dark_jedi said:
So any news on the "new" ESB mix or are we just going to use the previously made version? just curious because SW and ESB are pretty much ready to be authored now.
I know I already asked this but I will try 1 more time, any news on the above quote? it seems I keep getting ignored on this question, or I just have not seen your response to this.
Ah sorry. It would have been done a while ago, but I needed a bit of a break from Star Wars, lol. There's just a little bit of tweaking left for me to do (minor adjustments to the LFE channel) and it'll be finished.
hairy_hen said:
I've double-checked once again just to be sure everything sounds the way it should, and I'm pleased to report that the 5.1 mix is now entirely finished and ready for general use. Here are the download links from Satanika--an AC3 of 448 kbps split into two RAR files. It should be all set to mux with any GOUT-derived video, whether you use the video as is or with your choice of AviSynth script processing.
Part 1: http://www.sendspace.com/file/qq11vb
Part 2: http://www.sendspace.com/file/jd98ys
If any of the links for this or the stereo version expire, just let me know and I'll be happy to re-upload them. I've also updated the first post to include the download links for both so they'll be easy to find.
With two different versions of the soundtrack, there may be some potential confusion about differences between them and which one would best serve a particular type of audio setup. I'll try to make that clear here.
The original 70mm mix featured discrete channels in what we would now probably call a 4.2 layout, with three front screen channels, a mono surround channel driving an array of speakers in the sides and back, and two channels exclusively reserved for low frequency effects, driving whatever speakers or subwoofers a particular theatre was equipped with. The laserdisc mixes from which this recreation is derived are in a matrixed stereo format, with the four main channels folded down into two, encoded in such a way that it can be expanded or "upmixed" back into surround. Note however that this upmixing cannot fully separate the channels from each other, and a certain amount of crosstalk between them will exist regardless of what algorithm is used. The original discrete channel format cannot be fully recovered without an actual transfer from the source, only approximated.
Such upmixing is normally carried out by the receiver during playback, and the stereo version heard this way will deliver excellent results. The bass content, however, will be limited to what is present in the laserdisc mix (which is not insignificant). The 5.1 version was made in order to allow use of the LFE channel, since this was an important part of the 70mm theatrical experience. The upmixing took place in software, with the ATSurround plugin of Foobar 2000 I believe (correct me if I misremembered that), and the LFE channel added in afterwards. The surround experience is very similar to the results from Prologic II, and the added bass gives considerable impact to explosions and spaceship flybys, as well as some more subtle low end. Surround effects emanate equally from both rear speakers, with additional rear stereo ambience derived from the mains.
Which one you should use depends what kind of sound system is being used. I'll give some general guidelines:
If you are listening via 2-channel analog connection, be it the headphone jack of a computer or the stereo out of a dvd player, choose the stereo mix. This applies regardless of whether you are using your tv speakers or large floorstanding tower speakers, and whether you have a surround setup or not.
If you have a 5.1 setup, and are bitstreaming the AC3 signal to a Dolby Digital decoder using a digital connection, or are using a multi-channel analog connection, you should definitely choose the 5.1 version.
If you use a digital connection but do not have a full 5.1 system, you should most likely choose the stereo version. Use your choice of upmixing algorithms in your receiver to match the signal to your speaker layout if you wish.
If you have a subwoofer but less than five speakers, you may achieve acceptable results from using the 5.1 mix, but be aware that by downmixing a file that has already been upmixed from stereo, the quality of sound from the main channels will most likely be inferior to what you will hear from the stereo mix, due to phase artefacts and channel crosstalk. Were the original discrete mix available, it could be downmixed without any significant problems, but that is not the case with this version.
(If you really want to, you could encode your own AC3 in 2.1 layout using the stereo and LFE tracks I've provided, but know going in that the playback of such a format is erratic, depending entirely on the equipment used. My own Onkyo receiver discards the LFE channel when using Prologic II, retaining it only in stereo and DTS Neo:6 modes. A high-end Denon receiver at a hifi home theatre store was completely incapable of using the LFE channel at all, regardless of what listening mode was used; a similarly priced Yamaha successfully used the LFE while automatically engaging THX Surround Decode, and worked in stereo as well. I make no guarantees about going this route.)
I don't know what the surround effect of this mix is like on a 6.1 or 7.1 system, through Prologic IIx or similar algorithms. Ideally the rear channel effects would be spread equally among all the back speakers, to simulate the monaural surround of the original, rather than being relegated to the center back speakers only, but I can't say one way or the other, having never heard it this way.
Anyway, I've gone on a bit, but hopefully these guidelines will be helpful in creating an ideal listening experience for the film. I really hope everyone who obtains this mix will be pleased with it, and I'm very interested in hearing any opinions and feedback you might have. Have to say I'm rather relieved at finally being finished with this--hopefully now I can just watch the film without worrying too much about the sound not being quite what I want it to be! However close this comes to simulating the real 70mm mix, if I've improved the available sonic experience of the film for anyone, through the sound itself or from providing a look back into the film's history, then I've done what I set out to do.
Hairy_hen
Fair play to you what qualifications do you have in this venture into creating the so called original 1977 70mm DOLBY STEREO release?
I’ll have thee copies free please on DVD region1 or region0 please and I’ll give it my fullest DOLBY listening attention!
Only the originals from the 70mm six-track Dolby stereo Dolby format 42 will sound better on DVD/Bluray.
... what?
It seems like your first sentence is asking what qualifies Hairy_Hen to be able to accurately recreate the 70mm Dolby six-track mix. That's simple. He has access to an in-theater recording of the 70mm mix, which he can use to compare what was and what wasn't in that mix.
Since all research that has been done points to the 1993 mix being a fold-down of the Dolby six-track mix with added effects, he used that as a base, then used the 1977 theatrical stereo mix (taken from laserdisc) to replace the parts in the 1993 mix that have added sound effects.
He then had Satanika upmix this track (which was in stereo) to a 5.0 mix. Then, using a combination of the 1997 SE laserdisc 5.1, the 2004 DVD 5.1, and the 1993 stereo mix, he created a brand-new hybrid LFE track for the film that attempts to recreate the LFE of the 70mm mix as faithfully as possible. He then added that to the 5.0 upmix, and voila - a 5.1 Dolby Digital recreation of the 1977 Dolby six-track mix!
Obviously, this isn't perfect, for a few reasons:
1) The 5.1 mix has a center, front right, front left, surround right, and surround left channel, as well as one LFE channel. However, the 1977 six-track mix had three front channels (R, C, L, same as the 5.1 mix), but only one rear surround channel (compared to the two rear surround channels of the 5.1 mix). Also, the 1977 six-track mix had two LFE channels. In other words, it was a 4.2 mix, not a 5.1 mix.
2) Because he was working from an in-theater audio recording made by a fan, there's no way of knowing where certain sound effects would have been placed, or exactly how much LFE would have been present at which time.
3) The 1977 stereo mix, which was used to fill the gaps in the 1993 mix where new sound effects were added, has less dynamic range than the 1993 mix does. Therefore, someone with sharp ears will be able to tell the difference between the two sources. Plus, it's likely that the 1977 stereo mix differs slightly from the 1977 70mm six-track mix, so those parts, while more "original" than the 1993 mix, may not be exactly what they should be for the Dolby six-track mix.
So, while it's not THE Dolby six-track mix, it's damn close, and a very impressive listening experience in its own right, especially for the custom-made LFE track, which kicks the 2004 5.1 mix's ass. Hard.
---
Now, your second sentence seems like you're asking Hairy_hen to send you three free DVD copies of the movie with the 5.1 mix. The post you quoted has the download links for the 5.1 mix itself, which (I would assume) is all that Hairy_hen is going to give out.
Dark_Jedi, however, will soon be releasing version 3 of his custom-made theatrical cut DVDs, which will include hairy_hen's 5.1 mixes.
So you have three options:
1) Download the 5.1 AC3 file and make a DVD of your own using the video 2006 DVD (1977 theatrical disc, obvioulsy)
2) PM someone who already has made a copy and see if they'll be nice enough to send one your way
3) Wait for Dark_Jedi to finish with his V3 DVD set, and get it from him, or from someone who will be getting it from him.
---
Sorry if I misread your post - if I have, disregard mine.
nvm, should have read CA's post closer.
I took his post the same way you did ChainsawAsh.
I see, I see, that would explain. I did read the first page second page and third pages of the thread.
The LFE.1 on 70mm mag would be limited to frequency response at the time. Dolby SR-D specification improved dynamic range and frequency response in the 90's (or was it CDS that did it first) :D the lowest audible tone would only felt, not heard.
Guess what I tried the download and the FLV opens up and sod all happens! sigh
No I’d sooner have DVD that works I have short tolerance for downloading LOL I mean I waited 21 minutes!
The LFE.1 “baby boom” would only come on as and when the mixers wanted it to
Same goes with the monaural surround and basically STAR WARS is 4.1 mix since its playing the same signal twice on the subwoofer track.
4.2 would be possible on DVD and it would be a first time event!
Re-plugging would be simple on my end to play the baby boom over the inner left/right fronts as an experiment.
I have five matching modified for (B-chain) JBL control 5 monitors or Jedi Blaster Lightsaber loudspeakers x12 JBL control 1 surrounds and single diy JBL 4645 18” sub bass.
Mix the LCR as normal on DVD
Mix the monaural surround onto the LFE.1 in full spectrum
Mix the baby boom onto the surrounds
I can re-plug the JBL sound system in matter of minutes.
"Here they come”!
The door hissing sound! Now does this version have no hissing sound as the stormtroopers lift the door up manually. On the PAL laserdisc the door doesn’t make any hissing sound because the controls have been blastered on the opposite side.
Only the originals from the 70mm six-track Dolby stereo Dolby format 42 will sound better on DVD/Bluray.
skyjedi2005 said:
It would help to destinguish which 70mm mix you mean because according to imdb there was a 70mm 6 track dts of the special edition. Probably only seen in like 2 theaters though,lol.
I do know it was shown i believe at the Royal Premiere in London England.
And at the US premiere. It was not at Grauman's Chinese.
Can't remember the name of the theater its the place they had the premiere for return of the jedi in 1983.
According to the In-70mm site
“Opened Dec 26, 1977:
UNITED KINGDOM
London: Dominion
London: Odeon Leicester Square”
http://www.in70mm.com/news/2003/star_wars/chapters/openings.htm
70mm Blow Up (1977)
Only the originals from the 70mm six-track Dolby stereo Dolby format 42 will sound better on DVD/Bluray.
Jedi Temple34 said:
Guess what I tried the download and the FLV opens up and sod all happens! sigh
No I’d sooner have DVD that works I have short tolerance for downloading LOL I mean I waited 21 minutes!
Alright. I'm not trying to be an asshole, but what you seem to be saying here is, "I'm too lazy to download the file and make the DVD, so someone do it for me and send it to me!" That's not really the way things work around here.
If I were you, I'd wait until Dark_Jedi finishes with his new DVDs, then download those, or see if someone would be kind enough to send them to you.
Jedi Temple34 (or JBListening as he's known in other parts) has an unusual obsession with 70mm and Dolby Stereo, and expresses it in an unfortunately ranting style, but he does seem to know his subject - knowledge and experience that might be useful for the work people are doing here?
JT34 - PM me your details and I'll post you a copy of hairy-hen's mix (possibly synced to some appropriate visuals, but I can't say more than that around here...) It's a fantastic piece of work and I expect you'll be duly impressed.
And cut him some slack, CA...you can't expect him to wait for 21 minutes!
Today, I was transported to that galaxy again when I finally listened to this on my receiver. Again, just the 2.0 dolby surround version muxed with the Gout video at 480kbps, and holy shit! how good it sounds. I listened to it on my repaired Pioneer 7.1 receiver ;) through a coaxial cable connected to my DVD, I only have a 5.1 configuration at the moment and I have a couple of presets I can go with, but I choose to use my Home THX modes, Dolby Pro Logic+THX, Dolby Pro Logic II Movie+THX and Neo:6 Cinema+THX. And I was blow away! not only by your efforts but I was very surprised how much better and more powerful it sounds compared to the official 192kbps, the bitrate actually made a difference on my setup, especially in the small nuances in the music and most explosions, cannot believe I haven't encoded these audiotracks with a higher bitrate before.
Anyway, I settled with Dolby Pro Logic II Movie+THX which simulates a 5.1 sound experience, the other two presets sounded very similiar but I thought this had a slight edge over the others and sounded more natural. Even though I'm familiar with all the changes in the '93 remix I had to rewind the film several times especially as the reinserted original explosions in the beginning of the film sounds so natural, so I forgot about the editing sometimes and that's a good sign of hairy_hen's recreation!
I'm actually surprised of how little response this beautiful editing work of hairy_hen has recieved, to me you have restored half of the movie experience of the original Star Wars, now it's just the video transfer left. ;)
hairy_hen said:
Actually, I wonder if it would have been better to use the '85 mix for the replacements instead of the '77. It sounds like it is an exact transfer of the 35mm version (with C-3PO's extra line dubbed on top of it), but it is reported to have wider stereo imaging than the original. I haven't actually heard it in a while (never bothered to obtain a pcm copy because I didn't think I needed it before). Seems likely the wider image would have been obtained through some kind of post-processing, so it's probably not an exact match to the '93, but it might have been closer and made it a bit more seamless. Oh well.
I hope you'll consider to try it out sometimes in the future if you happen to get your hands on a pcm capture of the '85 remix. Even though it's already fantastic in its current form, any improvements are always welcome.
Will get back to you when I've listened to your 5.1 version, I think I'll wait until I have dark_jedi's Gout v.3 in my hands, to save some discs.
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
I actually have yet to watch the film with the 70mm recreation, so in my mind it doesn't quite have accompanying imagery yet. I have only heard it played on my computer via optical cable to the receiver. I plan to watch all three films in 5.1 once the dark_jedi encodes are available, which will be the first time I have seen any of them in several months. It's been long enough now that I'm quite looking forward to it (I had to take a break from anything related to Star Wars for a while because I was getting overloaded by it, lol).
"Here they come”!
The door hissing sound! Now does this version have no hissing sound as the stormtroopers lift the door up manually. On the PAL laserdisc the door doesn’t make any hissing sound because the controls have been blastered on the opposite side.
I've never owned a laserdisc player, least of all in PAL format, but the hissing sound of the rising door can clearly be heard in the 70mm in-theatre recording, and consequently in the 1993 mix, as well as this recreation. I also checked the 35mm stereo and mono mixes and the 1985 home video version and all contain this sound effect, so I'm not sure what this is referring to.
I forgot to mention a minor thing, I don't know if it's a pop/click from your editing or if it's just some leftover from Luke's supposed spitting sound but it's audible. It's a very small thing, you won't notice it if you don't know about it. If you really love that spitting sound however and want it restored :) I guess it's very easy to reinsert it into the regular 2.0 version. ;)
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
Since that edit was from a long time ago I don't remember exactly, but I think the sound you're hearing is a repetition of their footsteps as they begin to run.
If I recall correctly, it was the only way it could be arranged so that there was no obvious shift in the rhythm of the background noise, which had a kind of regular pulsing sound. It would have been easier with discrete channels, since it could presumably be cut from the centre channel only without affecting the rest of the mix, but we are limited to stereo. Although even some 5.1 mixes have a bit of dialogue overlap into the left and right channels, so who knows.
Mallwalker posted in d_j's thread about some errors in the first copy of the '93 pcm that Belbucus later corrected. I've never heard any of those, so I don't know whether it is worth making another version to fix them or not. The picture looks like a very small pop or click in the left channel over the course of 6 samples, or 1/8 of a millisecond. I suppose if I did end up correcting them, I'd put the spit sound back in, since it 'should' be there for authenticity's sake, even if it is a mistake. I have definitely heard at least one glitch in the '93 mix that occurs during the main title (the beginning of the second phrase of music, corresponding to the second paragraph of text in the pre-ANH crawl), which is also a clicking sound in the left channel. But since this is also heard in the GOUT, it appears to have always been this way. Whether the 70mm printmaster itself was a bit damaged or if it was simply an error in the transfer, I don't know.
There are also two such clicks in ESB--one as the probe droid emerges after landing on Hoth, the other as the Falcon detaches from the Avenger. Both appear in the GOUT as well; no idea what caused them.
In news more interesting than the pointing out of tiny audio errors (lol), I've completed work on the new 5.1 for ESB. Just waiting to hear back about doing the upmix.
There ended up being four changes to the main channel sound of the '93 mix; two of which were repairing glitches, the other two being creative choices. The first is the insertion of the snowspeeder crash sound from the '80 stereo, and the other uses the more complete and unedited music cue for Boba Fett's departure as heard in the '97 mix.
I was considering including all of the relevant SE music edits, but in the end this was the only one that made a positive difference. The original edit of this cue is cringe-worthy, very clumsily done and distracting, and I think the scene is improved by using the music as composed. But the Imperial march transitions seemed too loud for nothing happening onscreen, and the others aren't really significant enough to bother with. That's my opinion, anyway, plus I'm accustomed to the way they sound, and the fewer changes overall the better, generally speaking.
The LFE channel has been optimised to blend with the 1993 mix, similarly to what was done for Star Wars. Being the SE, there were several bass effects way louder than they should have been, but many were at a strong level that fell short of being overwhelming, so I didn't have to do that much. A couple times I added bass where there wasn't any or brought up the existing volume to be more noticeable. All the SE's sometimes have this weird thing where bass doesn't come in until about 1/4 second after the main channel sound effect it accompanies, but in some instances I find that a more direct synch gives better results.
I should point out again that this is not an exact 70mm mix for Empire--without an actual recording to base it on, no version could reliably be named as such. However, the overall feel of it should for the most part be very similar, with strong dynamic range and powerful bass, and a general sense of 'rightness'. Hopefully it will be available soon.
Sounds great, HH! I'm very glad to hear about the fix to the Snowspeeder sound effect.
Just curious - did you do the same thing with the LFE channel for your previous Jedi 5.1? If not, would you consider it to bring it in line with your Star Wars and Empire 5.1 mixes?
RotJ was done fairly quickly last year, and I didn't spend as much time perfecting it as I have for these more recent versions. Hardly any adjustment was made to the LFE beyond synchronising it to the original film edit. For the most part it sounds fine, but I recently realised that there are some places where the bass does again get too loud. So I am considering going back to correct them, though it wouldn't be anything particularly drastic.
Any updates?
hairy_hen said:
RotJ was done fairly quickly last year, and I didn't spend as much time perfecting it as I have for these more recent versions. Hardly any adjustment was made to the LFE beyond synchronising it to the original film edit. For the most part it sounds fine, but I recently realised that there are some places where the bass does again get too loud. So I am considering going back to correct them, though it wouldn't be anything particularly drastic.
So wait, is there a 5.1 70mm sound mix recreation or similar for ESB and ROTJ then?
Not exactly 70mm because we can't know what audio differences were present, but my versions capture the general feel of what they would have been like, if not the specifics. The RotJ mix I refer to above is the one present on dark_jedi's previous encodes. Sorry for causing confusion about different versions; it comes from the fact that successfully recreating a theatrical mix will automatically garner more interest on this board than something that is a fan-made hybrid, which is what my other mixes are.
Anyway--I just started a new job, and so haven't yet been able to send the ESB files to Satanika as I had planned, but I will be doing that as soon as I can.
hairy_hen said:
Not exactly 70mm because we can't know what audio differences were present, but my versions capture the general feel of what they would have been like, if not the specifics. The RotJ mix I refer to above is the one present on dark_jedi's previous encodes. Sorry for causing confusion about different versions; it comes from the fact that successfully recreating a theatrical mix will automatically garner more interest on this board than something that is a fan-made hybrid, which is what my other mixes are.
Anyway--I just started a new job, and so haven't yet been able to send the ESB files to Satanika as I had planned, but I will be doing that as soon as I can.
Hey no problem hairy_hen, I just got a bit excited that's all! hehe.
I love your work on the '77 5.1 mix from the little sample dark_jedi of his V3 GOUT. To me it sounds so fresh and dynamic. Can't wait to hear it in it's entirety when dark_jedi's v3 release of his GOUT project is out.
Are there any plans for further changes in the ESB and ROTJ mixes in the future or are you too busy to even begin thinking about those? :-P
(sorry if these questions are in the wrong thread - I didn't see another one for your previous ESB and ROTJ mixes)
EvilSupes said:
I love your work on the '77 5.1 mix from the little sample dark_jedi of his V3 GOUT. To me it sounds so fresh and dynamic. Can't wait to hear it in it's entirety when dark_jedi's v3 release of his GOUT project is out.
Hey, you can listen to it now, it is included in my STAR WARS : Partly Despecialized Edition v2.1 AVCHD, which I know you already have ;-)
I've checked over the file from Satanika and everything sounds just the way it should, so I'm pleased to announce that my rendition of Empire in 5.1 is now available for general use. To my ear this is the best-sounding audio version of the film out there--it has a very good balance without anything standing out as flashy or out of place, with strong dynamics and powerful bass when appropriate. Its overall quality is most likely very similar to what the 70mm mix would have sounded like, though it does not claim to represent that version in its specific details. The AC3 file is split into a two part rar archive.
Part one: http://www.sendspace.com/file/9lphp7
Part two: http://www.sendspace.com/file/vwz779
Anyone wishing to use my audio for their own projects is welcome to do so, provided the video is properly synched to the NTSC version of the GOUT. I'd be very interested in hearing feedback and impressions of this mix from anyone who obtains it.
Did you encode these at 448k from the uncompressed master .wav file? :)
The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.