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Star Wars Episode IX (was) to be directed by Colin Trevorrow - DUEL OF THE FATES RIP — Page 11

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Broom Kid said:

I also think Finn/Rey made more sense than Rey/Kylo (I don’t see a lot of romance on Rey’s part towards Kylo. I see some going the other direction, but she never really seems too into the idea on her part in either TFA or TLJ) but again, I think the best possible romantic pairing in the sequel trilogy was Finn/Poe. The only thing really going for Rey/Finn however is the stray hints at it in TFA that didn’t really get picked up on in TLJ - although the hug when Finn and Rey reunite definitely has more going for it on an emotional level than Rose kissing Finn. But then again - Poe introducing himself to Rey basically signals that Finn/Rey is out of the question going forward if they stick with Trevorrow, and it’s only possible in TROS if JJ remembers what he was kind of trying to do in TFA with those two… and he apparently didn’t.

The biggest problem with any Rey pairing is that there’s not really enough work put into any of the movies to suggest she even needs the romantic aspect to be addressed, much less addressed the way it was in TROS. And even in that movie - it only happens very, very late in the movie (she spends most of TROS exceedingly angry with Kylo, tries to kill him twice before ACTUALLY KILLING HIM but healing him before he can die), and that romance is taken off the board by his death almost immediately afterwards anyway.

Finn/Rey, like most things in TFA, was set up so that it could go either way. The introduction of Rose in TLJ seemed to imply that the direction for the pair would be “just friends,” but I think it still was way open enough that you could do a romance in IX and it’d feel natural (even though the pair are separated in TLJ, they’re constantly talking about the other, with their reunion being a big beat).

I agree Rey didn’t need a romance. But credit where it’s due, Trevorrow at least gives a reason for it (tying back into the “Jedi code” and rejecting it as part of her path forward).

When it comes to Kylo, personally I think they were intentionally playing for romance in TLJ. There was no pressing need to go through with it in IX, but I did find it a very interesting added ripple to their relationship that complicated the typical arch nemesis set up going into the finale. To that extent I’m glad they made it explicit, although Abrams clearly wanted to leave the kiss as a twist at the end, so all we’re left with in the lead up is subtext, which isn’t quite as interesting as what could have been done with it. But I think Rey stabbing him is a great beat. She lets her anger get the better of her and immediately regrets it. She wants to be with Ben, but not on the dark side. The issue with the scene is really there’s no great explanation for why Rey is fighting him in the first place.

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Broom Kid said:

You know what I really like about that post? The idea that Kylo renounces the dark side early. WAY early. In fact, I think all my tentative feelings with his redemption get drastically minimized if it’s not presented as a big movie (and saga) ending reward, but if it’s an end-of-first-act thing in response to something really horrible and awful that Hux & the Knights of Ren do. At which point the big fight between Kylo and Rey is almost 100% one-sided where he’s just trying not to die while explaining that he wants to atone. And then… we start the 2nd act.

The character dynamics of THAT movie are drastically different (and kind of exciting) more-so than the sort of “we know he’s going to turn good by the end here” vibe that TROS and DOTF both had. The idea that the rest of the trio HAVE to interact with him now would be really, really interesting to see play out.

I agree. Obviously Kylo turning is no great twist, so it would have helped to get it over and done with. Especially because, if you don’t, you’re sort of left with the question of what does he do before the turn?

In my mind, at the end of TLJ, we already know that becoming Supreme Leader won’t leave him fulfilled. So either you have him regress a bit, lashing out and reaching dark side rock bottom (with some sort of epiphany moment), or you have him wanting out from the very start - which is more what I would have done, him trying to take the First Order in a new, less evil sort of direction and getting push back. TROS chose neither. Instead, we got wheel spinning. Kylo just asking Rey to join him on the dark side for an hour like he already did in the last movie, while removing anything featuring him doing something overtly dark side (like killing Hux for being the spy).

There is that epiphany moment, but it’s cushioned by how abrupt it is, and with little context, like how if we had known for sure that Kylo was in love with Rey, as they had originally planned to set up in the Oracle scene, it would have been a much more powerful “what am I doing?” moment when he’s about to kill her.

I don’t even think you’d have needed to drastically divorced yourself from the preexisting structure of TROS. Combine Pasaana and Kijimi, so they get to the Death Star a lot sooner. Than, before the heroes zip off planet, they ‘arrest’ Kylo Ren. But instead of just being able to toss him in jail or whatever, they are forced to work with him because he knows the way to Exegol. Something like that.

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The more I think about it (and your explanation really helps) the more I sort of wish that had been an option ANYONE had pitched or considered. The idea of the subversion in TROS being “how about we just turn Kylo IMMEDIATELY. Let’s just do it”

But to get back to the big Reylo discush - I just don’t feel like she wants to be with him AT ALL. She kind of wanted to in TLJ maybe, but mostly because they can use him, not because she LIKES him. I get the sense HE wants to legit seduce her (he moves on her at her weakest/most vulnerable, definitely, in that hut), and I believe he’s into that idea, but I don’t really get the sense it’s a thing she’s into. She’s maybe willing to USE that to bring him to her side, but like Luke says “This isn’t going to go the way you think,” and it doesn’t.

She says “I would have taken BEN’S hand” but that’s the biggest problem with the “romance” in TROS - before the kiss, that’s really the only sign she even likes him, much less wants to be with him. She says it out loud but she doesn’t show it, and she only says it after having actually killed him and then healed him - and the way she heals him is kind of a dig, too, haha.

I love that bit too, and I think it’s really cool - but I don’t feel that there’s a lot of evidence that SHE wants Kylo. I can see Kylo being like “hell yes,” but I don’t think it’s coming back the other way.

But then again - if they flip him at the end of the 1st act, her falling for him FOR REAL suddenly becomes a lot more possible, too.

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Broom Kid said:

The character dynamics of THAT movie are drastically different (and kind of exciting) more-so than the sort of “we know he’s going to turn good by the end here” vibe that TROS and DOTF both had. The idea that the rest of the trio HAVE to interact with him now would be really, really interesting to see play out.

This is a big reason why I like this idea! A movie where Kylo/Ben is having to interact with Rey, Poe, Finn, etc. is entirely different from their interactions in the last two films. In TROS, the interactions between Rey and Kylo don’t feel any different from the last two films. It definitely would have provided plenty of material for interesting scenes that could deal with forgiveness and atonement in a way that Vader’s redemption never did, setting TROS more apart form ROTJ.

Like you said, I feel like most people went into this film expecting Kylo to be redeemed, so why not do it early on, play around with character interactions we would never get otherwise, and then maybe Rey actually turning to the dark side and then Ben saving her at the end be the big “hurray” moment. After their fight, Ben could have been the one to get the pep talk from Luke, and they could’ve made amends. I’m not trying to take away from Rey’s story, but I think Rey and Ben could’ve been dual-protagonists whose stories reflected each other, then finally coalesce in the final act. Rey’s story could’ve been similar to Anakin’s, who slowly is seduced with the promise of saving the one’s he cares about from dying. The weight of being the galaxy’s savior, of being the last Jedi, could be weighing heavily on her throughout the film, which leads her down the dark path starting around the midpoint or end of act 2, reflecting Ben’s turn at the end of Act 1.

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Broom Kid said:

But then again - if they flip him at the end of the 1st act, her falling for him FOR REAL suddenly becomes a lot more possible, too.

I totally get all of your points, Broom Kid. I think they’re really fair. This is why I think, like you said, that seeing Rey and the real Ben interact in a non-confrontational way would’ve allowed for that romance to take hold for audiences who weren’t really sold on it (or even saw it) in the last two films.

I imagine them starting to work together before they get to the Death Star (or the Death Star equivalent), and their fight could’ve related to some tension that still remained between them. It would’ve been very similar to how couples in romances tend to have a falling out halfway through the movie, only to get together by the end of the film.

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And on top of that, considering how Driver chose to play Ben for the short period he had - Ben would have been pretty fun to bounce off Poe and Finn, too. Finn especially, I think.

Plus you then get around the need to change Poe into “Han Zero Sugar” as a character, because the snippy smart-ass dangerous hero role is now being filled by repentant Ben, and you don’t have to hard-yank the steering wheel on Poe over towards that end of the character spectrum.

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Huh, that is another good point I hadn’t really considered. Then Poe could better fit into the role of Leader as he was meant to be, more wise and mature. I think Leia could have died earlier in the film, possibly whenever Kylo is almost killed/left for dead by Hux and the Knights of Ren.

Either way, Leia’s death should’ve propelled Poe into a stronger leadership role than what we really saw. I’ve said this before, but I think you could’ve kept the whole plot about sending a message throughout the galaxy as Colin had it set up, but imagine if the message was supposed to be from Leia, but after she dies, Poe thinks all is lost and doubts his own abilities, but in the end he ends up being the one to send that message. I think seeing Poe starting out as that hotshot pilot from the beginning of TFA, to a leader calling on the galaxy to take a stand against the First Order, would’ve been a great arc for him.

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I understand why some people wanted Kylo to be redeemed in the first act, but in my opinion it wouldn’t really work. Redemption in Star Wars has always been more of a spiritual affair. Watching Kylo act all chummy with the new trio would be really jarring for me, considering all the horrible things Kylo did. In my opinion the only endings that would work for Kylo are either becoming an exiled renegade fighting for justice, or dying in a heroic sacrifice. Trevorrow choosing to go with the latter is completely fine in my book.

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Broom Kid said:

The more I think about it (and your explanation really helps) the more I sort of wish that had been an option ANYONE had pitched or considered. The idea of the subversion in TROS being “how about we just turn Kylo IMMEDIATELY. Let’s just do it”

But to get back to the big Reylo discush - I just don’t feel like she wants to be with him AT ALL. She kind of wanted to in TLJ maybe, but mostly because they can use him, not because she LIKES him. I get the sense HE wants to legit seduce her (he moves on her at her weakest/most vulnerable, definitely, in that hut), and I believe he’s into that idea, but I don’t really get the sense it’s a thing she’s into. She’s maybe willing to USE that to bring him to her side, but like Luke says “This isn’t going to go the way you think,” and it doesn’t.

She says “I would have taken BEN’S hand” but that’s the biggest problem with the “romance” in TROS - before the kiss, that’s really the only sign she even likes him, much less wants to be with him. She says it out loud but she doesn’t show it, and she only says it after having actually killed him and then healed him - and the way she heals him is kind of a dig, too, haha.

Well, I think they played it as subtext in TLJ in a way that could be validly interpreted in a few different ways. You could make the argument that it was one-sided from Kylo’s side, but I think you also could make a pretty decent argument it was one-sided from Rey’s (or of course an argument that they were both into it). Regardless I think it was an interesting idea - whichever interpretation you go with - to play with in IX. I wish they had made their feelings clearer in the film. I think the idea we’re supposed to gather is that Kylo is in love with her and this is part of why he wants to turn her rather than kill her, and while Rey caught some feelings in TLJ she got over it when he refused to stop firing on the fleet (or is trying to get over it).

RogueLeader said:

Huh, that is another good point I hadn’t really considered. Then Poe could better fit into the role of Leader as he was meant to be, more wise and mature. I think Leia could have died earlier in the film, possibly whenever Kylo is almost killed/left for dead by Hux and the Knights of Ren.

One of the biggest “this would have been so easy to do” missed opportunities in the film is not putting Poe in an X-wing. Especially considering he does nothing of note in the final battle, wouldn’t it have been a great resolution for his arc to see him calling the shots from a general’s chair of a capitol ship in the final battle instead?

StarkillerAG said:

I understand why some people wanted Kylo to be redeemed in the first act, but in my opinion it wouldn’t really work. Redemption in Star Wars has always been more of a spiritual affair. Watching Kylo act all chummy with the new trio would be really jarring for me, considering all the horrible things Kylo did. In my opinion the only endings that would work for Kylo are either becoming an exiled renegade fighting for justice, or dying in a heroic sacrifice. Trevorrow choosing to go with the latter is completely fine in my book.

I don’t think the idea is that he’d be chummy with them, at least not at the start. There’d be a lot of friction, which would be both fun and a cause of some good drama.

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some of you all really missed out on your emo high school romances and it shows

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StarkillerAG said:

I understand why some people wanted Kylo to be redeemed in the first act, but in my opinion it wouldn’t really work. Redemption in Star Wars has always been more of a spiritual affair. Watching Kylo act all chummy with the new trio would be really jarring for me, considering all the horrible things Kylo did. In my opinion the only endings that would work for Kylo are either becoming an exiled renegade fighting for justice, or dying in a heroic sacrifice. Trevorrow choosing to go with the latter is completely fine in my book.

I get that, and I think Colin’s direction is valid, but I don’t think it is necessarily the only way it could’ve worked. In this scenario I don’t really picture them being chummy at all at the beginning. Finn and Poe would obviously hate him, and Ben/Kylo wouldn’t like them in return. But it would be interesting to watch them find common ground and work together, and then in the end make amends.
And think about it, some of the best character interactions are when are main characters are fighting with each other, think of Han, Luke and Leia escaping the Death Star. I could definitely see those kind of interactions between them and that type of film. It could’ve been really fun and different from what we’ve gotten before!

I just think the tension between the gang that Ben’s inclusion would’ve created could’ve put the audience on the edge of their seats, not knowing what to expect. It would’ve been new territory.

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NFBisms said:

some of you all really missed out on your emo high school romances and it shows

pretty much every romance is emo!

The ones that aren’t are just like… that’s just a roommate, isn’t it?

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Broom Kid said:

But the process is the same whether you take years or months.

This isn’t true at all. The process isn’t the same from movie to movie often, much less across multiple decades in an industry that has changed a lot.

The process now is not the same as it was in the '70s. If Star Wars was made then the way ALL blockbusters are made now, we wouldn’t have gotten to draft 4, because when Ladd greenlit it, he’d have greenlit it with a release date locked and everything would have been set to that clock. Star Wars didn’t have a clock put on it until much, much later in the development process. The clock still almost drove Lucas insane, but he got a lot of time to develop that script that is damn near impossible to get now.

It’s a different machine creators are working in. Or rather, the engine and the gears move differently than they did when Lucas was around. Lucas is partially the reason that machine now operates the way it does, thanks to his efforts in the early 00s. Comparing the script development of Star Wars in 74 to Trevorrow’s efforts in 2017 is a comparison that isn’t worth much because not only are the creatives in question pretty wildly different, but the process is also pretty wildly different now, too.

I hate to keep harping on this point, but I have studied a bit of Hollywood history and nearly every movie goes through rewrites. The bigger they are the more often it happens. Gone With the Wind had many rewrites. The Lord of the Rings trilogy had many rewrites. 80 years pass and not much has changed. About the only thing that has is there are more edits during production now with reshoots going from a rare thing to commonplace, even normal. So that is just one more time that a movie can get edits. And I’m sure they edit the script to plan out their changes. It is the guide for how the movie is filmed and put together in the edit. So whether Lucas had 3 years from first draft to final edit and on TFA Abrams had 2 years and started with Lucas’s, the end result is the same. That applies to IX as well. It is clear from this early draft that Abrams did not just throw it out, but edited it to get to the story we have. The story beats are all pretty much the same, like Lucas’s early drafts and the final movie. Some things changed a lot and some carried through. If you study enough script development you’d know this is absolutely normal when creating a script. And even adaptions go through this to find the right way to turn novel to screen. LOTR went through a few shorter drafts before being expanded back out. If you think anything any Star Wars movie has done script wise is unusual, you haven’t studied enough of the process. Each one is absolutely normal, whether you look at the 1930’s, 1970’s, or today. It is just part of the creative process of writing and making a movie.

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yotsuya said:

I hate to keep harping on this point, but I have studied a bit of Hollywood history and nearly every movie goes through rewrites.

But I never said “movies don’t go through rewrites.” I said “comparing the process on The Rise of Skywalker to the process on the original Star Wars is a bad comparison.” And then I tried to support that claim by pointing out just how differently not only the process was, but the end results of those processes were. That claim doesn’t rely on the idea that movies don’t get rewritten, or that things don’t change between drafts. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying HOW it happened with THOSE TWO MOVIES is a bad comparison to make.

If you think anything any Star Wars movie has done script wise is unusual, you haven’t studied enough of the process.

This is also not true, sorry.

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Broom Kid said:

yotsuya said:

I hate to keep harping on this point, but I have studied a bit of Hollywood history and nearly every movie goes through rewrites.

But I never said “movies don’t go through rewrites.” I said “comparing the process on The Rise of Skywalker to the process on the original Star Wars is a bad comparison.” And then I tried to support that claim by pointing out just how differently not only the process was, but the end results of those processes were. That claim doesn’t rely on the idea that movies don’t get rewritten, or that things don’t change between drafts. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying HOW it happened with THOSE TWO MOVIES is a bad comparison to make.

If you think anything any Star Wars movie has done script wise is unusual, you haven’t studied enough of the process.

This is also not true, sorry.

While you can say no two movies are exactly alike, you can also say that every movie goes through pretty much the same process. The variations are slight and it doesn’t matter if it takes months or years to go through the process. Some movies go through many different scripts by different writers and some movies go through many different scripts by one writer. And you can’t say which has had more changes because time and number of writers are not much of a factor.

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yotsuya said:

Broom Kid said:

yotsuya said:

I hate to keep harping on this point, but I have studied a bit of Hollywood history and nearly every movie goes through rewrites.

But I never said “movies don’t go through rewrites.” I said “comparing the process on The Rise of Skywalker to the process on the original Star Wars is a bad comparison.” And then I tried to support that claim by pointing out just how differently not only the process was, but the end results of those processes were. That claim doesn’t rely on the idea that movies don’t get rewritten, or that things don’t change between drafts. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying HOW it happened with THOSE TWO MOVIES is a bad comparison to make.

If you think anything any Star Wars movie has done script wise is unusual, you haven’t studied enough of the process.

This is also not true, sorry.

While you can say no two movies are exactly alike, you can also say that every movie goes through pretty much the same process. The variations are slight and it doesn’t matter if it takes months or years to go through the process. Some movies go through many different scripts by different writers and some movies go through many different scripts by one writer. And you can’t say which has had more changes because time and number of writers are not much of a factor.

Yeah, it’s complicated. But I am convinced that Trevorrow’s script would have been great if he had time to rewrite it. I was already starting to see the seeds of a great movie in that 2nd draft summary, and a little more refinement would have made it amazing. Too bad Trevorrow was fired.

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I just read the leaked script the other night and thought it was awesome ! I would really have loved to have seen a mix of this and what we were actually given . I would love for the DOTF script to be made in to a full cast audio drama like the NPR radio dramas.

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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Or a movie!

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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Definitely hoping for the later version to leak so I can compare them. I have to say, my only real misgiving about DOTF is the romance subplot, and even that’s better than the one we got in TROS. It’s far from perfect, but it doesn’t seem to suffer from the inherent problems that make TROS, in my opinion, practically impossible to salvage with editing in the way people have done with the prequels: the return of Palpatine, the lack of any real character arc for Finn, the lack of anything at all for Rose, the lack of a real plot, the over-reliance on nostalgia and fake-outs.

With that in mind, I think I’m declaring DOTF in some form (precisely which TBD) canon, as far as I’m concerned, and rejecting TROS. I’m even mocking up a little Blu-Ray-case-sized book, with the script and concept art, to sit alongside my official releases and fan-edits. I also made this, just as a bit of wistful wishful thinking.

What might have been....

The Hobbit: Roadshow Edition

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Is that like a 3D render or are there actually places that will make you a custom steelbook?

Yub Nub for life

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idir_hh said:

DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

idir_hh said:

Art is subjective. You might think some of this is stupid, I happen to think it’s a masterpiece.

The grass is always greener, but “masterpiece” seems a tad strong for a partial screenplay of a film that was never made.

Yeah I don’t get how you can call 5 pages of a first draft script of an unproduced script a “masterpiece.” That’s more than a little silly.

Robert meyer Burnett read out most of the script on his YouTube channel and based on that script I think we would have gotten a film worthy of the Star Wars name.
The world building, the drama, the lore, the classic comedy and the politics, it’s all in there for me.

Personally I’m waiting to get my hands on the script myself.

Maybe there’s a chance it gets adapted into a novel.

Well FWIW, I could see this working within canon as something that happens directly before TRoS, with a few tweaks.