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Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker Redux Ideas thread — Page 127

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JakeRyan17 said:

Or it’s just looking at basic storytelling. Things get set up, then paid off. If something is established one way for 8/9 films, a sudden change at the end of the last film will make people question it.

When it comes to powers, especially in a scene where under-developed powers are are already a major focus, adding another new and unestablished element will distract away from what’s going on. If sucking that much life out of them gave him so much more power that things have changed, why does he need them to kill him to get a new body? He’s beyond rejuvenated, what’s the point? This type of change gets in the way of storytelling.

And we can play the ageist game of “back in my day…” or whatever. That’s irrelevant. The purpose of the scene is that Palpatine gets rejuvenated. If he goes beyond rejuvenation to more powerful than before, his motives for the rest of the film no longer make sense. It’s always been implied Palpatine was stronger than he let on in other films, and he didn’t do the crazy antics like he does with the fleet, because he never needed to and it would go against his goals in those films.

I didn’t intend for my comment to be a “kids these days” comment, but even typing it I saw the similarities. And trust me, I was revolted at making an almost “kids these days” comment. Juvenoia sucks.

But I genuinely think moviemaking in the 2010s has changed, especially with fantasy stories, to appeal to this new audience of people who need to be spoon-fed every piece of information. And I genuinely think there’s been a transformation here because there’s tons of stuff that just goes unexplained in older movies that would never fly in today’s film industry. Hell, Force Lightning itself fits your definition of a new, unexplained element that changes the motivations of the villain in the third act of (what was meant to be) the final film. But audiences in 1983 used their brains and figured out what Palpatine was doing (summoning lightning) and why he was doing it (his goal isn’t just to kill Luke, but to make it hurt, although according to everything that’s come out after RotJ it might as well be his signature move or his stand or whatever).

I can easily imagine today’s audiences seeing this for the first time and saying something like “Oh, they just pulled a new superpower out of their asses as an excuse to give Vader the chance to kill Palpatine.” Hell, I’ve run into zoomers who say Empire is the most boringest one saying this about a bunch of stuff in the OT.

“They just invented the Force as a reason why Luke could blow up the Death Star!” (no seriously, someone said this to me and they weren’t joking)

I partially also blame the prequels and EU for ruining people’s perception of what the Force is. It’s not some hard magic like Harry Potter or Dragonball Z. When a character has a new “Force ability”, it’s not like they’re pulling some new power out of their ass. I’d really love to elaborate and go on a rant, seriously I’d love to, but it’s not that relevant.

I don’t mean to direct any of this at you. I’m not accusing you of any of this.

More relevant to your problems with it being unclear in particular, I don’t think it’s unclear. Red = danger, red lightning = more dangerous, or more powerful lightning.

Like I said before, you don’t need more of a reason to do it than it looking pretty, but it also reinforces the scene. We have supercharged Palpatine, and his lightning being red is supercharged lightning. Hammers it home.

thebluefrog said:

Brewzter said:

It’s instant-gratification social media in general. People have self-inflicted ADD and do not have the time to actually digest the latest media, they just want quick explanations and then forget about it 48 hours later. It’s why READING is becoming a problem in society as people can barely focus on a book, much less an article–notice how articles come with “5 min read / 10 min read” at the top nowadays?

Absolutely, people are completely losing any attention span. I’ve shown two different friends the saga for the first time recently and both of them couldn’t watch the movies for more than a couple minutes max without looking at their phones constantly.

They also don’t WANT to find details. Like, they’ll miss things and be confused, but can just ask someone to explain and boom, they’ve got their answer and lost interest.

Caring about the details is becoming a lost part of the artform.

Sometimes they’ll just fall asleep in the movie theater and then complain about something that was literally explained in the movie. Half the time they might as well have been looking right at the camera explaining it. You see this a lot in modern movie criticisms.

Death of the Author

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StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

It’s a name that was created for that storyline. Palpatine, much like the term Sith, was used for the OT and its marketing materials. Sidious was treated as his truer name, with Palpatine being more of the disguise.

Not to get too technical, but the name Palpatine was actually first used in the 90’s EU.

No, it was first used in the prologue of the 1976 novelization of Star Wars. So technically the name Palpatine predates any of the films, even if it wasn’t used in a film until 1999.

a trolling bantha

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The difference with Return of the Jedi and The Emperor’s first use of lightning is that he is a new character. It’s established as he’s being established. Red Lightning would be introducing something different to what had been established before. That’s the point. If it had always been red, or always fluctuated colour between characters, this would be different.

And I get what you mean, but there are still different ways of establishing without “spoon-feeding”. Even using the example above, the change is what needs to be established again— because it’s changing something we’re already familiar with. If the Red Lightning is more dangerous, that should impact the stakes of the film, and be reacted to as being more dangerous, but that doesn’t happen. Also, part of the film’s plot revolves around Rey worrying that she is inherently evil. It matters that when she sees lighting directed at her, that it matches the Lightning she used.

Establishing unexplained things as the way they are is simply different to changing established concepts and powers.

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He prioritised looks over story at every turn, and the films are so shallow because of it.

And I bet it still isn’t particular good on mute compared to the others. RotS is probably still the best without sound.

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JakeRyan17 said:

Red Lightning would be introducing something different to what had been established before.

I think him sucking the life out of Rey and Ben is a good enough establishment for Red Lightning.

Also, part of the film’s plot revolves around Rey worrying that she is inherently evil. It matters that when she sees lighting directed at her, that it matches the Lightning she used.

This is a pretty good reason against the red lightning, although I have some grumbly things to say about it in and of itself.

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

A lot of Luke’s motivations were solidified by the conversation where he uses Sidious’ name: and describes the plot of the prequels. Abrams did everything he could to ignore as much of the saga as he could. He remade A New Hope, gave some nostalgia, didn’t complete any character arcs, then four years later strings together something that references his movie and a scene from RotS. He prioritised looks over story at every turn, and the films are so shallow because of it. Johnson told a story, even if people didn’t like the story he told. There are layers and connections to evolving the saga as a whole.

Also, TFA isn’t a remake of ANH. I have no idea how that idea became so common.

100% agree. It’s the hill I’ll die on. Something I’d really love to do is make something like a Youtube video arguing my case, because Youtube videos are super easy to spread or digest.

Death of the Author

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DZ-330 said:

thebluefrog said:

Sith was never said in the OT…

Actually, there is a deleted scene from the conference room where a Sith Lord is mentioned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Erf6s_wYJk

Yeah, I’ve seen that clip. Good stuff, should’ve been in the film.

It’s unlikely the internet nerds of 1977 were able to pass the clip around, though…so “Sith” was still definitely unknown to the majority of the world until Phantom.

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thebluefrog said:

DZ-330 said:

thebluefrog said:

Sith was never said in the OT…

Actually, there is a deleted scene from the conference room where a Sith Lord is mentioned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Erf6s_wYJk

Yeah, I’ve seen that clip. Good stuff, should’ve been in the film.

It’s unlikely the internet nerds of 1977 were able to pass the clip around, though…so “Sith” was still definitely unknown to the majority of the world until Phantom.

“Sith” was on trading cards and toys that were released even prior to A New Hope. It didn’t spread over the internet, but it was known by the nerds and collectors of the time. Same with Palpatine’s name.

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JakeRyan17 said:
If the Red Lightning is more dangerous, that should impact the stakes of the film, and be reacted to as being more dangerous

How could it have been perceived as any more dangerous than it is? He saps their life force and then single-handedly disables an entire fleet of thousands of ships.

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Brewzter said:

JakeRyan17 said:
If the Red Lightning is more dangerous, that should impact the stakes of the film, and be reacted to as being more dangerous

How could it have been perceived as any more dangerous than it is? He saps their life force and then single-handedly disables an entire fleet of thousands of ships.

The film as is doesn’t present him as more powerful, just directing that power to other places. If we see something new and different, our characters should react as if it’s new and different.

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Anakin Starkiller said:

This is about as productive as an average political debate.

I’d go further: It’s about as productive as the Trump vs Biden debate.
JakeRyan is Trump in this scenario.

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ChainsawAsh said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

It’s a name that was created for that storyline. Palpatine, much like the term Sith, was used for the OT and its marketing materials. Sidious was treated as his truer name, with Palpatine being more of the disguise.

Not to get too technical, but the name Palpatine was actually first used in the 90’s EU.

No, it was first used in the prologue of the 1976 novelization of Star Wars. So technically the name Palpatine predates any of the films, even if it wasn’t used in a film until 1999.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic. Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears (George Lucas [Alan Dean Foster], Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker (paperback; New York: Del Rey, 1976), p. 1, ISBN 0-345-26079-1.)

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thebluefrog said:

ChainsawAsh said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

It’s a name that was created for that storyline. Palpatine, much like the term Sith, was used for the OT and its marketing materials. Sidious was treated as his truer name, with Palpatine being more of the disguise.

Not to get too technical, but the name Palpatine was actually first used in the 90’s EU.

No, it was first used in the prologue of the 1976 novelization of Star Wars. So technically the name Palpatine predates any of the films, even if it wasn’t used in a film until 1999.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic. Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears (George Lucas [Alan Dean Foster], Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker (paperback; New York: Del Rey, 1976), p. 1, ISBN 0-345-26079-1.)

That’s actually really interesting. Supports both the idea that George Lucas had it planned out (in that he had a good idea as to Palpatine rose to power) and the idea that George Lucas was making it up as he went along (because he hadn’t yet decided that Palpatine was an evil mastermind).

You’ve got to ask yourself one question: “Am I making Carrie Fisher’s ghost proud?”
Well, are ya, punk?

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Ed Slushie said:

thebluefrog said:

ChainsawAsh said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

It’s a name that was created for that storyline. Palpatine, much like the term Sith, was used for the OT and its marketing materials. Sidious was treated as his truer name, with Palpatine being more of the disguise.

Not to get too technical, but the name Palpatine was actually first used in the 90’s EU.

No, it was first used in the prologue of the 1976 novelization of Star Wars. So technically the name Palpatine predates any of the films, even if it wasn’t used in a film until 1999.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic. Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears (George Lucas [Alan Dean Foster], Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker (paperback; New York: Del Rey, 1976), p. 1, ISBN 0-345-26079-1.)

That’s actually really interesting. Supports both the idea that George Lucas had it planned out (in that he had a good idea as to Palpatine rose to power) and the idea that George Lucas was making it up as he went along (because he hadn’t yet decided that Palpatine was an evil mastermind).

Also, in the 1983 novelization for Return of the Jedi by James Kahn:

The Emperor sat, regarding this view, as Vader approached from behind. The Lord of the Sith kneeled and waited. The Emperor let him wait. He perused the vista before him with a sense of glory beyond all reckoning: this was all his. And more glorious still, all his by his own hand.

For it wasn’t always so. Back in the days when he was merely Senator Palpatine, the galaxy had been a Republic of stars, cared for and protected by the Jedi Knighthood that had watched over it for centuries. But inevitably it had grown too large - too massive a bureaucracy had been required, over too many years, in order to maintain the Republic. Corruption had set in.

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StarkillerAG said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

This is about as productive as an average political debate.

I’d go further: It’s about as productive as the Trump vs Biden debate.
JakeRyan is Trump in this scenario.

Because THAT statement is productive. 🙄

I’m only disagreeing about concepts and content, I’m not actively trying to be an asshole to you.

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JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

This is about as productive as an average political debate.

I’d go further: It’s about as productive as the Trump vs Biden debate.
JakeRyan is Trump in this scenario.

Because THAT statement is productive. 🙄

I’m only disagreeing about concepts and content, I’m not actively trying to be an asshole to you.

But we’re just saying stuff like “I think it looks cool” while you’re saying “BUT ACTUALLY, there’s never been any red lighting in the movies before, so you can’t just show it without any explanation, OBJECTIVELY WRONG!”

Completely ignoring the fact that new Force powers have shown up all the time without explanation in these movies, and that’s how Force lightning became part of the franchise in the first place. That’s why I made that comparison, because it just feels like you’re sucking the fun out of a potentially neat idea.

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StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

This is about as productive as an average political debate.

I’d go further: It’s about as productive as the Trump vs Biden debate.
JakeRyan is Trump in this scenario.

Because THAT statement is productive. 🙄

I’m only disagreeing about concepts and content, I’m not actively trying to be an asshole to you.

But we’re just saying stuff like “I think it looks cool” while you’re saying “BUT ACTUALLY, there’s never been any red lighting in the movies before, so you can’t just show it without any explanation, OBJECTIVELY WRONG!”

Completely ignoring the fact that new Force powers have shown up all the time without explanation in these movies, and that’s how Force lightning became part of the franchise in the first place. That’s why I made that comparison, because it just feels like you’re sucking the fun out of a potentially neat idea.

And i didn’t resort to attacking you as a person, I talked about storytelling techniques and why introducing something that impacts the plot is different to changing something that had already been established. It’s not a new power, and if it is… it should be presented as a new power. But it isn’t.

You’re countering that with “it looks cool, and you’re like Donald Trump for disagreeing!” 🙄

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JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

This is about as productive as an average political debate.

I’d go further: It’s about as productive as the Trump vs Biden debate.
JakeRyan is Trump in this scenario.

Because THAT statement is productive. 🙄

I’m only disagreeing about concepts and content, I’m not actively trying to be an asshole to you.

But we’re just saying stuff like “I think it looks cool” while you’re saying “BUT ACTUALLY, there’s never been any red lighting in the movies before, so you can’t just show it without any explanation, OBJECTIVELY WRONG!”

Completely ignoring the fact that new Force powers have shown up all the time without explanation in these movies, and that’s how Force lightning became part of the franchise in the first place. That’s why I made that comparison, because it just feels like you’re sucking the fun out of a potentially neat idea.

And i didn’t resort to attacking you as a person, I talked about storytelling techniques and why introducing something that impacts the plot is different to changing something that had already been established. It’s not a new power, and if it is… it should be presented as a new power. But it isn’t.

You’re countering that with “it looks cool, and you’re like Donald Trump for disagreeing!” 🙄

But I already established that new powers can show up in Star Wars with no explanation. Force levitation showed up, and no one treated it like it was anything new. Force lightning showed up, and no one treated it like it was anything new. Force running showed up, and no one treated it like it was anything new. The list goes on. Red lightning isn’t really a new power anyway, and it doesn’t affect the plot, it’s just an aesthetic choice to highlight Palpatine’s power.

And the Trump comparison was a bit too extreme. But AniStar had just mentioned political debates, so it was right there.

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StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

This is about as productive as an average political debate.

I’d go further: It’s about as productive as the Trump vs Biden debate.
JakeRyan is Trump in this scenario.

Because THAT statement is productive. 🙄

I’m only disagreeing about concepts and content, I’m not actively trying to be an asshole to you.

But we’re just saying stuff like “I think it looks cool” while you’re saying “BUT ACTUALLY, there’s never been any red lighting in the movies before, so you can’t just show it without any explanation, OBJECTIVELY WRONG!”

Completely ignoring the fact that new Force powers have shown up all the time without explanation in these movies, and that’s how Force lightning became part of the franchise in the first place. That’s why I made that comparison, because it just feels like you’re sucking the fun out of a potentially neat idea.

And i didn’t resort to attacking you as a person, I talked about storytelling techniques and why introducing something that impacts the plot is different to changing something that had already been established. It’s not a new power, and if it is… it should be presented as a new power. But it isn’t.

You’re countering that with “it looks cool, and you’re like Donald Trump for disagreeing!” 🙄

But I already established that new powers can show up in Star Wars with no explanation. Force levitation showed up, and no one treated it like it was anything new. Force lightning showed up, and no one treated it like it was anything new. Force running showed up, and no one treated it like it was anything new. The list goes on. Red lightning isn’t really a new power anyway, and it doesn’t affect the plot, it’s just an aesthetic choice to highlight Palpatine’s power.

And the Trump comparison was a bit too extreme. But AniStar had just mentioned political debates, so it was right there.

If it was a new power, being treated like a new power and being reacted to accordingly, I’d agree with you. But it isn’t. Rey is prepared and recognises it, from her experience with Snoke and her own earlier use.

Looking at these other examples of new powers being established: people react to them. It affects what’s going on. Changing an established power in the middle of the climax, doing it without the ability to make characters react to the change, it just doesn’t work for me.

Being a dick because it’s easy to be a dick isn’t a great excuse.

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How is changing the look of an established thing to make it “new” makes sense? That’s like Vader’s lighter saber turning black during the final battle cuz … he’s fighting for the emperor/reasons!

If you wanna change the look for something cuz it looks cool … that’s your choice and go for it with your own edit … and this is a general redux thread for the movie … but trying to justify it and be angry that people don’t agree using valid reasoning is silly and bad story telling/writing.

Do NOT self-destruct!

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Let’s not call people Trump, please.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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StarkillerAG said:

Hal 9000 said:

Let’s not call people Trump, please.

I know, it was an exaggeration. I shouldn’t have said that.

“Exaggeration” doesn’t quite capture the jump from “I don’t like the change in colour because it doesn’t make story sense” to a homophobic white supremacist that’s killed over 210,000 people this year… 🙄