Well, this is the exact opposite problem though, isn't it?
Exactly. There are no big problems with the luma in the GOUT, it's the chroma.
You_Too said:
Exactly. There are no big problems with the luma in the GOUT, it's the chroma.
Well, the luma was destroyed as well and the DVNR-1000 is to blame. :-(
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
To mis-quote a certain dark helmet ...
"Don't be too proud of this HSL representation you're using. The ability to over-saturate a picture is insignificant next to the power of RGB."
;)
Spaced Ranger said:
To mis-quote a certain dark helmet ...
;)
O.k. I really need a "for dummies" version of what this means :)
AntcuFaalb said:
You_Too said:
Exactly. There are no big problems with the luma in the GOUT, it's the chroma.
Well, the luma was destroyed as well and the DVNR-1000 is to blame. :-(
Yeah, you're right. But at least there's no crushed shadow detail!
And Spaced Ranger: Great post! :)
Thanks!
And here's the point I was making:
Today's color film is R-G-B and it has a sort of built-in compression with resulting "compression artifacts" -- that is, omitting colors from the greater range our eyes can see:
After that, anything that's been captured into the digital media is also compressed with it's own compression artifacts -- sub-sampling (4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:1:1, etc.) and redundancy elimination (mpeg, et al). Media distribution compresses that even more due to space, cost, and technology constraints. So the media mush we end up playing with is pretty pitiful (fortunately, things are getting better and cheaper). The closer we stay to the original film, the better off we are.
In dealing with fixing up the inherent faults, color-space conventions that are useful within limits. The previously mentioned HSL is common and is intuitive. But it is only a representation that works best in small adjustments. When pushed beyond that usage, it produces effects that are actually misrepresentations.
Using HSL to analyze a picture, when saturation is max'ed, ...
reveals "damage". (Interesting that this looks allot like over-compression flattening.) But, those RGB numbers compared to the non-saturated picture ...
shows that increasing the saturation changed the proportions between the components of RGB to create a false impression of the type of picture damage (missing chroma rather than flattened color).
snicker demonstrated that "impossible" fixes could be made in RGB because "damage" in one or more of the parallel RGB channels could be patched with better condition parts from the others channels. (He was working on "crushed" or "blown-out" channels to recover detail, but any problem in between is likewise addressable.)
Anyway, from the RGB perspective, a fix might not be worth the effort. My quick tweak of the original picture's RGB gammas produced a nice color correction/adjustment without a hint of the "max'ed saturation damage":
I thought it might help with fixing the "hopelessly damaged" where it mattered.
I completely understand your point. And "fixing" is exactly what I've been doing ever since I started the old thread about color correcting the GOUT. We did reach a very nice result in the end. And we're way past the repair/color correction state.
And my intent of posting that picture was just to show how bad the raw GOUT really is.
You_Too, do you know if ya'll are planning on doing case art for '97 as well? Or more like a bonus disc for SW77?
There will be case art for the 97 SE's too. I've actually started working on the one for the first film. It's gonna be pretty simple though, with the poster as front but nicely cleaned up.
Very nice! Thanks!
@ frank678
Was that any better? :D
You_Too said:
... we're way past the repair/color correction state.
Great! (I thought your example picture was it's present state.)
Have you described your processes for the fix-ups?
I scanned through the thread (unsuccessfully looking for that GOUT snapshot unsaturated) and didn't see fix-up procedure descriptions.
(Techniques are of particular interest to me -- like snicker's approach, to which I was beginning to explore before coming across it).
If not, please do! I also like lots of comparative pictures and clips ... as you may guess by now. :)
Spaced Ranger said:
Have you described your processes for the fix-ups?
I don't speak for You_Too, but he's a good friend of mine.
Among other things, his primary fix-up method is a set of custom curves files expertly crafted by him in GIMP, which are then applied using the Avisynth plugin GiCoCU.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
Spaced Ranger said:
@ frank678
Was that any better? :D
Yes easier to get my head round thank you for explaining
Thanks AntcuFaalb. :)
And yeah, it started with one curve and ended up being 5 curve files, 2 histogram conversions and lots of other settings like "selective color". I revisited the settings about 30 times or more during that time.
We won't go into complete detail about it, especially since we're way past that point, everything is final and almost ready for release.
But I should've said that the saturated pic I posted was from the raw GOUT, nothing else. It was just to show how bad the colors are and why it's hard to get something out of it.
Here's that same scene before and after:
That really is hard to believe! Can't wait to see the finished product!
The bottom of those two images is big improvement, but is has too much green to my eye. It is immediately evident in the skin-tones and in the hair, but most tellingly in Vader.
Taking a look at the values in the image, Vader's grey/black areas sample as green shifted (e.g. 22:34:24). It also shows in their red-badges/medals, these should be pretty close to red, but they are also green tinted (eg. 76:27:12) and in the blacks of the orb in the middle of the table (6:9:3)
The 'grey' walls are correctly trending towards green as has been mentioned before, but Vader should be fairly colour neutral, this image has an overall colour-cast that is shifted a little too far towards green.
Be careful using scans as colour references, where possible, stick the film or cel on a calibrated light box and view it by eye. Different scanners introduce colour shifts, many towards green.
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You_Too said:
... it started with one curve and ended up being 5 curve files, 2 histogram conversions and lots of other settings like "selective color". I revisited the settings about 30 times or more during that time.
Im-m-mpresive!
And I read mention of this one group of settings will process the complete movie (without further intervention), too? I do hope more operation details will be forthcoming as time permits. Don't forget lots of pictures. :)
The green actually reminds me of some of the footage that was shown in a few Star Wars documentaries which came from an unmodified print. There was a thread where I posted some good screenshots demonstrating this, but I can't find it now! Grr.
The best example I saw was when Vader walked down a corridor to meet Obi-wan, and all the panels on the wall had a slight green shift to them.
@poita: Actually that's pretty much how the scene should look. Like I said before I've been through these settings about 30 times or maybe even more, back when I did the color correction and in the end I've gotten very sure I got the best result I possibly could.
Even though it looks green at first glance, it's actually how it should look when all colors are brought back the way we did. Considering the downsides of the GOUT of course.
Just check the scan of that scene on jedi1: http://www.jedi1.net/images/1600/ANH-Galactic_Empire-02144-1600.jpg
Even Vader has a green tone there.
I appreciate that everybody is trying to help but it's way too late for that, and I'm very confident that the color correction got the best possible result so I'm not even considering going back to that point again. I hope everybody understands this.
Don't you just hate when people do that? I know I do :-D
Harmy said:
Don't you just hate when people do that? I know I do :-D
Haha! Nah, in a way I appreciate that people care so much. But sometimes I wish I could just transfer my memory of all those countless hours spent on color correction over to them so they would just see what I've seen. :)
Harmy said:
Don't you just hate when people do that? I know I do :-D
We're all working toward a similar goal and poita has a lot to offer, as he has access to many accurate color sources. Constructive criticism is important.
With that being said, I agree with You_Too that his color choices should stay as they currently are. He's not color-correcting scene-by-scene and I think his approach yields the best possible one-setting-for-all result for all three films.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
One setting to fix them all;
One setting to find them;
One setting to bring them all;
And from the Dark Side, bind them.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
^ Awesome :)
