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Star Wars 1977 70mm sound mix recreation [stereo and 5.1 versions now available] (Released) — Page 26

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I'm curious as to what the sources are for some of these amazing sound mixes heard on Harmy's releases.

I know that the 1977 surround track was put together by hairy_hen, and read how this was done and it's amazing work...truly. 

The source for the LD tracks is obvious, but what are the sources for the SW 77 mono track?

Also curious about the sources for the lossless 1980 ESB surround, stereo and mono mixes.

As these are all presented in lossless with harmy's editions, I'm wondering if the sources were lossless as well.

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone with insight on this...cheers.

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Most sources for the English audio were from Laserdisc, we have nice mixes now (not necessarily exactly the same as those used for the DeEd's) that use "best of breed" releases, with patched over dropouts, etc.  So it's lossless in the sense that it's from Laserdisc, mostly digital audio, but occasionally patched over with analogue audio, originally 44.1k 16 bit lossless, resampled to 48k.

"Lossless" is always a bit of a dodgy term, because much could have been altered for the Laserdisc release (dynamics, channel separation, etc), but that's pretty much exactly as good as Blu-ray lossless in that sense--moreso in that they didn't routinely tweak the audio so much back then.

The Star Wars mono mix is mostly from a capture of a European TV broadcast, expertly cleaned up and synced, and doesn't really sound much worse than partial captures we've gotten directly from 35mm--academy mono really wasn't all that great, so it seems that's just about as good as it sounded originally.  Empire 16mm mono mix is, surprise, from a 16mm film capture, and is pretty rough.

This thread is about one mix in particular, just the 6-channel 1977 70mm reconstruction, which is from multiple sources, all Laserdisc IIRC except that some of the LFE track is derived from the Blu-rays.

IIRC these 6-channel mixes for ESB and ROTJ are content-equivalent to "tasteful upmixes" of the original stereo mixes, not reconstructions of the original 6-channel mixes.  ESB's theatrical 6-channel mix was entirely different, matched an entirely different 70mm cut of the video, and our best source is a pretty dodgy-sounding 8mm capture that's missing some big chunks--and we don't have a complete re-creation of that.  ROTJ's theatrical 6-channel mix has no known differences from the stereo mix content-wise (but no reference either, so who knows), so a tasteful upmix of the stereo mix may very well be pretty close.  ESB got some LFE from the Blu-rays in the latest iteration, ROTJ will probably get the same treatment once ROTJ DeEd 2.x is closer.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Wow, thanks for much for the detailed answer, CatBus, much appreciated.  It's good info and exactly what I was looking for.

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All links are broken for me. Could someone pm me working ones?

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Codeman said:

All links are broken for me. Could someone pm me working ones?

Me as well if you get them.

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All of these mixes are included in the Despecialized Edition for all three films.

she/her
mwah

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Hi hairy_hen.

I’m in the process of writing a new musical score to the original Star Wars film, and your sound mix recreation interested me. I am seeking a “scoreless” version of the film, with none of Williams’s music, so that I can insert my own score into the film. Since you created an isolated score for the original film, do you also have access to the sound mix without the score?

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Now that is one hell of a gargantuan task, trying to outdo John Williams’s score…

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“Outdo” will never happen, but when it comes finding a film to write a massive, epic score, Star Wars is definitely the best. And Williams provided an awesome example to follow! So far I’ve been writing music and just muting the film’s audio, but you can’t get the full experience without dialogue and SFX.

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You may be able to find snippents without music hear and there. I know the Blu Ray special features have at least a little bit without music. You may also be able to isolate the effects and dialogue, but it may not sound very good. You should make your own thread and keep us updated!

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It will be impossible to “remove” the score. You can probably get pretty good dialogue from the center channel on the blu ray’s audio, but sound effects are another story.

If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…

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hairy_hen, I know the 1993 Laserdiscs are stereo matrixed to Dolby Stereo 4.0.
I don’t know how you split the center surround channel to the left surround and right surround channels but it’s amazing.

I think your mixes are the matrixed 4.0 surround versions but enhanced.
Your mixes are in DTS-HD Master Audio in the Despecialized Editions so are you working with DTS-HD Master Audio Encoding Suite?
You can do an even better version in 6.1 if you do use it.

It can have the original center surround channel from the matrixed 1993 Laserdisc mixes while having your custom left surround and right surround channels.

Again, I suggest you update them in 6.1.

I always nitpick the fact that the official Special Edition Blu-ray is the only one with 6.1 audio and Harmy’s Despecialized is only 5.1 but the stereo and mono mixes are very great.

And speaking of mono mixes, can Harmy add the mono mix for ROTJ from Return of the Pug in DTS-HD MA 1.0?
It’s the only one in the trilogy without a mono mix and Return of the Pug is in mono, I presume.
I never watched Return of the Pug or the other Puggo 16mm versions.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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There should be no need for 6.1 as the original source format of the matrixed 4.0 perfectly fits into the 5.1 system by having the rear surrounds recreate that back center channel as the rear is simply phase split to repurpose the original track into a stereo surround setup without changing any content. This is how it is supposed to be done in the professional realm.
Also the discrete 70mm source would work in a similar way by having the front LCR and the rear mono surround merely split across L and R surrounds.
What is bad about 6.1 is that the center rear naturally creates listener confusion as it makes the sound from the center mix with the rear center and then the sound doesn’t come across as intended. This is why they dumped 6.1 in favor of 7.1 many years ago and the fact that the audio mixes are still stuck in this outdated format on the BDs is a further sign of the lack of care and incompetence shown throughout their transfer history since 2004.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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For home viewing I prefer 5.1. I don’t see the point in more channels unless you are in a large theater. At least the 5.1 version of the 2011 sound mix is on the DVD copy in the BR/DVD trilogy sets. I found that out when I bought the Navajo dubbed DVD so I bought the rest.

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There isn’t any content to make a 6.1 mix, since the original material has only a mono surround channel. In theaters this would be played by the entire array of surround speakers, producing a very wide sound filling the entire side and back areas of the room.

In order to approximate this in a home environment, with a typical 5.1 setup, I used the output from Prologic II in movie mode and then manually inverted the polarity of the right surround channel. Doing this prevents the mono surround effects common to both rear channels from forming a phantom center behind the listener, making them wider and more diffuse, as was the intention. Mono surround films typically aim to create a more ambient and less easily localized effect than modern formats, which can pan surround effects in any number of specific directions. (Inverting the right surround also has the side effect of making the upmix at least somewhat listenable if it is downmixed back to stereo again.)

The number of channels used in the delivery format is less important than its ability to reproduce the aesthetic used in initially creating the mix. Sending the mono surround effects to speakers located only in the back of the room would defeat the intention and would have little similarity to the way it was presented in theaters.

If I end up making another version at some point, I may use some different techniques than the existing version, in order to reduce front channel crosstalk into the surrounds and make the LFE more authentic, but the overall approach would still be similar. It is possible that a 4.1 mix might actually be more friendly to those with 7.1 systems, since it is possible to expand it during playback: according to Roger Dressler, playing a mono surround film with the receiver set to Prologic II in music mode will spread the surround effects equally among all four rear speakers. Note that this must be done in music mode, NOT movie mode, or else they will be sent only to the back, which is not at all what we want. This trick will not work with my current version, since the surround effects are decorrelated from each other, and I don’t know how that would sound since I only have a 5.1 system myself.

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HH as far as I know the pl2 system was designed around cinema parameters for the movie mode and the music mode is merely more of a gimmick for upmixing what you want at home.
I have heard great things about the new variants of PL doing more accurate matrix decoding for 7.1 systems but I too am still only running 5.1 at home. The gist is that they utilize the two back rear speakers to create a fuller sonic landscape more like the theater would be.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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So, on a modern home surround system (decent quality) which sound mix sounds the best overall for each film? I’m not concerned about content here, just quality, SEs included as I don’t mind editing the track to be in sync/revert content to how I prefer to the version im watching. I actually rather enjoy doing that kind of thing. Also it has a pro logic upmixer so 5.1 vs 2.0 doesn’t really matter to me either as I honestly can’t tell the difference in sound. (Other than 2.0 being more efficient in quality vs bitrate… I know there are differences with digital 5.1 being more discrete and isolated and whatnot but sitting in the center of my surround setup and not isolating and comparing individual channels they sound the same to me)

I would have thought blu ray (for esb and rotj anyway… Anh audio is garbage on BD) and 97 for anh but I’ve heard other reports that the previous mixes (93 in particular) sound even better than the bds and topics such as this fascinate me.

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I’m going to vouch for the '93 mixes, which I believe were on the Faces LaserDisc releases. Whilst only 2.0 - these mixes are incredibly powerful, especially when ProLogic is utilized. I watched ROTJ on Laserdisc with my home theater system a few years back and it shook my entire room.

“That said, there is nothing wrong with mocking prequel lovers and belittling their bad taste.” - Alderaan, 2017

MGGA (Make GOUT Great Again):
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Return-of-the-GOUT-Preservation-and-Restoration/id/55707

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All the different mixes are readily available. Why don’t you just pick one for yourself and enjoy it? Why don’t you trust your own ears?

If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…

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I can’t get the links for the 1977 sound mix to work. Whenever I click the link, the website it directs me to tells me that the links have expired. If you could re-upload the files, that would be great. Thank you.

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If you have Harmy’s Despecialized, they’re all available on the MKV, the 77/80/83 mixes in lossless DTS-HD form and the 85/93 mixes in lossy AC3.

Unless you’re specifically looking for the PCM versions, or don’t have Despecialized in MKV (the AVCHDs are all lossy AC3, and I think they don’t include the 85/93 mixes, though I could be wrong about that).

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There are scoreless mixes of The Original Trilogy ?

Where ?