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So whats better? Phantom or Clones? — Page 2

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Enter Jimbo, stage left.....

(waits for the fireworks)

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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First of all, congrats HotRod...

OK, to the topic: *sigh* ok, Atack of the Clones is better. Well, it is. Seeing the death star was a great moment, the plot seems to be a little better, acting is not THAT bad, I didn't hate Jar Jar on it, and it has the most PERFECT sound and sound editing I've ever listened in a movie. It deserved technical academy awards.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Definately deserved technical awards, AOTC, but that wouldn't be politically correct so you know the Oscars won't do it. They're already idiots anyway so it doesn't concern me that much.
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Yeah. Lets just hope he puts his joints away before he(she) is born.

4

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What about the second hand smoke inhaled by your wife in the meantime?

"Uhhh... honey? That's not the baby kicking, that's the baby hacking up a prenatal lung."

Sorry, bad one.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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Both films have their good points and their bad points, but if I have to pick I'd have to go with AOTC. Yes, even in spite of the fact that it contains the most putrid dialog I've ever heard ('I've died a little bit each day since you came back into my life.' Ick! Poo!). Wait a minute. That line alone is almost enough for me to change my mind. Maybe I'm not giving TPM its proper due. Hmmm. I'll have to think on that one.

AOTC is or was, the one episode of the prequals that I was most looking forward to. TPM was a fine beginning, but with Clones I was ready for the real story to begin. I just wish that things hadn't been so rushed. With a little more time the romance could have been played out better and more believable.
Keeping The Star Wars Hoiliday Special alive. Once person at a time. Stir, stir, whip, whip, stir, beat, beat.
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Hey, don't forget "are you an angel?"
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Yeah, maybe Lucas has had too long since he wrote a resume.

Rule of resume writing: don't tell me about it, SHOW me. Don't tell me THAT you did it, show me how you did it.

Likewise, don't just put them in a position so I know that they fell in love, SHOW me that they fell in love.

And NO, falling off a Naboo Cow and pretending to be dead does not constitute falling in love.
If you're going to take forever, then I'm having a hotdog!
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Originally posted by: Starboy


1) giving alien races cultural accents rather than language. Having Threepio translate Artoo, and Han repeat back to Chewie everything he said was genius. It worked so well. Because there's so few subtitles, you don't notice as much, but much of the original trilogy was communicated without English. Both new movies fail here, it's either cultural accents (mexican for the junk shop dealer, vaudeville for the announcer, Japanese for the trade federation) or subtitles, and the universe isn't as good.

2) contrived settings. Why the crap is Amidala holding an audience in full dress on her transport ship, to "commend" a droid? Doesn't make sense. And so forth. Doesn't feel natural.

3) obviously the script was written in "higher language." Anakin and Padme don't use contractions very much, for example. However, they still behave and act like normal people you'd see in a TV mini-series. This disconnect makes the whole thing feel unnatural and forced. If you don't have Sir Alec Guinness, you can't expect a shakespearean performance so don't write shakespearean.

4) the movies rush along to endpoints. Lucas is trying to get from Old Republic to the start of A New Hope. He has certain conditions to be met, and the movie seems to be driven by navigating from condition to condition (war, empire, anakin to vader, marraige so that luke and leia can be born...) rather than unfolding naturally. It's a tough situation to be in, and it seems to be too much for Lucas. Again, they feel unnatural.

That being said, as I get used to them, the movies get better. I liked AOTC just because it was exciting. Going back to TPM, I realized there were just a few sticking points ("ye gods" - jarjar (hello? gods? in this universe? it hurt me., midichlorians, "there was no father", "are you an angel?", the attack planning scene with stilted dialogue) and the rest of the movie plugs along pretty well. Like my four points above, AOTC suffers from most of the same problems. A few less major sticking points, but still forced. In the end, it was a fun romp with an exciting battle and tie-together, with a good lead in to the next movie, so I left happy.


Excellent Analysis Starboy. I agree wholeheartedly.

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My first realization was that because of the Star Wars name, I had expectations which led me to dislike the movies. Later I also realized that without the Star Wars name, I would have watched them once, enjoyed them, and never thought of them again.


This is truly poignant. Those movies in the end are just pretty good or ok. Though Magnolia did improve them greatly. For me there is no question which one I like better, its definitely ATOC. And maybe its for all the reason someone gave earlier in this thread...Jake Lloyd's "whoopie", JAR_JAR in my sleep he taunts me as the most obnoxious character ever created (I wish I had the technology to delete him out or get the pre-CG cut of the film), the two headed announcer, watto and the greasy italian thing (that statement about accents and not languages is on the money), gungan's, the roger-roger droids with their retardedness their voices and the way they fight its like three-stooges stupidity, poor CG (it was much better by ATOC, but still could use less), not enough Darth Maul...WHY DEAR GOD, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT"S HOLY and RIGHT...WHY DOES JAR-JAR live and get tons of screen time and DARTH MAUL WHO KICKS MAJOR ASS DIES, GETS LITTLE BY WAY OF PLOT OR SCREEN TIME? WHY???????? Damn. Anakin beating up a little Greedo, lame...anything greedo now royally pisses me off, especially a little kid version. Oh and a really bad yoda in TPM. There is just so much that irritates me, I can't let the story flow in my mind.
16 years I wait and this is what I get???
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Originally posted by: Bossk
What about the second hand smoke inhaled by your wife in the meantime?

"Uhhh... honey? That's not the baby kicking, that's the baby hacking up a prenatal lung."

Sorry, bad one.



Ha!

I only smoke in the garden, or in my chill out room, where I am now!!


http://www.facebook.com/DirtyWookie

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"Chill out room"... I gotta get me one of them. That'll probably be the basement when my wife and I get a place. She says it's mine to do with as I please.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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Every man in a relationship should have a 'chill out room' - somewhere to go play console games, surf the net, watch some sports or vids, listen to music - or just chill.

It should be mad a law - everywhere
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chill out room?? joints???

if hotrod doesnt have a lava lamp in there i owe you all $20...
lol

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Hey, don't forget "are you an angel?"


:cringe:
ewwwww must you remind me...
lol
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
chill out room?? joints???

if hotrod doesnt have a lava lamp in there i owe you all $20...
lol

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Hey, don't forget "are you an angel?"



Actually I don't

http://www.facebook.com/DirtyWookie

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So was that $20 each or do we all have to share?

I think the question of "which film is better TPM or AOTC?' is akin to 'which tastes better horseshit or dogshit?'

Either way it's still a pile of shit in your mouth.

For me I'd say that from a film making and narrative standpoint TPM emerges as the slightly better product. It's a more cohesive whole where AOTC feels like it was slammed together out of the poorly shot leftover parts of something better and edited by a Rhesus monkey with ADHD.

Not that TPM is in any way an enjoyable experience but it's a slightly preferable one, like having to choose the method of one's own execution.

I realise that in some ways AOTC is trying to pander to what it expects a Star Wars fanbase would like to see but I feel it does this at the expense of the narrative and characters. It's a bit like Star Wars porn; poorly written badly acted scene, ACTION, ACTION, MONEY-SHOT, *wipe*, atrociously written disinterestedly acted scene, MORE ACTION, MORE MONEY-SHOTS!! *wipe*.

Maybe I'm just a jaded OT fan who invested too much significance in the minutiae of films I saw in my youth in the late seventies and early eighties or maybe I know what I'm on about and George Lucas should never be allowed near the business end of a pencil, let alone standing behind a camera attempting to direct actors.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Originally posted by: Regicidal_Maniac
So was that $20 each or do we all have to share?

I think the question of "which film is better TPM or AOTC?' is akin to 'which tastes better horseshit or dogshit?'

Either way it's still a pile of shit in your mouth.

For me I'd say that from a film making and narrative standpoint TPM emerges as the slightly better product. It's a more cohesive whole where AOTC feels like it was slammed together out of the poorly shot leftover parts of something better and edited by a Rhesus monkey with ADHD.

Not that TPM is in any way an enjoyable experience but it's a slightly preferable one, like having to choose the method of one's own execution.

I realise that in some ways AOTC is trying to pander to what it expects a Star Wars fanbase would like to see but I feel it does this at the expense of the narrative and characters. It's a bit like Star Wars porn; poorly written badly acted scene, ACTION, ACTION, MONEY-SHOT, *wipe*, atrociously written disinterestedly acted scene, MORE ACTION, MORE MONEY-SHOTS!! *wipe*.

Maybe I'm just a jaded OT fan who invested too much significance in the minutiae of films I saw in my youth in the late seventies and early eighties or maybe I know what I'm on about and George Lucas should never be allowed near the business end of a pencil, let alone standing behind a camera attempting to direct actors.



Now this is not to try to go after you personally Regicidal_Maniac, but to make a general observation. I had a debate with a friend of mine a long time ago about The Phantom Menace in this case. He thought it ruined Star Wars with Star Trek sounding "midi-chlorians" and a sacrilreligious virgin birth. I said ok, we can agree to disagree here. However he then brought up every other point pretty much I have ever seen about the prequals. This coming about a year after the theatrical release of TPM, I think I had my widescreen tape. But here was a big problem, at least I thought. Where as I went in to see TPM not hearing virtually anything review-wise or anything on the film, he had. ALOT of it. I told him I thought his opinion was influenced overtly and in cases completely by reviews and information of that nature. Now here are a few questions I thought would take this thread in an interesting direction for discussion and debate.

1. Do you think a negative opinion of the prequals is influenced by the explictly negative opinions you find on EVERY message board in some form or another?

2. Conversely, do you think going to more GL-support site message boards like TFN or watching alot of documentry material by Mr. Lucas influences positive opinions of the prequals?

3. For fans in the middle, do you think the combination of extreme opinions on both sides inclines them more to stay on the fence?

4. For those who do not like the prequals only, do you buy the DVD's?

And finally for what I can think of right now,

5. Do you think the impact of the theatrical box office and how many DVD's and VHS of both The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones have been sold has been primarily written off as "hype", dismissed, or other wise not discussed or considered that much?

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Originally posted by: Jedi Master DJR


1. Do you think a negative opinion of the prequals is influenced by the explictly negative opinions you find on EVERY message board in some form or another?


Generally speaking, I'd say yes. I think people's opinions are influenced quite a bit by what they read elsewhere. If you read about how much a movie sucks, chances are you'll watch it and just be thinking of the bad things people have said about it.
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2. Conversely, do you think going to more GL-support site message boards like TFN or watching alot of documentry material by Mr. Lucas influences positive opinions of the prequals?


Not so much the GL-supported sites. Most of the people there tend to be idiots and are more yes-men than they are fans. But I do sometimes get the slightest bit of respect when watching some of the documentaries, mainly the ones on how they did models, etc. But that all goes away after reading the tons of docus on CGing characters, especially the one on Yoda.

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3. For fans in the middle, do you think the combination of extreme opinions on both sides inclines them more to stay on the fence?


I think most of them will lean towards then newer DVDs, as they seem to be only interested in getting entertained out of Star Wars, which the new ones will probably still have. They'll watch them and when they get to the changes, they'll probably say "Oh well," and go on with their lives.

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4. For those who do not like the prequals only, do you buy the DVD's?


Yep. Got both of them. I find them to be alright, I really don't "not like" them (wow, how's that for good English?). If you've ever seen the final episode of MASH, it explains this well. Winchester resents having someone else take a book out of his series, even though he doesn't like it. When asked why, he says it completes the set and not having it is like having a missing tooth in a smile.

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And finally for what I can think of right now,

5. Do you think the impact of the theatrical box office and how many DVD's and VHS of both The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones have been sold has been primarily written off as "hype", dismissed, or other wise not discussed or considered that much?


I don't think amount of units sold and box office profits indicate a good or bad movie. There have been plenty of movies with low box-office results that were quite good, and plenty of movies with high profits that were bad. Money is not a good indicator of success.

Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here, this is the war room!

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Originally posted by: Regicidal_Maniac
So was that $20 each or do we all have to share?

I think the question of "which film is better TPM or AOTC?' is akin to 'which tastes better horseshit or dogshit?'

Either way it's still a pile of shit in your mouth.

For me I'd say that from a film making and narrative standpoint TPM emerges as the slightly better product. It's a more cohesive whole where AOTC feels like it was slammed together out of the poorly shot leftover parts of something better and edited by a Rhesus monkey with ADHD.

Not that TPM is in any way an enjoyable experience but it's a slightly preferable one, like having to choose the method of one's own execution.

I realise that in some ways AOTC is trying to pander to what it expects a Star Wars fanbase would like to see but I feel it does this at the expense of the narrative and characters. It's a bit like Star Wars porn; poorly written badly acted scene, ACTION, ACTION, MONEY-SHOT, *wipe*, atrociously written disinterestedly acted scene, MORE ACTION, MORE MONEY-SHOTS!! *wipe*.

Maybe I'm just a jaded OT fan who invested too much significance in the minutiae of films I saw in my youth in the late seventies and early eighties or maybe I know what I'm on about and George Lucas should never be allowed near the business end of a pencil, let alone standing behind a camera attempting to direct actors.


LMAO!!
too many funny things in this post to quote...
MORE MONEY-SHOTS!!

and did i say $20??
:reaches for edit button:


as to DJR...

1. I dont find that negative opinions from others influence my opinion on the prequels. I know what i like and what i dont regardless of what people think or say. I was the one out of almost everyone i know to say that i disliked Kill Bill. Maybe others are influenced by it i dont know.

2. Again i feel that it is basically a matter of opinion. Nothing can change my belief that these movies were poorly executed. I had high expectations going into the theater for these movies, and how could you not? It's going to be hard to live up to a trilogy such as Star Wars. I do have respect for the man's accomplishments (ie. ILM, Skywalker Sound, Lucasarts) but none of this influences my opinion on his PT.

3. I also think the same as bad_karma24. If they do buy these DVDs in September and find out they're not the same they're not going to demand they're money back or make some big deal out of it. They'll prolly say "they look no different to me"

4. I have bought the DVDs. I do watch certain snippets of the movie either to show off my Home Theatre (sizemic charges) but have never watched through the whole DVD. I also believe in completing the set no matter how bad they are.

5. Box office numbers are just as accurate as the Oscars. People i know and many on this board have said they will only see Episode III to complete the experience. After all it is Star Wars... and going to the theater to see this movie is just an experience in itself. Hell i stood in the pouring rain for AOTC and to be honest with you, had a better time chatting with other fans than i did watching the movie. It's just plain fun!
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."