Sign In

Star Wars - The Lost Cut is not exactly what you think it is....

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I have just made quite an astonishing discovery and It backs up my thoughts on this whole “Lost Cut” that everyone would love to see.

Ok let’s look at the opening…

As Mike Verta correctly noticed there is element flashes that are out of synch by about 14 frames… So this is Just a simple error but when it comes to the lost cut get this!

As we carry on to the next shot the Tantive is shooting back at the star destroyer and the Star destroyer is shooting back at the Tantive…

OK the sound mix was made for the “lost cut” so as the Tantive leaves screen we cut to the Tantive in Space then back to the Star destroyer for it’s Last Flurry of Lasers then Back to the Tantive being hit and the explosion.

The soundmix was made for it to be a to and fro cut away as the sound does not match the video unless we make 2 extra cuts and rearrange the footage according to the soundmix.

So although the mystery about the lost cut is what was in it, it is’nt so much that. It has more to do with how it was simply different, but yes it does have missing scenes but these were covered with alternate footage so the lost cut might only be a small bit longer in my opinion. But also yes it does have extra scenes but not all that much more and it is still very much the film you saw but with a few differences in obvious places .

But the discovery of the to and fro cut between the ships is really for me a door to a greater understanding and how the lost cut is there already it’s just in a different order with a few alternatives.

This is a small bit of star wars history being discovered.

Basically It comes down to identifying redundancy within the film and taking a lead from the audio mix, but all I can say is it’s different but not by all that much. It’s all there just in a different order and a few small extra tidbits scattered through out.

Author
Time

Where are you getting your information about the lost cut from? Sorry, but it’s completely wrong. There was no sound mix done for the Lost cut. It was mainly on set audio but also silent in a lot of places. The cut was put together with what footage was available at the time (1976). There were only a handful of FX shots in the cut, with the ones that were being mostly unfinished or rough versions. They hadn’t even finished shooting the live action stuff, so many shots were just slates where a shot needed to be inserted later. The opening scene had NO laser fire or flashes added until the final shot where it was hit. Footage from the B&W lost cut has been released ( The cantina scene and a section of the opening battle, Luke & the Treadwell scene that’s in B&W) including the whole Tantive IV chase), so we know exactly what the opening of the lost cut looked like.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

Author
Time
 (Edited)

well perhaps I am misunderstanding what the lost cut is…

But essentially what I noticed was towards the end of the second shot the sound mix no longer matches the action. after the red lasers hit is splice point 1 to tantive shot in space splice point 2 is just before the laser appears on screen. Obviously I am assuming that each shot is spliced at the beginning and end also.

we then move the shots to be a to and fro / back and fourth and this then matches the sound mix.

you will notice also the star destroyer green laser that suddenly get’s covered over with red laser so it may have been that a further shot was planned of cutting away.

But the sound mix was made for a version that was assembled like this cutting back and fourth. So there was a different version of the opening which for some reason was un-spliced but the sound was not re-mixed or the splices were not replicated to conform to the edit Ben Burrt was working on.

I am not so interested in the black and white version. I am more interested in shots that were used to cover up alternative material of which there are not that many I don’t think.

Author
Time

‘The Lost Cut’ is a general term used for the assembly cut created by John Jympson. It is about as rough as it comes.

What I think you’re describing is a later cut either scored by John Williams or screened for Lucas’ friends and the FOX executives. Watching some footage and pictures of Williams’ scoring does show that there a few effects shots which were revised before release and the presence of some tracks (‘Land of the Sand People’ on the original album) indicates that several scenes were still much longer when the scoring process began.

By all accounts the early Tattooine scenes were scrapped before the later stages of post-productions, and until evidence of otherwise comes to light I’m inclined to think those scenes were scrapped very early in post-production.

There is a lot of evidence that the search for Artoo was much longer, including the presence of a graphic for the Landspeeder readout in the Visual Dictionary and there being some high quality color screencaps available for the original 1998 Lost Cut article despite the same article claiming the cut itself to be black and white. The same goes for some other shots that are clearly screen captures; Luke and Han congratulating each other after the battle, Luke deciding to leave the restraining bolt off of Threepio, miscellaneous shots from the climax, etc. These are the kind of things that would be present in these later cuts; smaller trims that to some might not even be noticeable, perhaps even with post-production elements mixed in like ADR dialogue or some rudimentary sound mixing.

I’m just here because I’m driving tonight.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

This is exactly what I mean that even though there were revisions in this case It was not fully revised because we have a section where the sound and the video stop having their unique relationship to one another.

But really I just find that some shots we’re shoved in randomly to cover up stuff they did not have i.e. effects shots. Or shot’s left out mild censorship.

Here is an example… The death star gunners are shooting - We then cut to Wedge in the Death Star Trench who is not there at this time and then we cut to an x-wing on the Death Star surface which may I add is for the preceiding shot for where porkin’s dies.

So in this Calamity although it kind of works on the face of it…It’s obvious that the narrative should be if the Death Star gunner had simply destroyed an x-wing then Luke making his attack on the gunners which comes after would be the justified cheer because he was destroying the bad guys. So obvious stuff is pretty obvious. It has more to do with narrative but it’s a shame that these moments ended up like this. But to me it’s obvious narrative stuff, it’s small stuff really but what is meant to be there has been covered over with shot’s that are not supposed to be there…

And there could be more where the sound does not match the action watch out for them because this is the lost cut. The black and white one is just a rough cut.

I don’t particularly care too much for the actual deleted scenes that are released I care more about the deleted scenes that are covered over with other stuff and how that effects the sequences that got broken.

Author
Time

Where are you getting your information? Sorry, but it’s completely wrong.

Ronster in a nutshell.

“After a time, you may find that having, is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.” - Spock

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Handman said:

Where are you getting your information? Sorry, but it’s completely wrong.

Ronster in a nutshell.

I am actually 100% correct, I will post a video later on about the splices that the soundmix was created for. Go and try it for yourself a have fun.

Well only if you are bothered about the sound and video in unison that is.

Is there any truth to the Canadian version including the bigg’s scenes on tattooine or is this one of those rumours?

Author
Time

Ronster said:

Handman said:

Where are you getting your information? Sorry, but it’s completely wrong.

Ronster in a nutshell.

I am actually 100% correct, I will post a video later on about the splices that the soundmix was created for. Go and try it for yourself a have fun.

Well only if you are bothered about the sound and video in unison that is.

Is there any truth to the Canadian version including the bigg’s scenes on tattooine or is this one of those rumours?

There are many such rumors. The main ones are-

  • Leia spitting on Vader during their meeting on the Tantive. Novelization detail, one of the most bizarre ones too.
  • Luke missing the first time during their chasm swing. This is from the novelization entirely. It’s not in the script or the comic adaptation.
  • Any one of the Biggs scenes being present, either the Tattooine or Massassi ones. It got bad enough that some official publications claimed the later scene was present in the 1977 cut and cut out for the rerelease. At this point, totally unsubstantiated. The Biggs scenes were out of the film way before any significant post-production happened. They are in just about every piece of tie-in media, so it’s not hard to see why people would remember them being in the film.
  • Vader’s TIE exploding during the ending. I can imagine why this one happened, since I imagine most everyone back then would have expected this to happen.

I’m just here because I’m driving tonight.

Author
Time

It’s a good rumour list. And It’s not surprising.

I do wonder at what point in time the Biggs scenes was taken out. I think it will be interesting to see how it might of worked re-integrated but all in all parts of that story remain in the film and I can see why people feel an importance of that part more than any other.

Author
Time

I have absolutely no proof for this so feel free to ignore this post, but the bootleg version I used to watch on my VCR in the early 90’s was a bit different. During the chasm jump Luke first missed, then Leia kissed him, then he tried again, this time he made it and Leia kissed him again, “for luck”. I remember thinking it’s funny what a young guy can do when he’s “properly motivated”. The second difference was during the meeting before the Death Star attack. After the wamp rats comment Luke and the pilot next to him shook hands and introduced themselves. And I’m pretty sure the guy introduced himself as “Wedge”, and I was pretty confused that there are 2 different pilots named Wedge. The third and last change I remember was the third Biggs scene right before they go inside the ships. I was very confused when back in 1997 I found online a list of SE changes and this scene was listed there - to me, it was always a part of the movie. I actually had a feeling that it originally was a bit longer.

The tape doesn’t exist anymore, I replaced it with the first official VHS tapes when they were released here and later with the SE tapes, so I have absolutely no proof that these are something else than messed up memories, but if you want a rumour list, here are mine.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

You obviously are not alone and although I have no memory of the things that you speak of. The content exists for those moments apart from the wedge scene but we also know that wedge was swapped out for dennis lawson so nothing you are saying is rubbish.

One can only assume this must have been some kind of broadcadt version, if your memory is not failing you.

Many of the claims do actually relate to missing content which has surfaced and exists where as many claims do appear to be misremembering. But the claims about content that has actually now surfaced obviously can not be lies. or it’s a case of knowing it was diffetent and also mistemembeting.

I found myself in this situation before with a broadcast version that was slightly different.

Subtle differences are interesting and especially if it involves dialogue or a joke or action. My conclusion is there is a pre-release version that was different and was a bit more ambitious in a few parts but ultimately had to be dialed back or altered as special effects were not finished or censorship was applied.

But in terms of extra snippets you speak of the chasm or death star core is a very important scene which failed to re-appear before the death star exploded. This is also another part where I found some very interesting things in relation of the sound and the video.

actually it failed to appear at all.

Author
Time

pittrek said:

I have absolutely no proof for this so feel free to ignore this post, but the bootleg version I used to watch on my VCR in the early 90’s was a bit different. During the chasm jump Luke first missed, then Leia kissed him, then he tried again, this time he made it and Leia kissed him again, “for luck”. I remember thinking it’s funny what a young guy can do when he’s “properly motivated”. The second difference was during the meeting before the Death Star attack. After the wamp rats comment Luke and the pilot next to him shook hands and introduced themselves. And I’m pretty sure the guy introduced himself as “Wedge”, and I was pretty confused that there are 2 different pilots named Wedge. The third and last change I remember was the third Biggs scene right before they go inside the ships. I was very confused when back in 1997 I found online a list of SE changes and this scene was listed there - to me, it was always a part of the movie. I actually had a feeling that it originally was a bit longer.

The tape doesn’t exist anymore, I replaced it with the first official VHS tapes when they were released here and later with the SE tapes, so I have absolutely no proof that these are something else than messed up memories, but if you want a rumour list, here are mine.

The first two are just totally bogus, I’m sorry to say. We’ve seen quite a bit of the shooting of the chasm cross and there is no indication that the scene was too significantly different than how it is today.

And while Jack Klaff as Wedge did have a line cut out that was in the script, at no point did he and Luke have a formal introduction. Even in the radio drama or other such tie-in media where the expansions were based on either drafts of the script or early cuts. Not to mention it would introduce an awkward pause in the rhythm of the briefing scene that, even for how choppy the earlier scripts, seems to be incongruous. I just have no reason to believe it exists.

And the Biggs scene… Aside from the unlikeliness of it all, it’s the only one that I could conceivably believe could have snuck into the film at some point. One thing I did notice about the cut on the BD deleted scenes is that there’s a transition wipe right where the advance forward happens in the Special Edition version. It’s possible that the technician wipe was actually part of an earlier cut and simply resurrected when the scene was reintroduced in the special edition. However, it’s also likely you were influenced by the tie-in media where the scene includes a much longer conversation between Luke, Biggs and Red Leader than even what was originally shot.

I’m just here because I’m driving tonight.

Author
Time

Luke throwing and missing is a detail that was never on film. Never. Any memory of it would be based on mis-remembering and having an image from the novelization (where that did happen). I have always had a very clear image of that myself, but in researching it, I have found that while there was an early release that features some differences, none have any substantial content differences. I can trace the current (as in GOUT) edit back to 1977. It was for the wide release during the summer of 1977 and matches the international release made about the same time (this was the release the mono soundtrack was made for). The original cut is preserved in Puggo Grand and Moth3r’s bootleg (identified by the original crawl and a mono mixdown of the stereo soundtrack). Both show 3 effects shots and the end credit replaced (the star destroyer shotting at the Falcon as it flees Tatooine; Han, Luke, Leia and the droids arriving on Yavin 4 with the matte painting of the temple; the rebel fighters blasting off from Yavin 4; and the end credits are spaced very differently and a glitch at the beginning was removed).

From my research, the Biggs scenes (except maybe the one on Yavin 4) were cut almost as soon as they were shot. They where the first scenes shot in Tunesia and none of the other scenes were ready so we really have them because Lucas was keeping the crew busy. He was persuaded to write those scenes by friends and after shooting them decided not to include them and stick with his original idea of following the droids and meeting Luke when they encountered him. A lot of the shots were originally longer and contained more dialog or there were alternate shots done and then the dialog revised. A lot of little things got cut. We have at least 3 of them. More dialog right before Tarkin enters the briefing room (including the first use of the word Sith), an extra line from Luke at the end of the scene in Ben’s hut, Liea’s extra line after they destroy Alderaan. Who knows how much more there is. From the description of the B&W rough cut, most of these would have been in it. That cut was done with a B&W copy negative not the real negative. The next cut was done by George and Marsha and the final cut comes from what they did. What they rearranged and decided during the editing process is not something that we have access to. Uncovering the hints that remain in the audio vs. video of the final GOUT cut are interesting.

Deleted Magic made it clear that the scene in Ben’s hut was redone because the lightsaber section and the Leia’s message were flopped (watch C-3PO - he is off at the wrong time and on at the wrong time). Luke missing during the trench run could have also been in there (the Deleted Magic team certainly thought so). So what the film looked like before they made the final changes is certainly not what it looks like now. Even the SE retains all those editing choices, even if it replaced some of the shots with new ones or longer ones. The biggest changes to the film outside of those are a slightly different framing choice of the scenes that bracket Jabba’s scene (like all the fades and wipes, they were FX shots and they went back to the original negative to redo them for the 97 SE and they changed the in and out points).

Author
Time
 (Edited)

The one thing about the chasm or Death Star core that I seem to remember is Leia firmly kissing Luke. Which is in the trailer but she does not kiss him it would seem in the theatrical version or the special edition.

But yeah I will admit perhaps I am mis-remembering.

That to me is the Star Wars on TV aside from thst no difference.

Author
Time

Ronster said:

The one thing about the chasm or Death Star core that I seem to remember is Leia firmly kissing Luke. Which is in the trailer but she does not kiss him it would seem in the theatrical version or the special edition.

Wrong again

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Possessed said:

Ronster said:

The one thing about the chasm or Death Star core that I seem to remember is Leia firmly kissing Luke. Which is in the trailer but she does not kiss him it would seem in the theatrical version or the special edition.

Wrong again

Never said I was right but I think part of the problem would be if the TV stations were using the trailer footage to advertise “Star Wars” and you see that more than what was actually in the film which one would you rember. Obviously the one you saw most often.

There is no need to be a dick like i am always wrong. I never said I was convinced of my memory.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Okay…but…It’s just that it would have been be so easy for you to pop in any of the 5 or more versions of the movie and watch the scene and see leah clearly kiss Luke “for luck” before posting that That’s been there every time you’ve ever watched the movie. But I’m sure your memory of how it was when you saw it decades ago is tooootally accurate, so no worries there.

Author
Time

I am probably just too tired and exhausted from working long days and having no time for myself.

I apologise for gibberish and being a bit exhausted then.

Author
Time

Um… Leia kisses Luke at the chasm and says “for luck.” It’s been in every cut. Luke just doesn’t throw twice, though he does pull out the cord twice.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Forget about that I was exhausted and really tired.

Here is Mos Eisley Escape - Video matched to the Audio

snip

I think the technique is quite solid in making sense of stuff and when you see this you will understand much better what I am trying to do.

Author
Time

I see what you are doing, but the audio mix doesn’t completely match that either. Interesting that the clip you have include a shot that bugs the hell out of me - after the Falcon takes off and after Ben straps in, you see Ben leaving the cockpit behind Han.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

I see what you are doing, but the audio mix doesn’t completely match that either. Interesting that the clip you have include a shot that bugs the hell out of me - after the Falcon takes off and after Ben straps in, you see Ben leaving the cockpit behind Han.

Thanks yeah it was getting a bit late but i think the start is all good and the ending part is good as Han shouting chewie get us outta here is out of synch in the original it’s a bit early the button push and the door closing.

some parts might need extra sound or remixing but Chewie and Hans scenes are handled a bit better and it flows a bit better. it’s not something that will ever be perfect but still some room for improvement perhaps.

Chewie clicking the button is correct i think.best bit.

mayhem in the middle is unfixable… Unless there was some sort of cut away to chewie during the battle with flash frames to cover the obvious repeated footage of the stormtrooper falling over. this would sort the footage side of thingd but the shots of chewie are not for the battle part.

Ben kenobi walking off in cockpit background must be from the tractor beam sequence…

My conclusion on this is that this shot from the tractor beam part was used to cover a missing cockpit POV of leaving the atmospere of tattooine. Narratively this put’s us going on that journey with them.or the shot was meant to only replace the part where we see Ben Kenobi cutting to only Han after Ben has left. i.e the shot was extended beyond what was originally earmarked to feature because they did not have the POV shot.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I re-did Blasting out of Mos Eisley.

https://vimeo.com/286254115

I found adding flash frames meant I could actually merge the shot of the Storm trooper that falls over twice. Sound was added where needed. It was slightly re-arranged again.

I added the Special edition Take off but not the lift off as it’s too CGI. I would like to remove the other ships from this shot though because the space port is shut by the storm troopers.

I made a cockpit POV shot and spent quite a long time trying to get that right but the simplest thing to do was just cut obi-wan in the background. That is about it. I feel that it is the best I can do with this but glad it came out as well as it did.

You will notice a small glitch at the start that is the editor Glitching because the sound and the Video are combined and not separate files on separate drives and they have also been giggled about. It probably should not do it but if you wanted to use the clip it would not affect you as there are no changes in this part. It has been color graded in a reasonable way.

Explainatory note:

If you follow the new scene order what becomes clear is as Luke Ob-wan and the droids board the falcon when we cut to Chewbacca looking out the window this would have been Greedo’s entrance to the Hanger which was a re-shoot and moved to the cantina section of the film. The conversation would have played out pretty much the same way as in the cantina no doubt but instead of Han shooting Greedo, Greedo was killed by the Storm troopers. The scenes of Chewie being moved in to the battle we’re to cover the 2 shots of Greedo shooting and dying most probably.

Study on this part complete… Escape Pod Part 1 next.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Ok a small deviation from the plan I happened upon another discovery today, I’m not feeling too well and have a cold and I have been lounging about and a bit zoned out.

Anyway I just have been thinking recently about the explosion when Luke shoots the Tie Fighter down… So I though surely this is meant to look better. So I decided to Mix the Gout in Sharpen it and Color Correct it with this other source I think it’s an old upload of de-specialized put up on vimeo of the battle of Yavin. Anyway after I did this I realized Vader’s body actions were out of synch with his voice, so I decided to fix that as It meant that there was a missing shot of some kind. I filled the space to fit the music cue with a shot that I thought fit the scene well (I have no idea what is meant to go there). And I did some color testing on the small sequence.

I was only doing a quick test but It went a little bit further than testing the explosion from the gout could match which I think it can match 720p just about but it was worth sharing the Vader synch fix here because it does very much relate to the pre-release cut.

It’s small self contained and not too much to get excited about but enjoy the test and the small edit if you like.

https://vimeo.com/287535423