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So what exactly are you a fan of? — Page 2

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Janskeet said:
DarkFather said:
Janskeet said:

Well I think ALL 3 of the OOT movies are masterpeices, yes including ROTJ. I'm sick of people denouncing ROTJ like it is the OT ugly duckling. It was great. Just as good as the first two. I don't pay attention to any of the other SW stuff out there. 

 

Hang around me for a while, then. You'll be throwing up quite often.

It was "great" to you. Which sounds ridiculous to me, since to me, it sucked.

Well ROTJ is currently #110 on the imdb top 250.  So statistically many more people agree with me than with you. Why did you not like it? I don't think it was that out of line from the previous two movies like the prequels were and since I first saw it when I was twelve it was always pretty much what I expected the conclusion of the story to be like. Was it just the superficial stuff like the ewoks and Jabba or was it more like the cinematic elements like the pacing, editing, and cinematography?

You're using IMDB as a majority appeal. You must out of your mind.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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DarkFather said:
Janskeet said:

Well ROTJ is currently #110 on the imdb top 250.  So statistically many more people agree with me than with you.

You're using IMDB as a majority appeal. You must out of your mind.

 

 How about the fact it's made 500 million dollars, has been released for the home market about 30 times, is beloved by millions the world over, and twenty five years after its release still sells action figures based on even its most obscure characters. Would that be a reasonable appeal to the majority?

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And that can't be said of Empire Strikes Back, plus more?

"Reasonable appeal to the majority." No. Appeal to the majority is one of the absolute lamest paths to go. Because a bunch of people like it, doesn't make it right. I personally refuse to base my opinion of a film based on what the majority likes. That's called being a sheep.

Now, I like The Dark Knight. So did most everyone who bought tickets to see it. However, the fact I like it isn't contingent on what the majority thought about the film. It means I watched it, and I liked it. Period.

If more people agree with you about a subject than me, I hope you realize that means nothing.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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 (Edited)
DarkFather said:

And that can't be said of Empire Strikes Back, plus more?

"Reasonable appeal to the majority." No. Appeal to the majority is one of the absolute lamest paths to go. Because a bunch of people like it, doesn't make it right. I personally refuse to base my opinion of a film based on what the majority likes. That's called being a sheep.

If more people agree with you about a subject than me, I hope you realize that means nothing.

So you object to the majority appeal on principal, not the evidence IMDB provided.

 But since we're talking about the ultimately subjective discussion of quality of a sci-fi/fantasy film, doesn't the extreme-belovedness is has garnered count for something?

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If you feel you need to use the kindergarten logic of majority appeal ("More people are on my side therefore I must be right!!"), I seriously suggest looking somewhere else rather than IMDB. At least use a bad argument with a good source rather than having bad on both sides.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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But since we're talking about the ultimately subjective discussion of quality of a sci-fi/fantasy film, doesn't the extreme-belovedness is has garnered count for something?

It doesn't count for ass when forming my opinion.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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Well I wasn't tryin g to start an argument about who's right and who's wrong based on movie website rankings. I just pointed that out because I thought I would mention it for the hell of it. Plus the people here seem very intolerant of opinions made without evidence to back it up. But why did you not like the movie?

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I will argue that imdb is probably the largest movie ranking website on the internet. I doubt there is another website out there with as many users and ratings as imdb, so I would say it is probably your largest access to movie ratings.

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Also your largest access to sock puppets, juvenilles who vote a film 1 or 10 without much reflection, and spam.

I took a poll on one of the largest internet forums for escapist entertainment: Superherohype. The moderators there crack down on sock puppets and the like. They are the most indescriminate team of moderators on a forum I've ever seen.... I've seen them ban popular, loved, veteran members for the same reasons they'd ban a n00b for breaking certain rules. It's hard to go under the radar when having multiple accounts there. Also the posters there are going to be far more articulate than the posters at IMDB:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=321877

Empire won by a landslide. Every other film was all but left in the dust.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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DarkFather said:

It means I watched it, and I liked it. Period.

Holy shit! Out of this incredibly pointless argument/discussion/whatever, these amazingly profound words were written!

I hope everyone realizes that these words can be used for Return of the Jedi as well. I watched it, I liked it. IMDB and DarkFather's opinion both be damned as far as I am concerned.

I paid to see the Dark Knight, I was really excited about it, only to find myself fighting to stay awake during a really shitty movie. DarkFather obviously disagrees with me on this. And I don't care. I hated Dark Knight, loved ROTJ. What does this really say about either film?

Absolutely nothing!

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Did you even bother following the discussion before making that post?

Discussion about films comes down to whether you liked it or not. The rest is laying out your reasons for your preferance and trying to win others over to your preferance. That's pretty much all it comes down to.

What I was doing is trying to talk some sense into people who use the majority's opinion to form their own. It's a shoddy defense, and it constrains a fan from thinking for themselves. It's unfortunate.

I'd like to see Janskeet's response to the SHH poll before really delving into my reasons for not liking ROTJ.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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I think how you view ROTJ has a lot to do with how old you are and when you saw the film for the first time.

I saw it on opening day in 1983, and back then, there were very few complaints about the film (at least among kids my age) and the reviews I saw were positive as well.

It seems like it took about 20 years for people to decide they didn't like ewoks (lol!) I'm sure there were some who didn't like them back in '83, but my point is that I think that the general consensus was that the film was a home-run, a feat made all the more impressive by the fact that there was SO much anticipation built up for the film.

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You know what? I'm going to go ahead and start stating my reasons for disliking ROTJ. This is me warming up, so rest assured I've hardly even started.

Lucas says the reason he didn't use Wookiees in ROTJ is that he wanted a technologically inferior race. That makes little sense to me. Why couldn't Chewbacca be one of the few of his race that wandered off to learn the mainstream customs? Some might argue that the race on Endor wasn't intended to have the capacity to do such, because Lucas wanted not only a technologically inferior race, but a genetically inferior race (?) which would all be speculation, and ultimately false, since we see that the Ewoks in the film are more than capable of constructing sturdy homes, weapons, traps, and at least Paploo seemed to show the potential of being a skilled speeder driver when taking into account when he hopped onto that speeder it was most definitely his first time being on one.

So what we do have is a technologically inferior race with the potential to be more. So... there goes the whole "official" reason for not having Wookiees instead of teddy bears.

I think Lucas saw that what Kershner and team had done with ESB was make it into something that more leaned toward adults. In all of his "compotent" decision making, he decided it to have the other way around... for the CLIMAX OF A GALACTIC WAR. We see one dead Ewok. The implication of more being dead is highly debatable. None of the heroes die or suffer any great loss or sacrifice. And don't try saying the death of Anakin makes up for all of that... he gets to return of a Force Ghost, which undermines the fact that when you are dead, you are dead. There is no true loss there. Also remember that he was hardly a sympathetic character until you know, the last few minutes of the film. So even if he didn't return as a Force Ghost, only an ultra-emotionally-sensitive viewer would feel any sense of "loss" at the death.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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While you know I generally agree that ROTJ is the weakest film of the trilogy (but still very much enjoyable), I have to nitpick and say that it wasn't Wicket who drove a speeder bike.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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What say you to the rest of my criticism?

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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 (Edited)
DarkFather said:

You know what? I'm going to go ahead and start stating my reasons for disliking ROTJ. This is me warming up, so rest assured I've hardly even started.

Lucas says the reason he didn't use Wookiees in ROTJ is that he wanted a technologically inferior race. That makes little sense to me. Why couldn't Chewbacca be one of the few of his race that wandered off to learn the mainstream customs? Some might argue that the race on Endor wasn't intended to have the capacity to do such, because Lucas wanted not only a technologically inferior race, but a genetically inferior race (?) which would all be speculation, and ultimately false, since we see that the Ewoks in the film are more than capable of constructing sturdy homes, weapons, traps, and at least Wicket seemed to show the potential of being a skilled speeder driver when taking into account when he hopped onto that speeder it was most definitely his first time being on one.

So what we do have is a technologically inferior race with the potential to be more. So... there goes the whole "official" reason for not having Wookiees instead of teddy bears.

I think Lucas saw that what Kershner and team had done with ESB was make it into something that more leaned toward adults. In all of his "compotent" decision making, he decided it to have the other way around... for the CLIMAX OF A GALACTIC WAR. We see one dead Ewok. The implication of more being dead is highly debatable. None of the heroes die or suffer any great loss or sacrifice. And don't try saying the death of Anakin makes up for all of that... he gets to return of a Force Ghost, which undermines the fact that when you are dead, you are dead. There is no true loss there. Also remember that he was hardly a sympathetic character until you know, the last few minutes of the film. So even if he didn't return as a Force Ghost, only an ultra-emotionally-sensitive viewer would feel any sense of "loss" at the death.

 

I had a feeling you were going to bitch about the ewoks. I don't see what the big deal was. Star Wars was not about realistic wars. If you want to go see an acurate portral of what war is like, go see Black Hawk Down or other movies like that. I will agree that Lucas should've given the battle of endore more credibility, but that was not the focus of the movie. Everybody whines that he should've used wookies,. but I think wookies would've been too intelligent of a race for the empire to ignore. The point of Star Wars is not to nitpick the logic of the movie. Star Wars is meant to be in its own world. I thought ROTJ was within reasonable boundaries of the Star Wars world.  Now he prequels, that's a different story.

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 I had a feeling you were going to bitch about the ewoks. I don't see what the big deal was.

I had a feeling you'd give some generalized, half-baked response.

If you want to go see an acurate portral of what war is like, go see Black Hawk Down or other movies like that.

I never asked for extreme realism. Like you yourself say in the next sentence, it needed more credibility. I'd say a lot more credibility.

but that was not the focus of the movie.

I daresay it was a pretty HUGE focus of the movie.

but I think wookies would've been to intelligent of a race for the empire to ignore.

They were worried about technological resources, not the inherent intelligence of the race (which I've pointed out, the Ewoks seem to display the potential to be equally intelligent as the canon Wookiees we have now).

The point of Star Wars is not to nitpick the logic of the movie.

Stop gourging yourself on whatever drug makes you think I'm "nitpicking." Nitpicking is going after tiny, innocuous details, whereas I point out the fatal flaws.

Star Wars is meant to be in its own world.

If only ROTJ had been in the same world as ANH/ESB, instead of taking a trip to Disney World.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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DarkFather said:

What say you to the rest of my criticism?

 

Well, I've made my own threads specifically criticizing what I don't like about ROTJ, and pretty much all of it concerns the first act of the movie.  The rest of it I enjoy.  The non-Luke characters are placeholders, but the Luke-centric stuff makes up for that.  I believe it was phoned in compared to the previous two movies but still good and has wonderful moments amid a sea of mediocrity.

As for your specific complaints, the ewoks never bothered me, nor did the transition from Wookiees to Ewoks.  First of all, his statements on the subject are prone to interpretation.  The whole concept of a wookiee battle came from the rough draft of Star Wars, which was an entirely different story than the one we ended up with.  Like the asteroid chase, it was simply a reused set piece that had to be taken in a new context in terms of the changes in story that had occurred since it was created in 1974.  I agree that ewoks were probably used to appeal to children (and his new daughter in particular), and while I agree with you and groan at George's backlash to the maturity of ESB, the ewoks still don't bother me.  I like them.  I find them realistic and charming enough.  And I've probably been biased by the prequels, but I can't stomach the thought of a wookiee battle after the boring, pointless, and forgettable one we got in ROTS.  Give me ewoks any day!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I'm an adult. Ewoks fail to appeal to me. So we have a whole army in a "war" that I'm supposed to be rooting for that doesn't appeal to me, and the storm troopers are dumber than shit. Han, Leia, and Lando are blander than all hell. So I'm not inspired to root for them. Fisher was on drugs or something, and lost her ability to act. Harrison is as bored as I am, and he wanted his character to die so he could be done with the mess.

Then there's the space battle. It was decent, I'm not going after that.

Vader as a villain has nothing more going for him... he's a puppy on a leash. The main villain we're supposed to be scared of I guess, is a cardboard cut-out. He's so remarkably cliche and predictable that all sense of menace gives way to a laughable quality about him. Someone I think on this forum called him a "used care salesman for the dark side", and that sums it up greatly.

So... there's an absence of a side to really root for. There's an absence of any villain that you can take seriously.

The only parts that I find myself liking are Fisher showing some skin, and some of the Vader VS Luke duel.

Though when he "flips out" on Vader for mentioning his sister, Luke swings his saber around like a dumbass with a baseball bat.

And then there's the whole half regurgitated Death Star scenario. Why did there have to be yet another Death Star as the main threat from the Empire? Talk about lazy.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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ROTJ gets a hard time because of the change in tone. It really isn't that bad. Keep in mind: it's not a prequel despite what George would like you to think! TPM works as a film on its own. In the SW universe, it does leave much to be desired. (Damn midiclhorians!) However it isn't terrible. (Except for the damn midichlorians!) AOTC is absolutely unforgivable. ROTS is tedium save for Ewan McGregor channeling Sir Alec Guinness.

Likes:

SW in theaters-the way it was meant to be seen.

The 1977 ANH

The 1980 and 97 ESB

The 1983 and 97 ROTJ (except for freakin Jedi Rocks-arrgh!)

IV, V, and VI soundtracks.

Kenner toys-especially Power of the Force 2 series action figures and vehicles.

The old Star Wars Insider

Ben's original Krayt dragon call.

The Han Solo Adventures- (Star's End/Revenge/Lost Legacy)

Shatterpoint (SW meets Apocalypse Now)

Boba Fett's real voice.

Jedi Apprentice series-best thing to come out of the prequels. I know they're for "younger readers" but I love them anyway.

Toy lightsabers and blasters.

Jedi Knight/Dark Forces Game Series.

Rogue Squadron Game Series.

Rebel Assault II.

Star Wars Demolition and Jedi Power Battles (Game that nearly made me destroy a PlayStation in frustration!)

Mara Jade

Oh, and Han before ROTJ. Especially Han in IV and before-traveling the space lanes far and wide with loyal Wookie in tow-blasting Rodians from under the table at a moments notice.

This is not to mention old Obi-Wan on some fool's idea of an idealistic crusade...

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.

“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford

My review blog: thehificelluloidmonster.wordpress.com

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ROTJ bad points:

Han is a giant wimp.

Vader is a giant wimp and is a tethered guard dog: VADER? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE?
YOU'D THINK BEING EMPEROR WOULD ALLOW FOR A LATTE BUT NOOOO!

The "final epic" father-son battle is over in a flash- anti-climactic as hell: what happened to Bespin?

The Emperor just sits and gloats.

The ewoks are too tribal and magically set up traps in a matter of moments to stop Imperials.

Chewie has a Tarzan yell.

Leia does relatively nothing but sit around-she shoots a couple of guys, strangles Jabba, and crashes a speeder bike-that's about it.

The Imperial troops on Endor are pathetically stupid.

Lando flies the Falcon in the Battle of Endor!

Boba Fett "dies" like a fool.

Han is blind in the beginning.

Luke's planning skills need work.

Script needed lots of work.

direction could have been light-years ahead.

"He's my brother." "Oh."

The final scene of Star Wars is beyond comprehension of lame! Oh look, I'm Lando-I'm just gonna stand here and clap awkwardly...woo I'm so great!

Good points:

Lando hitting head in close-up.

Palpy's taunts.

Luke having a tantrum and thrashing Vader.

Luke voluntarily surrendering.

Luke has a damaged mechanical hand in a black glove.

Luke in black.

Luke uses force grip on Gammoreans.

Luke getting pissed at Ben.

Jabba gets owned.

The slave outfit-there are you happy? I said it.

Vader's death.

Yoda's death.

Ben and Yoda joined by older Anakin in the force as they stare at Luke.

C3PO's Revenge!

Papaloo on the speeder bike!

I could keep on with good and bad points.

The best shot of the film: Luke setting an ember to his father's armor as the Binary sunset theme begins to wail up in the background. The film should have ended with this and the last shot would have been Luke standing in front of the flames. Oh, that would have been Irvin Kirshner making an actual film about characters instead of this uninspired mediocrity.

Jedi is not a bad movie, but it is disappointing to encounter after the escapism of ANH and the force of ESB. It is painfully obvious that more time could have been used in preproduction, a better director could have been used, and that this one was for the kiddies. I lament for what could have been a true fitting end to the Star Wars Trilogy, but my complaints are only out of nitpicking love for these films.

 

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.

“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford

My review blog: thehificelluloidmonster.wordpress.com