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Star Trek Deep Space Nine - NTSC DVD Restoration & 1080p HD Enhancement (Emissary Released) — Page 4

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Good luck! And it still seems plenty, plenty of work…

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FrankB said:

Good luck! And it still seems plenty, plenty of work…

Probably, but it’s all the chance we have until CBS could actually be bothered to do something about DS9 and VOY. And we all know how likely that is …

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Have you considered a double TFM process.

Split the video into two TFM streams, one for upper fields, one for lower fields and then combine them to make a 59.94P stream. Any remaining combed frames will be taken care of by the TFM process.

It’s what i use in my simpsons project to deal with cadence breaks and 60i effects.

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 (Edited)

You will get the usual stuttering in cases a) and c). You just make two full-frames out of two fields with this, that’s all. Every section that used pulldown (80-90% of an episode) will stutter, because no doubled frame had been decimated. It’s harder to realize with cartoon, because of natural frame doublings, but try it with natural content.
There is no way, really no way, to get this stutter-free without removing (decimating) the doubled fields (after correct TFM, the doubled frames) of pulldown.

And, by the way, for the b)-type (original 29,97 cgi) this is not the best way to handle either. TFM is a field-matcher, and if you use it on really interlaced content there is nothing to match, because each field has been taken (created) at its very own time, no progressive frames to reconstruct, because there are none. So if the origin is really interlaced you will get
-TFM upper field --> result = interlaced, because there was nothing to match --> post processing of TFM realizes this and if not set to 0 deinterlaces (but not with the best possible quality)
-TFM lower field --> the same, maybe there is a switch that uses the other field for post-processing-deinterlacing, I am not sure at the moment, if not you will get twice the same.
So you get two parts where no TFM-field-matching happened, but only p-p-deinterlacing in rather medium quality, because TFM is not made for this situation. The p-p-deinterlacing is made for the few frames that couldn’t have been matched correctly in an a)-situation (pulldowned 23,976-material).
If you want each field’s content in full-size in 59,9 you should simply bob with highest quality (QTGMC again).

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Interesting suggestions, but I must admit it would probably not work work on my project (or on DS9 and Voyager taken from NTSC in general), mainly because of the problematic hybrid nature of the source material.

You have progressive and interlaced footage, both with different framerates, spliced together.

I even looked into many options so far: Telecine, then decimate; deinterlace, decomb, qtgmc, field blending, field bobbing, field doubling, discarded fields, swapped orders, even filters that were modified to either blend 24p with 30p or reversed by manually defining a framerate.

Nothing ever really produced the desired effect.

I guess I will try the PAL-discs now, since they have a professionally done 25 FPS, which is present uniform and throughout. Perhaps that will work.

But what bugs me most are the release policies by all those multimedia-corporations: I mean when we take a long hard look at how many times certain series were released, re-released, new editions done and then re-re-released again and so on, there was really no time or option to work on them so they could be presented in a standard up-to-date form (like constant framerate)?
Of course, I am no expert on the subject, but I would reckon’ this could be done automatically these days?

After all, we fans have bought so many releases and special editions, paid for so many streaming options and downloads, there was no money left to do this? Seriously???

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Animaxx said:
Nothing ever really produced the desired effect.

Because of the pulldowned sequences that will ALWAYS stutter if not properly decimated. That’s a fact.

I guess I will try the PAL-discs now, since they have a professionally done 25 FPS, which is present uniform and throughout. Perhaps that will work.

I guess I took my mouth a bit too full (can you say this in English?). Yesterday I watched two episodes, and I have to admit there are a few doubles per episode. But only two or three (plus a few always by the end the openig credits), but despite that it really still seems a much better starting point.

But what bugs me most are the release policies by all those multimedia-corporations: I mean when we take a long hard look at how many times certain series were released, re-released, new editions done and then re-re-released again and so on, there was really no time or option to work on them so they could be presented in a standard up-to-date form (like constant framerate)?

Not 100% necessary in the NTSC-world, but costs money. That’s all.

Of course, I am no expert on the subject, but I would reckon’ this could be done automatically these days?

Not in this case. Doing it perfect is really work - and for the c)-scenes still impossible, if you don’t mix (overlay) film and cgis again from the beginning. This would mean HIGH cost. - And THEN they could also scan the film parts again in HD, adapt or improve the cgi-parts and release proper BluRays…

After all, we fans have bought so many releases and special editions, paid for so many streaming options and downloads, there was no money left to do this? Seriously???

They did it with TNG, looked at the results, and decided so. Their reasons must be clear, otherwise they would have produced HD also for DSN and Voyager. Why shouldn’t they?

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FrankB said:

Animaxx said:
Nothing ever really produced the desired effect.

Because of the pulldowned sequences that will ALWAYS stutter if not properly decimated. That’s a fact.

I guess I will try the PAL-discs now, since they have a professionally done 25 FPS, which is present uniform and throughout. Perhaps that will work.

I guess I took my mouth a bit too full (can you say this in English?). Yesterday I watched two episodes, and I have to admit there are a few doubles per episode. But only two or three (plus a few always by the end the openig credits), but despite that it really still seems a much better starting point.

But what bugs me most are the release policies by all those multimedia-corporations: I mean when we take a long hard look at how many times certain series were released, re-released, new editions done and then re-re-released again and so on, there was really no time or option to work on them so they could be presented in a standard up-to-date form (like constant framerate)?

Not 100% necessary in the NTSC-world, but costs money. That’s all.

Of course, I am no expert on the subject, but I would reckon’ this could be done automatically these days?

Not in this case. Doing it perfect is really work - and for the c)-scenes still impossible, if you don’t mix (overlay) film and cgis again from the beginning. This would mean HIGH cost. - And THEN they could also scan the film parts again in HD, adapt or improve the cgi-parts and release proper BluRays…

After all, we fans have bought so many releases and special editions, paid for so many streaming options and downloads, there was no money left to do this? Seriously???

They did it with TNG, looked at the results, and decided so. Their reasons must be clear, otherwise they would have produced HD also for DSN and Voyager. Why shouldn’t they?

Nothing to add. Very true.

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Animaxx said:

I guess I will try the PAL-discs now, since they have a professionally done 25 FPS, which is present uniform and throughout. Perhaps that will work.

I did this earlier this year with the PAL DVD releases of Stargate SG-1 seasons 1-7 and Dark Angel seasons 1 and 2 (the NTSC Dark Angel discs are 4:3, only PAL got a widescreen release). I wanted to have higher resolution copies of both, but I couldn’t put up with PAL speedup. It took a few months of poking and prodding at it before I settled down into a workflow and I got it all done early in the pandemic, as it proved to be a good quarantine project. This is what I did:

  1. Ripped disc with MakeMKV
  2. Disassembled MKVs into components with MKVCleaver and MKVToolNix. The latter program is used to take apart the audio and chapter files, and can export the video file itself at 24000/1001p. MKVCleaver is for the subtitles, as it can export them as idx/subs.
  3. Using MKVToolNix, took the chapter files and convert timing by applying a conversion factor to the start and end times. This is also when I go in and add the chapter titles if available.
  4. Loaded each file in Audacity, changing the speed under effects -> change speed. I used a .959 value for it. You then save in the highest quality you want and take care to preserve the channels, since it won’t save 5.1 properly by default.
  5. Using VobSub Sub File Cutter, loaded the .sub subtitles and used it to modify the timing.
  6. Opened up MKVToolNix and used it to -re-assemble all of the components.
  7. Used Handbrake to reencode the whole thing into whatever format desired. I used x265 at high bitrate for the video and audio and got good results.

This worked for me. There are probably easier ways to do it, but I had decent success with the two programs. I still have all of the seasons I did at their step 6 pre-encoding stage (usually a couple gigs an episode), if someone wants to do something similar to this with them as I lack the processing power to upscale more than short clips.

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Talos said:

Animaxx said:

I guess I will try the PAL-discs now, since they have a professionally done 25 FPS, which is present uniform and throughout. Perhaps that will work.

I did this earlier this year with the PAL DVD releases of Stargate SG-1 seasons 1-7 and Dark Angel seasons 1 and 2 (the NTSC Dark Angel discs are 4:3, only PAL got a widescreen release). I wanted to have higher resolution copies of both, but I couldn’t put up with PAL speedup. It took a few months of poking and prodding at it before I settled down into a workflow and I got it all done early in the pandemic, as it proved to be a good quarantine project. This is what I did:

  1. Ripped disc with MakeMKV
  2. Disassembled MKVs into components with MKVCleaver and MKVToolNix. The latter program is used to take apart the audio and chapter files, and can export the video file itself at 24000/1001p. MKVCleaver is for the subtitles, as it can export them as idx/subs.
  3. Using MKVToolNix, took the chapter files and convert timing by applying a conversion factor to the start and end times. This is also when I go in and add the chapter titles if available.
  4. Loaded each file in Audacity, changing the speed under effects -> change speed. I used a .959 value for it. You then save in the highest quality you want and take care to preserve the channels, since it won’t save 5.1 properly by default.
  5. Using VobSub Sub File Cutter, loaded the .sub subtitles and used it to modify the timing.
  6. Opened up MKVToolNix and used it to -re-assemble all of the components.
  7. Used Handbrake to reencode the whole thing into whatever format desired. I used x265 at high bitrate for the video and audio and got good results.

This worked for me. There are probably easier ways to do it, but I had decent success with the two programs. I still have all of the seasons I did at their step 6 pre-encoding stage (usually a couple gigs an episode), if someone wants to do something similar to this with them as I lack the processing power to upscale more than short clips.

You could try using meGui for the audio. It offers options to change fps of the audio (although calling it fps is not quite true, but makes it easier to work) with or without pitch correction.
Standard changes that are possible are speed ups (anything from 23,976 / 24 / 25) and speed downs.
And the program actually offers several encoding format options and it preserves the 5.1 channels nicely.

When you use the option “without pitch correction” it will adapt the audio to the new length while correcting the pitch to sound right; if you choose “with pitch correction”, the program will adapt the audio to the new length and the audio will remain as it was with the source.

You can adapt to some NTSC sources or PAL by simply pretending 23,976 is 29,970 - sometimes it works, depending on the scene changes (I have tried with Star Trek DS9 and Voyager, on some episodes it worked, on others it didn’t). If you still have to cut the audio to fit, I recommend “Shotcut”: It allows you to cut and alter the audio while keeping the channels intact, it also offers lossless output, so you can later use meGui to change it back into a smaller AC3 that has a similar size to what you had before.

I really suggest you look into it, those are (so far) the only two free software solutions that preserve channels up to 5.1 configuration, which is nice.

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Thanks, I will look into that, MeGui does sound interesting. In the end, after a few trials and experiments, I did end up preserving the 5.1 audio and it worked out well. I just didn’t realize at first that you had to go into Audacity settings and change a setting to allow you to use a custom mix output. Before that, it downmixed everything into 2-channel audio. After changing that setting, it preserved everything, even the oddball four-channel mixes some of the SG-1 discs used.

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Talos said:

Thanks, I will look into that, MeGui does sound interesting. In the end, after a few trials and experiments, I did end up preserving the 5.1 audio and it worked out well. I just didn’t realize at first that you had to go into Audacity settings and change a setting to allow you to use a custom mix output. Before that, it downmixed everything into 2-channel audio. After changing that setting, it preserved everything, even the oddball four-channel mixes some of the SG-1 discs used.

Oh yeah, I remember that strange sound setup on stargate, I think it was the first couple of episodes (DVD 1 and possibly two) of season 2 of SG-1.

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Animaxx said:

Talos said:

Thanks, I will look into that, MeGui does sound interesting. In the end, after a few trials and experiments, I did end up preserving the 5.1 audio and it worked out well. I just didn’t realize at first that you had to go into Audacity settings and change a setting to allow you to use a custom mix output. Before that, it downmixed everything into 2-channel audio. After changing that setting, it preserved everything, even the oddball four-channel mixes some of the SG-1 discs used.

Oh yeah, I remember that strange sound setup on stargate, I think it was the first couple of episodes (DVD 1 and possibly two) of season 2 of SG-1.

Yeah, the start of season 2 is weird. None of the early seasons are consistent in audio languages, channels, commentary, subs, chapters, etc.

I didn’t mean to sidetrack your thread though, I just saw you discussing shifting to a PAL source so I thought I might be able to help by showing what I did on a similar project. You got it under control though!

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Talos said:

Animaxx said:

Talos said:

Thanks, I will look into that, MeGui does sound interesting. In the end, after a few trials and experiments, I did end up preserving the 5.1 audio and it worked out well. I just didn’t realize at first that you had to go into Audacity settings and change a setting to allow you to use a custom mix output. Before that, it downmixed everything into 2-channel audio. After changing that setting, it preserved everything, even the oddball four-channel mixes some of the SG-1 discs used.

Oh yeah, I remember that strange sound setup on stargate, I think it was the first couple of episodes (DVD 1 and possibly two) of season 2 of SG-1.

Yeah, the start of season 2 is weird. None of the early seasons are consistent in audio languages, channels, commentary, subs, chapters, etc.

I didn’t mean to sidetrack your thread though, I just saw you discussing shifting to a PAL source so I thought I might be able to help by showing what I did on a similar project. You got it under control though!

No reason to apologize, I always like hearing from people who enjoy good scifi/fantasy/mystery.

Also, every single person I got in contact with around here added some experience that has proven useful or got me thinking in a different direction.
In my mind: That’s what collaboration looks like - not just getting people together that have worked on the same thing, but getting people together that worked on their own projects with their own experiences, 'cause what may not have worked on one’s own attempts might benefit someone else.

So there really is no side-tracking here, just valuable advice. Thanks.

Also: The ever-shifting production techniques are quite common for tv-series in their sophomore year(s). We can notice such things in shifting sets, production design and also (as you have pointed out) different technical specifications. One really bad example for that is the 90’s scifi “Earth:Final Conflict”.
The cast/sets/everything changed. As for the technical stuff: They switched from 4:3 to 16:9 format midway, sometimes widescreen happened depending on the countries there were released in, most have dolby, some only stereo, I even encountered one with mono. It’s insane.

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In case it’s of use or relevance, there are easier ways of reversing PAL speed up in an audio file.
Admittedly it’s command line, but there are gui interfaces available.

Eac3to has a simple flag -slowdown which does it, so just add that to the end of the command line.

Example to convert a file called ep1.ac3 to a new file called ep1fixed.ac3 you would type:

eac3to ep1.ac3 ep1fixed.ac3 - slowdown

You can also add the required bitrate as a further option (e.g. -384 or -448). I’m not sure what the default is.

I use this for any PAL speedup reversal, although I won’t always go to AC3. You can just use filename ep1fixed.wav if it want uncompressed output, or if you get the required plug ins installed .dts .aac etc.

Hope that’s of help to someone.

Also, vobsub is a quick little program for changing frame rate of subs (i.e. Removing PAL speed up)

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Baobab Archiver said:

In case it’s of use or relevance, there are easier ways of reversing PAL speed up in an audio file.
Admittedly it’s command line, but there are gui interfaces available.

Eac3to has a simple flag -slowdown which does it, so just add that to the end of the command line.

Example to convert a file called ep1.ac3 to a new file called ep1fixed.ac3 you would type:

eac3to ep1.ac3 ep1fixed.ac3 - slowdown

You can also add the required bitrate as a further option (e.g. -384 or -448). I’m not sure what the default is.

I use this for any PAL speedup reversal, although I won’t always go to AC3. You can just use filename ep1fixed.wav if it want uncompressed output, or if you get the required plug ins installed .dts .aac etc.

Hope that’s of help to someone.

Also, vobsub is a quick little program for changing frame rate of subs (i.e. Removing PAL speed up)

Thanks, you made some nice suggestions.

My PAL-Discs should arrive today, depending on the postal service (or in this case when the delivery guy arrives). I hope (since I am not there the whole day) someone will take it and keep it safe in case I am not there, otherwise I would have to pick it up tomorrow at the local postal office.

Fingers crossed. I’d like to get to work asap (meaning this evening).

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I have considered working with the PAL footage myself. It’s an easy solution to the 29.97 / 23.976 fps problem, and while the quality is intrinsically lower than the NTSC version, the difference looks minimal in Season 6. (I have S6 in PAL at the moment, but only S6).

The AviSynth script I call Rio Grande – the one based around QTGMC – runs well against PAL source as well, if you care to try it.

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Joel Hruska said:

I have considered working with the PAL footage myself. It’s an easy solution to the 29.97 / 23.976 fps problem, and while the quality is intrinsically lower than the NTSC version, the difference looks minimal in Season 6. (I have S6 in PAL at the moment, but only S6).

The AviSynth script I call Rio Grande – the one based around QTGMC – runs well against PAL source as well, if you care to try it.

A big and happy welcome to you, Sir. Thank you for joining us.

I am picking up my new PAL-Sets of DS9 and Voyager and will start working on them asap and try your suggestions.

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This is a really nice project. Noughsaid.

For seventeen years the renegade Pfhor scoutship jumped between the closely packed stars of the galactic core. And all over the ship, dancing through the wreckage of the Pfhor computer core, Durandal was laughing…

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Vidmaster said:

This is a really nice project. Noughsaid.

Thanks. Once I get around to actually releasing the episodes, I will include you into my invite-list for the topic.

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I must once again thank Mr. Joel Hruska for his extremely valuable insights into several aspects of this project, specifically how to properly deinterlace source material and restore detail to source footage.

With those pointers, I am really able to get a lot out of the PAL-Source, even before utilizing AI.

Once I am done, I will provide samples (including the source to compare).

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Animaxx said:

… specifically how to properly deinterlace source material and restore detail to source footage.

Can you specify a bit?

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FrankB said:

Animaxx said:

… specifically how to properly deinterlace source material and restore detail to source footage.

Can you specify a bit?

As soon as I get to it, right now I am busy doing a sample. But I will do it, promised.

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Here are a few sample image to compare: Images on the left are from the PAL-DVD without any work (source), images on the right are after filtering and AI enhance.









Looks good, doesn’t it?