more than just redeem himself - he has to fail before he can be saved. TROS should have been the culmination of a really interesting negative character arc; and instead, he just spends the entire movie chasing after Rey. Then his mom dies, and he just…snaps out of it, I guess?

If I were writing the script, it would have focused on Kylo trying to be the Big, Bad, Supreme Leader, but failing at it. The galaxy, inspired by Luke, is revolting everywhere he looks, and the First Order is spread way too thin. The First Order Generals and Admirals are all starting to question his abilities to lead; Hux is planning a coup, and is waiting for the right time to strike. Kylo is stressing out. He was already somewhat unstable (as seen in TFA), but now he’s just going crazy. Any time someone questions his orders, he cuts them down. And the more he loses control, the more the First Order splinters, the stronger the Resistance grows. He’s the maker of his own downfall.

Because he was wrong to pursue this path. He was wrong to join the First Order. He was wrong to seek this power, power that he’s not equipped to wield. And, try as he might to ignore that fact, over the course of the film, he has to finally come to terms with it.

When he finally turns back to the light, he does it in order to save his mother (building off of that moment in TLJ). And then, he sacrifices himself not just to save one person, but to undo all of the damage that he’s done to the galaxy, to atone for his sins. His final act is to destroy what remains of the First Order at the cost of his own life. Leia survives, and goes on to rebuild the Republic (correctly, this time); and Ben is able to visit her as a Ghost.

I really don’t have any major issues with VII or VIII overall (even if they could be improved upon); but IX was the only film in the bunch to truly fail for me.

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I personally just dislike the idea that Ben had to die to atone for his sins as Kylo. He was a young man. Should he feel regret about his choices for the rest of his life? Absolutely. But he should channel that into doing positive things for the galaxy.

Vader was a completely different circumstance. Living in his body was a living hell, and he had already spent the other half of his life trying to be a good person as a Jedi. He was also old enough for his death to not be so tragic.

Exsqueeze me.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

I personally just dislike the idea that Kylo had to die to atone for his sins. He was a young man. Should he feel regret about his choices for the rest of his life? Absolutely. But he should channel that into doing positive things for the galaxy.

Vader was a completely different circumstance. Living in his body was a living hell, and he had already spent the other half of his life trying to be a good person as a Jedi. He was also old enough for his death to not be so tragic.

Yeah, while I bemoan Ben’s death a lot, at least it was Ben’s death and not Kylo’s. TROS would’ve been truly awful/irredeemable in my eyes if he hadn’t been redeemed to some degree lol. I’m like, hey, we got his redemption in a really good scene with Han, we got him absolutely fucking up the knights, we got the Reylo kiss! Did I want him to talk with Anakin? Of course. Should he have lived? Absolutely. Why didn’t he have a single line of dialogue (ow)? No clue. But it could’ve been way worse :S

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I really like your thoughts on the matter, Sherlock!

Instead of the father saving the son, you would have the son save the mother.

I agree that IX would’ve been more interesting to focus solely on Kylo trying to be the big bad as everything fell apart around him. I feel like this could still be accomplished somewhat in a “Palpatine-less” edit, like joshuabri’s edit. I think simply removing Palpatine’s influence naturally gives Kylo a lot more agency in the film. Hopefully joshuabri’s work can lead to more edits that are even more polished.

If I were to do it, I think I would have Kylo not kill Rey out of a brief moment of self-reflection, rather than Leia calling out to him to basically say, “Don’t do that.”

Has anyone done an edit where Leia lives? I’m not really sure how you would manage to do it, though.

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Brewzter said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I personally just dislike the idea that Kylo had to die to atone for his sins. He was a young man. Should he feel regret about his choices for the rest of his life? Absolutely. But he should channel that into doing positive things for the galaxy.

Vader was a completely different circumstance. Living in his body was a living hell, and he had already spent the other half of his life trying to be a good person as a Jedi. He was also old enough for his death to not be so tragic.

Yeah, while I bemoan Ben’s death a lot, at least it was Ben’s death and not Kylo’s. TROS would’ve been truly awful/irredeemable in my eyes if he hadn’t been redeemed to some degree lol. I’m like, hey, we got his redemption in a really good scene with Han, we got him absolutely fucking up the knights, we got the Reylo kiss! Did I want him to talk with Anakin? Of course. Should he have lived? Absolutely. Why didn’t he have a single line of dialogue (ow)? No clue. But it could’ve been way worse :S

Thanks for mentioning the Anakin ghost. That’s the other thing I’ll be changing in my edit of the novelization. While I absolutely adore the Han interaction as well, I’m putting a lot of focus on Kylo worshipping Vader’s ambition. So there has to be some sort of point in the story where Anakin tells him how much he wishes he could go back and never have made those terrible decisions.

I’ll probably make my own thread soon outlining all of these details.

Exsqueeze me.

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sherlockpotter said:

I think the biggest failing of TROS was bringing back Palpatine. Kylo was set up in TLJ to be the ultimate villain, and then he was just sidelined in favor of “rotting grandpa GLaDOS.”

I don’t think it’s wrong for Kylo to be redeemed, so I disagree with Dual of the Fates; but I also think he has to more than just redeem himself - he has to fail before he can be saved. TROS should have been the culmination of a really interesting negative character arc; and instead, he just spends the entire movie chasing after Rey. Then his mom dies, and he just…snaps out of it, I guess?

If I were writing the script, it would have focused on Kylo trying to be the Big, Bad, Supreme Leader, but failing at it. The galaxy, inspired by Luke, is revolting everywhere he looks, and the First Order is spread way too thin. The First Order Generals and Admirals are all starting to question his abilities to lead; Hux is planning a coup, and is waiting for the right time to strike. Kylo is stressing out. He was already somewhat unstable (as seen in TFA), but now he’s just going crazy. Any time someone questions his orders, he cuts them down. And the more he loses control, the more the First Order splinters, the stronger the Resistance grows. He’s the maker of his own downfall.

Because he was wrong to pursue this path. He was wrong to join the First Order. He was wrong to seek this power, power that he’s not equipped to wield. And, try as he might to ignore that fact, over the course of the film, he has to finally come to terms with it.

When he finally turns back to the light, he does it in order to save his mother (building off of that moment in TLJ). And then, he sacrifices himself not just to save one person, but to undo all of the damage that he’s done to the galaxy, to atone for his sins. His final act is to destroy what remains of the First Order at the cost of his own life. Leia survives, and goes on to rebuild the Republic (correctly, this time); and Ben is able to visit her as a Ghost.

I really don’t have any major issues with VII or VIII overall (even if they could be improved upon); but IX was the only film in the bunch to truly fail for me.

Palpatine needed to be brought back. By bringing him back this ties the entire Skywalker saga together and gives IX a sense of true finality; he also needed to be related to Rey, to reinforce her toxic core belief that she is worthless. It also pays off RotS, in which he was set up to have a power to keep himself alive in a way Plagueis couldn’t.

Regarding the “tying the Skywalker saga together” thing, Abrams said this:

…when you look at this as nine chapters of a story, perhaps the weirder thing would be if Palpatine didn’t return. You just look at what he talks about, who he is, how important he is, what the story is — strangely, his absence entirely from the third trilogy would be conspicuous.

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I do agree with you Testing that Palpatine needed to be brought back to some extent. The story of the overall saga needs to be rooted with Anakin and his struggle with the devil (Palpatine).

So they got part of that done right… but then missed the mark completely by not having Anakin included to a certain extent with this generation going up against him.

Yet again, I refer back to Kylo who should have essentially been the stand-in character for Anakin. And I feel that would have been conveyed much more clearly if he survived.

Exsqueeze me.

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I think you guys are just trying to rationalize a lazy storytelling decision.

If they wanted to bring him back, maybe they could have set it up better, but it clearly was a decision they didn’t make until the last movie.

You guys talk about how it ties everything in, and good for the poetry and rhyming, I suppose. But I think bringing him back actually hurt the development of the new characters. It gave them less time and agency to come into their own. By the end of it, the new characters are still just overshadow by the legacy characters. I mean, good for you guys to see the silver lining, and maybe there could’ve been a good way to bring him back, but this wasn’t it imo.

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No, Palpatine did not need to be brought back. Returning the Big Bad just to knock him down again is the easy answer to the difficult question of how to bring peace to a galaxy fractured by war. It implies that the only thing truly wrong with the attempts at peace was one dude who was always behind everything and if he were to die everything would be all unicorns and rainbows.

In the end, it isn’t individual people who are a threat to peace, not really. It is much more the systems that subvert democracy and the twisted incentives prioritizing armed conflict over negotiation. TLJ was on the right track with this necessary argument, despite how poorly it was implemented. Palpatine’s return, along with his magic fleet, throws this necessary perspective in the garbage.

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