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Star Wars Episode III: Labyrinth Of Evil (Released) — Page 46

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Did you consider/have you considered using sade1212’s visual effects of Palpatine’s face-change during Windu/Sidious? Watched octoroxx’s edit today and it was very seamless and effective IMO. EDIT: Never mind saw your response on this! (For those looking, it’s on page 44.)

Also, on a separate question, I appreciated octoroxx’s adding of little bits of dialogue largely in the 1st act (see below) to make Obi-Wan and Anakin more on equal terms / brotherly to more firmly establish that relationship and improve the ‘you were my brother Anakin!’ angle of the fall. Would you consider adding that to a hypothetical v8?

“-Removed or replaced all instances of Anakin referring to his training and/or calling Obi-Wan his master in order to better establish his independence and their relationship as peers at this point in the timeline.
-Anakin shoots down Palpatine’s advice to leave Obi-Wan behind the first time, rather than having to be pushed twice.
-Replaced the line “Are you coming master?” with the more jocular “We doing this or what?”
-Trimmed Anakin and Obi-Wan’s dialogue to remove reference to Obi-Wan’s training. Anakin is his own Jedi at this point.
-Anakin greets Obi-Wan with a casual “hey” after showing up late to the briefing
-Removed references to Anakin’s training and his time as a little boy. Again, he addresses Obi-Wan by name rather than title. The emphasis should be on Anakin and Obi-Wan as friends and “brothers”, not master and apprentice.”

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2NmJYOkNHSzvguMgKMvTYaCcPSQqwOKI6nQNjMoxQM/edit?usp=sharing

Apologies if you have considered this and addressed it elsewhere - I did do a search but couldn’t find anything directly addressing this. EDIT: Never mind again - trawled back to page 28 and saw your response on this!

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On this:
"Replaced scene with Windu hearing that Obi-Wan has engaged Grievous with deleted scene “A Plot to Destroy the Jedi” earlier in the film. (V6 repositions this scene immediately prior to Anakin missing the briefing, up from right before Anakin’s appointment to the Council as in prior versions of this fan edit.)”

I was just wondering what your justification was? With the more political angel of LOE (which I love btw), it makes a lot of sense to have the Jedi express doubt about the Chancellor nice and early, but for Yoda to say “Moving to take control of the Jedi Council the Chancellor is” without anything having happened yet in that regard, feels very strange. To me it feels quite confusing - bit of a ‘huh?’ moment. Like yeah we’ve seen Palpatine get Anakin to kill Dooku, but beyond that, for the audience, he hasn’t done any political scheming yet, let alone to do with the Jedi Council. I haven’t watched the theatrical RotS for a few years so hopefully I’m not too tainted with expectations, but I felt like I had missed some crucial information there.

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That moment is when the audience learns that the Chancellor is moving to take control of the Jedi council.

I ship Spideychelle (MCU Peter and MJ) and Tomdaya (Tom Holland and Zendaya)
My Star Wars Fan-Edits

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G&G-Fan said:

That moment is when the audience learns that the Chancellor is moving to take control of the Jedi council.

Ahh see I think that’s where I disagree, because it’s where the audience learns that the Jedi believe that the Chancellor is moving to take control of the Jedi council.

The natural question of the viewer is ‘why?’ and LOE doesn’t give an answer for that until afterwards, which I think doesn’t make for very clear storytelling. The only answer the viewer can give at that moment is that we know that the chancellor is Sidious and is evil, or if the viewer doesn’t know that, it seems like Yoda is beyond paranoid for no reason at all. I love LOE and its intentions - particularly in the way it portrays the Jedi as completely playing into Sidious’ hands and being politically over-assertive in such a way that the audience should end up with a critique of them - however, here Yoda seems completely irrational and I think more importantly it is a moment where you as the viewer may well feel like they’ve missed crucial information that explains the Yoda’s quite specific worries about the Chancellor. (Tbf if Yoda/the council were expressing more general worries in this scene, it would do a good job of introducing the viewer to the idea that Palpatine is looking to tighten his grip on power, but they are specific enough that I felt it was a bit of a ‘Huh?’ moment).

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I feel it’s better where it is, given the pieces I have to work with, including establishing shots and music. I do see your point but it screws over the pacing to toss in between Palpatine appointing Anakin and the Jedi Council.

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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In light of the unfolding ‘Kenobi’ series, I feel it’s worth having a conversation about younglings in these Hal9000 fan edits of the prequel films. (Incredibly minor spoiler for Kenobi: it involves referencing youngling Jedi.)

My saga fan edits operate on two levels, as I see it. The first is in relation to the known-quantity ‘saga’ films in isolation. The second is to hopefully play nicely overall with other, non-saga material. Sometimes things removed from my edits will be referenced in a book or a comic, and most often this introduces only mild contradictions as most of the removed content can still be thought of as occurring when other material establishes it to the hypothetical reader who only has my fan edits for those films. This is all well and good for books, comics, and animation, though it hits a bit differently when it comes to new live-action content closely tied into the saga.

My prequel edits do not explicitly remove the possibility of children Jedi trainees being present at the Coruscant temple, though they do away with much of what builds it up. In Ep1, we hear Qui-Gon say Anakin would have been identified “early” had he been born in the Republic, though we do not hear anything about Anakin being explicitly “too old” to begin training. In Ep2, we do not see Yoda and the younglings. In Ep3, Anakin is not explicitly shown to kill children, and this does not factor into Obi-Wan or Padme’s reactions.

Attack of the Phantom, the 2002 edit from The Phantom Editor, also removed Yoda and the younglings, as he felt the scene hurt Obi-Wan’s character. I agree with this decision. My edit of Ep3 depicts Anakin’s turn to the dark side as a bit more gradual, betraying the Jedi ostensibly as a shift in political allegiance. This is different from the original, in which the focal point for Obi-Wan and Padme is that Anakin slaughtered children, seemingly as his initial actions after switching sides. These are the substantial gains that come with omitting younglings being shown or discussed onscreen in the prequels.

In the new Kenobi show, (very minor spoilers) we are reminded in no uncertain terms that Anakin slaughtered younglings during his march of the Temple. Nothing in my edits of the prequels make this impossible, and it could be taken by a viewer as a new revelation perhaps. Nothing save for a sequel-sequel trilogy can impact the first level of operating within a coherent episodic saga, though this does put some strain on cooperating with new live-action material. It contradicts only the implication that editing gives us for Anakin in Ep3.

I havne’t made plans to modify this substantially, although I would imagine making two small changes to Ep1 and Ep2 in the event I find myself reissuing it anyway. Those being to reinstate the explicit idea Anakin is “too old,” and Anakin explicitly mentioning that attachment is forbidden for Jedi.

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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I’ve been thinking about this for my edit too. The best compromise I can think of is to reinstate the shot of Anakin igniting his saber on the younglings, as well as the other references, but remove the “Master Skywalker, what are we going to do?” line. It just feels like a little too much.

As for the youngling scene in Episode 2, I still don’t really think you need it.

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This sounds so great. lease can I have a link so I can watch it? Thanks.

Chris

Give me Star wars or give me death.

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Are you planning to revisit the “Lord Vader arise” scene in III, based on his assembly in the ObiWan series, or are you taking the view that he gets put together and taken apart several times?

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Hal 9000 said:

I haven’t made plans to modify this substantially, although I would imagine making two small changes to Ep1 and Ep2 in the event I find myself reissuing it anyway. Those being to reinstate the explicit idea Anakin is “too old,” and Anakin explicitly mentioning that attachment is forbidden for Jedi.

I do not think any changes need to be made to Ep1 and Ep2.

Ep1:
I think it works better for your vision as a whole to NOT want the Jedi to train Anakin because they think he is either too dangerous or they are unsure what his future would hold, not that he is older.

Ep2:
By having Anakin explicitly mention that attachment is forbidden for Jedi, I feel adding this back in could go either way. I tend to think of the Jedi and Anakin as being similar to the Catholics vs. Protestants. Catholic priests are more strict and have more rules that are meant to bring them closer to their religion, like practicing celibacy, while Protestants believe that “we are encouraged to love”. Blah, blah, blah… I think this helps to show that Anakin doesn’t fully agree with the Jedi’s current views and it helps to cement his turn against them in your edit of Ep3. By leaving “attachment is forbidden” more vague, it allows Anakin not to feel he is “breaking” the rules by being in a relationship, but leaves him feeling wrong enough about it to hide it from the other Jedi… another internal conflict that helps lead to his turn.

The Skywalker Saga:
I / II / III / IV / V / VI / VII / VIII / IX
This is the way.

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They say “he is too old” because he’s already spent too much time in the dangerous outside world that he instinctually suppresses his emotions. Because what many people misunderstand about the scene is that they didn’t say no to Anakin joining the order because he was afraid (even Jedi Masters can be afraid; Yoda even says later in the movie that he’s afraid for Anakin’s training), they said no because he refused to admit that he’s afraid. When the Jedi were basically telling him, “Dude, we can read you’re mind, we know you’re afraid”, he continues to say he’s not. Part of the Jedi way is confronting fear and overcoming it (this is stated by Lucas), but you can’t overcome something you refuse to acknowledge exists. And it’s because of this that his fear continued to eat him up.

George Lucas has explicitly said the reason Jedi are trained from birth is so they never gain a habit in holding onto emotions or suppressing them. They’re trained from birth to let go. That’s why they say he’s too old.

Anakin wasn’t stretching the truth or lying when he said they’re encouraged to love. George Lucas has not only said that Jedi are allowed to love and should love everybody but he’s also said Jedi Knights aren’t celibate. What is forbidden for a Jedi is attachment, AKA possessive relationships. Lucas basically uses the Buddhist definition of attachment. What is forbidden is what Anakin did: putting your relationship over the greater good. Being so attached that you let it get in the way of the mission (when he almost ditches the mission to save Padme at the end of AOTC) and being willing to basically sell your soul to the devil and slaughter all the Jedi including the children because you refuse to let go of your wife. Anakin either knows but refuses to admit that he’s gotten too attached to Padme beyond a healthy degree or his emotions are so clouded he just doesn’t know the difference between love and attachment (as defined by Lucas).

This is explored in the Clone Wars: Obi-Wan loved Satine, and he wasn’t forced to suppress those feelings. But he never let it cloud his judgement or get in the way of the greater mission, and when it did (when he rushed to Mandalore to rescue her), it had dire consequences, and she died. “It’s not that we’re not allowed to have these feelings, it’s natural.” And if he wanted to pursue that relationship, he would’ve needed to leave the Jedi Order (because again, when you’re in a position in which trillions of lives depend on you, you can’t be imbalanced).

Now I will admit this stuff is muddled in the films due to Lucas’ flat style of writing dialogue (he doesn’t really take the time to properly explain these intricate details), but those are the intentions of the author, as shown by the many times he’s been quoted to say this kind of stuff.

I ship Spideychelle (MCU Peter and MJ) and Tomdaya (Tom Holland and Zendaya)
My Star Wars Fan-Edits

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Personally, I’d get rid of the youngling slaughter implication in Kenobi. Maybe Reva could be restructured as a young force-sensitive who was found by and recruited into the Inquisitors?

Turning Anakin into “School Shooter in Space” just pushes him too far into irredeemable, IMHO. I’d say the same thing about the kid bit in Kenobi as well (it felt gratuitous).

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BedeHistory731 said:

Turning Anakin into “School Shooter in Space” just pushes him too far into irredeemable, IMHO. I’d say the same thing about the kid bit in Kenobi as well (it felt gratuitous).

This is why the PT and OT are fundamentally incompatible, for me. There’s no universe in which I as an audience member would buy Anakin’s redemption if I knew he slaughtered children.

Twice.

If the editing was up to me, I would make the Sand People scene in AOTC a dream sequence that he later relates to Padme, and have the Temple massacre happen when Anakin is already on Mustafar.

I imagine that George pushed Anakin’s actions to such an extreme because of arguments which happened during ROTJ. I think this was from the Rinzler book, but other members of the team didn’t like the character of Luke essentially excusing his father’s genocide. George’s rebuttal was that this was a fairy tale with religious themes where anyone can be forgiven no matter what, and intentionally went about creating an irredeemable monster in the prequels to prove his point.

I think George gets it wrong, however. Of course in a Christian sense a person can be forgiven for any act, but that is between the sinner and God. Mere mortals aren’t expected to forgive atrocities, and not only is Luke mortal but he is the audience surrogate. For Luke to forgive his father is, in the context of the entire saga, for the audience to forgive the slaughter of children.

It wasn’t always like this. For twenty years, Luke in the OT was fighting for the ‘good man’ who was Anakin Skywalker.

“He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.”
“There is still good in him.”
“He’s more machine now, than man…twisted and evil.”

Anakin in the OT was good up to the time when Luke was born, with his evil coinciding with the replacement of much of his body with metal. Anakin in the PT was a monster before the war. He was never a good man.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Yeah, I feel like the emergent aspects of removing the youngling stuff from the PT holds its own weight over and against what is needed to interpret Kenobi.

I bet Reva’s stuff could be edited a bit just to remove the explicit depiction of Anakin killing kids right then and there, making it a bit more general than that. She was betrayed by Anakin as well as the rest of the Jedi, and that was traumatizing. Who knows? Not yet at least.

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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Hello, Hal, my friend. I just wanted to tune in and say that your AOTC and ROTS edits are my go-to now that I started watching the prequels again (with my son). I wanted him to experience the films like they should be (removing cringeworthy, canon-breaking or insulting moments).

However, my one gripe - besides maybe keeping Padme alive because of all the issues it will most likely present in the future (although i personally like this approach) - is that your edits have their own names, omitting the original film titles. Although this isn’t an issue for me, I realized that it took some enjoyment out of my son’s overall impression of the edit - and although i didn’t ask him why (as I later started thinking about it) - I suspect it was because of his knowledge of the film’s titles and that that is how his friends refer to them. Simply put; it doesn’t create an issue, but it can be off-putting for the mind of the young.

So, in that regard, is this something you have ever thought about and if so, would it be an alternative for you to create a new crawl with the original title names so that editors like myself can re-render your edit and present it with the film’s original title?

I’d certainly appreciate it 😃

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Well, I do make ProRes output available, so it ought to be simple enough to splice in the original opening shots of each one if one is so inclined.

Y’know, the re-titling is something I probably wouldn’t do if I were approaching these edits for the firs time right here and now. They started out firmly rooted in the mid-2000s “fan edit the prequels” tradition sparked by The Phantom Edit. And I’ve softened them quite a bit compared to V1 in 2014.

I could make a more deliberately conservative cut that sort of straddles the difference, not to replace but to be there as an alternative. They could use the criteria of, “Your mom who has seen these movies a bunch of times may not even realize anything is different.”

The Phantom Menace - Symbiant
Attack of the Clones - Forbidden
Revenge of the Sith - Betrayed

Eh, probably not. Other such edits are already out there.

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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That is something I’ve always wanted to be honest, though it seems like alot of work.

“You will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view” — Obi-Wan Kenobi

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Tue alternate titles was actually something my friends also brought up when I showed them your edits before TFA released. I think it sticks out to casual fans who may not be into edits in general. Most people might not have this issue, though.

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At the very least, redoing the crawls with After Effects’ virtual camera (like the ST) would be a visual upgrade over whatever was used for the PT.

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In the next three posts, I will outline ideas about what could be changed or reinstated compared to COD, TAS, and LOE for a set of complimentary/alternative presentations of the films that seek to play as nicely as possibly with other media and maybe even to a mixed crowd laced with people who already love the original films. I’m not committing to doing this, but I might want to while I still have access to FCP7!

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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For a super canon-friendly, maximalist edit of TPM, here’s a new change list. Not a replacement for COD, but a new edit. Here’s what do undo.

Use Sir Ridley’s crawl but stick with original TPM title.

Put back the battle droid dialogue to one other, starting when they talk before going into where the Jedi are. (Can still remove “destroy what’s left of them”, but keep “roger roger”)

Put back viceroy line about needing approval from the Senate, but leave out Amidala mentioning a trade boycott

Have them go underwater to Otah Gunga, but trim it up however you can. Only use the first part of the submarine trip.

Put back the scene descending the steps inside the palace discussing political exposition.

Put back jar jar in the droid bay, but ideally remove “how wude.” (If you can remove all three of its instances, great, otherwise leave 2.)

Make sure to include “sitting ducks.” But can still trim up Ric being so delighted by that little droid.

Put back line, “No more commands from her highness today.”

Could put back some of Jar Jar’s handful of, “Muy muy” lines.

Put back the midichlorian intro scene at nighttime as his blood is analyzed, but trim to remove a number and mention of Yoda. See Phantom Edit.

Put back Jar Jar’s grin after Qui-Gon tosses the chance cube.

Recreate the theatrical version of the engine startup sequence for the most part, but still remove “me no watchin’”

Put back Anakin’s “yes!” after Qui-Gon says “these are yours”

Put back “you mean I get to come with you in your starship?”

If any cuts remain to the farewell to Schmi, undo them.

Put back Anakin’s line, “Qui-Gon, sir, wait, I’m tired!”

Put back Qui-Gon’s line, “Tell them to take off!”

Put back scene on Naboo where the Viceroy sits on his walking throne, originally removed because it references the underwater trip to Otah Gungah.

Put back dialogue about Anakin being too old to be trained. (Obi-Wan and Mace each say this.)

Add back in conversation about midichlorians.

Put back scene where Obi-Wan apologizes to Qui-Gon and Jar Jar emerges from the swamp. Be sure to remove added line over shot of company approaching gungans.

Put back whole scene between the Naboo and Boss Nass, including Jar Jar’s hesitancy and cowering.

Revise Jar Jar’s antics throughout the battle. (Keep it as is, but put back “steady, steady” line, “ouch time.” Also, when retreating, imply he’s riding away on the animal and is shot off and lands onto the tank, using a boomer.)

Make it so Anakin still promises Qui-Gon he’ll hide in the cockpit. Make sure to include line referencing this. He can still look like there’s no autopilot.

Put back full death of Qui-Gon scene and follow up conversation with Yoda.

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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For a super canon-friendly, maximalist edit of AOTC, here’s a new change list. Not a replacement for TAS, but a new edit. Here’s what do undo.

Use Sir Ridley’s new title crawl, but with the original AOTC title.

Go ahead and let the camera pan up after the crawl.

Put back Anakin losing his saber and being (more gently?) reprimanded for it. And conversation entering the bar.

Put back in more of Anakin griping, hopefully it works to imply he walked back across the room. We’ll see, err on side of leaving it removed. Keep Anakin talking about Obi-Wan not letting him move on, but not “it’s worse” and after.

Anakin can mention attachment being forbidden.

Yoda and younglings instead of Mace on platform deleted scene.

Put back little description of Boba Fett.

Put back Obi-Wan and Jango’s dialogue, including name drop of Darth Tyranus.

When Obi-Wan reports to Yoda and Windu, put back Mace asking about the assassination of Amidala.

Maybe work harder to have only R2 leave the ship on Geonosis and save the day, as at least one other edit has done. Ideally not flying, though, as it’d be the only time in the films.

Put back the crowdpleasing saber duel with Yoda.

Sidious can address Dooku as ‘Tyrannus.’

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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For a super canon-friendly, maximalist edit of ROTS, here’s a new change list. Not a replacement for LOE, but a new edit. Here’s what do undo.

Use Sir Ridley’s crawl, but use original ROTS title.

Put back line “this is where the fun begins.”

Attempt removing “my powers have doubled since we last met” line.

Use the following order of scenes for the second act of the movie:

  • Anakin and Padme reunite; pregnancy revealed
  • Grievous arrives on Utapau
  • Balcony scene (“love has blinded you”)
  • Nightmare (ends as Anakin walks off, Padme remains asleep)
  • “I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi” deleted scene
  • Obi-Wan telling Anakin that Palpatine requests his presence
  • Opera of Squid Lake
  • Yoda’s counseling session
  • Palpatine appoints Anakin to Council
  • Council unhappy about this
  • Bail’s apartment deleted scene
  • Obi-Wan asking Anakin to spy on Palpatine
  • Jedi traffic scene
  • Padme and Anakin “you’re sounding like a Separatist”
  • Kashyyyk battle
  • 3PO serving drinks political deleted scene
  • Anakin and Obi-Wan farewell, Obi-Wan heads to Utapau
  • Second nightmare with Obi—Wan, “I feel lost” (cuts out before mention of Anakin’s nightmares)
  • Petition of Two Thousand deleted scene
  • Obi-Wan arrives on Utapau

During the opera scene, put back reference to midichlorians.

Put back “I’ve been trained… by Count Dooku.”

Put back Palpatine’s voiceover as Anakin waits in the Council room, talking about Padme.

Reinstate youngling slaughter… maaaybe blend the Sith and normal saber ignition sounds like TFA does (see when Finn lights up on Maz’s planet)

Put back Obi-Wan and Yoda fighting to reenter the Temple.

Put back Kenobi and Yoda planning to destroy the Sith.

Keep trims to Obi-Wan and Padme, but add back in “killing younglings.”

Redo Anakin’s and Padme’s conversation on Mustafar based on what makes sense now.

Reinstate Yoda duel, minding saber ignition sounds for consistency, and referring to L8wrtr’s version.

Put back dialogue about the ‘high ground’ at the end of the duel. (Put back some of this, possibly removing just that line.)

Film ends similarly to the theatrical, of course. Vader can still have his Russian yell, but Padme dies and we see her funeral, etc.

Try to keep the new shots that remove the droids from the twins’ birth. Oh well if it’s not possible. Can’t remember what all shots there are.

Add Jar Jar accompanying Kenobi to deliver Luke to the Lars homestead, and have him get farted on by the eopie while Kenobi turns back to leave.

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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Wow, super interested in all of this, especially episodes 1 and 2! I think there’s definitely an audience for it for people who want to show others your edits without noticing anything “different” but still being improved.

“You will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view” — Obi-Wan Kenobi