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Alderaan’s constant bitching about Disney almost makes me feel sympathetic towards Disney.
I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.
Should the Prequels be more included into the franchise going forward? — Page 4
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TFA was such a bad movie anyway, it doesn’t matter.
Takes dedication to beat a dead Taun Taun for so long. 😉
Well, everyone knows tenderization is the first step to a great taun taun parmasean.
The second, of course, is acquiring a nice aged wampa-milk parmasean.
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FWIW, I felt TFA had too many PT tie-ins (haven’t seen R1). By “too many”, I mean they were:
- not in any way necessary to advance the story or characters, and
- more likely to cause a “WTF” reaction from moviegoers who have not committed the PT to memory, which I’d say is a sizeable contingent
As I understand it, there were a few PT references in the film that were just fine–I understand there were flags referencing the PT in one scene, and while those didn’t advance the story or plot, they did not trigger any WTF moments or trip up the viewer–so those are fine by me. On the other hand, needlessly mentioning the Sith (what the hell’s a Sith?) and Clones (weren’t they ancient history at the beginning of Star Wars? Why are they even relevant by the time Episode VII rolls around?)–those just needed to go.
What? Are you serious? Both are throwaway lines. Mentions that should only serve to build a larger, unknown universe for anyone who hasn’t seen the other films. Was mentioning the clone wars a “WTF” moment in the original film?
And who says clones are ancient history? Just because we don’t see them used in the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t still a possibility in the ST timeframe.
I am serious. In the “Sith/Empire/First Order” line, you’ve got two things already established as the Big Bad, and a wacky made up lispy name. One of those things was not like the others, and it definitely made me slow down and say “Wait, what did he say? Sith?”
Same with clones. Had the been any indication at all of clones being a real contemporary thing, no problem. But the last mention was three movies and a whole generation back, and even then it was approaching the age of legends. So the reaction on hearing that was “Wait, are those still around?” And then the movie kept going and it seemed the answer was no, actually we were just jerking you around.
The problem is that they should have been throwaway lines, but they jerked me right out of the movie trying to sort out their relevance. YMMV.
I don’t know man, that’s really pretty silly. Honestly doubt many others had the same reaction you did.
Maybe not. Nevertheless, both essentially booted me out of any sort of immersion in the film, and neither was in any way necessary, so I think it would’ve been better without either. In that respect, they’re really not any better than that shaggy Alf impersonator singing in ROTJ:SE, had that been the original cut of ROTJ.
Just when I thought you couldn’t get any sillier…
The Alf guy had a fair amount of screetime and literally yelled into the camera. That’s basically as bad as it gets.
“Perhaps leader Snoke should consider using a clone army.” Are you honestly saying that’s comparable to a '97 quality CGI effect taking up the whole screen and singing the worst song ever recorded?
In the sense that it pulls you right out of the movie, it’s exactly the same. In other senses, I freely admit Alf is worse.
As for Maz’s line, it’s literally two words - “the Sith.” Were you pulled out of the film when Han mentioned King Prana? Or when Rey mentioned the Irving Boys or Ducain? Because I still have no idea what those things are but they never jerk me out of the film when I watch it.
Of course not–talk about silly. Neither of those things are presented in a string of Very Serious Known Quantities as the wacky odd man out (like Sith), nor are they things that are known to the universe but terribly anachronistic in the way they’re presented (like clones). They’re just details of the larger world we don’t know about, like the original mention of the Clone Wars, or Captain Antilles.
Look, it’s clear you disagree. And that’s fine. May I disagree as well?
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I’ll agree to disagree.
I’ll just never understand.
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That’s fine. I explained where I could, but I never intended to change anyone’s mind.
Would counter-examples help? Someone in the ST lists the major battles of the Rebellion: the Battle of Yavin, the Battle of Hoth, the Battle of Wigglypants, and the Battle of Endor. That’s how the Sith line strikes me. Then they talk about how they plan to retire to Alderaan when this is all over. Seems odd too, like the clones line seems to me. Yeah, maybe there really was a Battle of Wigglypants (offscreen), and maybe there are more than one planet named Alderaan, but just out there, without any attempt at explanation… it’s just a WTF line.
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I’d totally accept a Battle of Wigglypants because it’s fairly easy to assume that there were many more battles than few we saw (which is of course not to mention the obvious fact here which is that Sith are in SW movies which most people have seen, though I know that’s not the point). Maz is supposedly many hundreds of years old and if she only mentioned the Empire and The First Order as the threats “through the ages” that would seem kind of “WTF,” to me, at least. Like there were no evil threats before the Empire?
As for clones vs. Alderaan, this is where I really don’t get it. In my mind there’s no indication whatsoever that cloning is a completely ancient and defunct practice. I don’t know where you’re getting that idea from.
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I’d totally accept a Battle of Wigglypants
Now you’re just flirting 😉
As for clones vs. Alderaan, this is where I really don’t get it. In my mind there’s no indication whatsoever that cloning is a completely ancient and defunct practice. I don’t know where you’re getting that idea from.
Well, clones are presented as from the time of lightsabers, which is presented as a dead and gone age. Grand Moff Tarkin, who probably has access to more data on the state of the universe than anyone, is certain the Jedi are all extinct but one. That age is over, even if a few relics remain. Lightsabers, the Old Republic, Clones–these are dusty old history book subjects (all presented as part of the same historical whole), barely a trace left in the present. Then we go through three films spanning several planets, and see evidence of a very few more lightsabers, but not a single clone.
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It definitely seems like the Clone Wars are long gone but I never got the impression that cloning was. It’s a big galaxy, after all (wasn’t Lando supposed to be a clone or something originally?). And “several” planets is only six. Hardly a good sample size.
Anyway, even if it was as extinct as lightsabers and such, what’s to stop Kylo Ren from considering bringing it back? If he already has a lightsaber, why not a clone army?
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Anyway, even if it was as extinct as lightsabers and such, what’s to stop Kylo Ren from considering bringing it back? If he already has a lightsaber, why not a clone army?
I was operating under the assumption that people don’t stop doing things without reason. They clearly stopped making lightsabers because blasters were simply more effective, albeit less elegant (from the available evidence, I have to agree with Han on that score). They stopped cloning for less clear reasons, but there was a war over it, and it’s safe to assume that the clones were on the losing side because none are around by Star Wars, so maybe the clones just didn’t live up to their military potential. In my mind, clones and lightsabers both represent the technological dead ends of the distant past, long since surpassed, with nothing but their nostalgic glow keeping them worth talking about–and that’s at the beginning of Star Wars, let alone three films later.
And yes, Luke can take out a whole sail barge full of blaster-wielding opponents with his lightsaber. But I doubt a lightsaber in the hands of a non-Jedi would be very effective (your three foot range will eventually bite you), and I suspect a Jedi who gave up lightsabers and set his mind to mastering the blaster would be formidable, if considerably less cool-looking. And how many spaceships were outfitted with lightsabers vs blasters? Blasters won the day, long ago. Lightsabers only get points for style.
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Where was it said non Jedi ever used sabers?
Where were you in '77?
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The SW novelization, IIRC.
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If it’s not in the movie…
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Anyway, even if it was as extinct as lightsabers and such, what’s to stop Kylo Ren from considering bringing it back? If he already has a lightsaber, why not a clone army?
I was operating under the assumption that people don’t stop doing things without reason. They clearly stopped making lightsabers because blasters were simply more effective, albeit less elegant (from the available evidence, I have to agree with Han on that score). They stopped cloning for less clear reasons, but there was a war over it, and it’s safe to assume that the clones were on the losing side because none are around by Star Wars, so maybe the clones just didn’t live up to their military potential. In my mind, clones and lightsabers both represent the technological dead ends of the distant past, long since surpassed, with nothing but their nostalgic glow keeping them worth talking about–and that’s at the beginning of Star Wars, let alone three films later.
And yes, Luke can take out a whole sail barge full of blaster-wielding opponents with his lightsaber. But I doubt a lightsaber in the hands of a non-Jedi would be very effective (your three foot range will eventually bite you), and I suspect a Jedi who gave up lightsabers and set his mind to mastering the blaster would be formidable, if considerably less cool-looking. And how many spaceships were outfitted with lightsabers vs blasters? Blasters won the day, long ago. Lightsabers only get points for style.
I still think you’re inferring a lot that isn’t necessarily there.
Lightsabers are a bit different because they are explicitly called Jedi weapons and the of course the Jedi are said to be extinct (and also we know that in our history swords were supplanted by firearms). Literally the only thing we know about clones were that there was a war to do with them and it was some time ago. Anything beyond that is purely a personal extrapolatation you came up with. And personal extrapolations are okay but to take them as a point of fact of the galaxy is where the silliness comes in I think. There’s literally nothing we’re told about clones that preclude them from still being around or even just a possibility.
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There’s literally nothing we’re told about clones that preclude them from still being around or even just a possibility.
Other than that they were once common enough to fight a war over, and nowhere to be found today. Agreed that there’s a chance they may have all collectively decided to do a post-war retreat to Ceti Alpha V and not sign the required release forms allowing them to appear in any films. Same probability as there might really have been a Battle of Wigglypants, or that Vader has a third arm you never see because it’s under his cape. Not mathematically impossible.
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Alderaan’s constant bitching about Disney almost makes me feel sympathetic towards Disney.
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Where was it said non Jedi ever used sabers?
Han beat a dead Tauntaun with one, and considered slicing up a net with one (which is really all your average person could accomplish today with a cutlass). And if you’re including the ST, Finn actually fought with one.
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There’s literally nothing we’re told about clones that preclude them from still being around or even just a possibility.
Other than that they were once common enough to fight a war over, and nowhere to be found today. Agreed that there’s a chance they may have all collectively decided to do a post-war retreat to Ceti Alpha V and not sign the required release forms allowing them to appear in any films. Same probability as there might really have been a Battle of Wigglypants, or that Vader has a third arm you never see because it’s under his cape. Not mathematically impossible.
Again, it’s a big galaxy. Your “nowhere” is just a handful of planets. And we don’t know if we could really say they were “common enough to fight a war over.” Again, if we’re going just by the original film, all we have is the phrase “Clone Wars.” That’s a completely reasonable assumption to make but it is not the only possibility.
Going back, your Alderaan analogy doesn’t really make sense at all. We know with a 100% certainty that Alderaan was destroyed. A closer analogy would be if they mentioned Dantooine. Even though “it has been deserted for some time,” that doesn’t mean there isn’t the possibility that it can become undeserved. And even that’s pushing it, because we are explicitly told that Dantooine has been deserted, whereas with the clones, any idea that they’ve been out of commission is a complete assumption on your part and neither explicitly confirmed nor definitively denied by anything in the any of the films.
Star Wars has always played with our assumptions. We see pretty much all of Vader so it’d be pretty silly to say he has a third arm, but then again we were told that Vader murdered Luke’s father and that turned out to be not the case at all. If they wanted to they could easily retcon the Tonnika sisters or the multitudes of Greeds or whatever into clones and it’d make just about as much sense as Vader being Luke’s father. My point being, again that it’s a big galaxy and the filmmakers shouldn’t feel beholden to the random assumptions of fans on the internet. If it doesn’t explicitly contradict, who cares?
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There’s literally nothing we’re told about clones that preclude them from still being around or even just a possibility.
Other than that they were once common enough to fight a war over, and nowhere to be found today. Agreed that there’s a chance they may have all collectively decided to do a post-war retreat to Ceti Alpha V and not sign the required release forms allowing them to appear in any films. Same probability as there might really have been a Battle of Wigglypants, or that Vader has a third arm you never see because it’s under his cape. Not mathematically impossible.
Again, it’s a big galaxy.
It’s a big cape.
That’s a completely reasonable assumption to make but it is not the only possibility.
I’m just saving this for later.
Going back, your Alderaan analogy doesn’t really make sense at all.
There’s two cities named Portland, there can’t be two planets named Alderaan?
We see pretty much all of Vader so it’d be pretty silly to say he has a third arm
We never see what’s under the cape. It could also be a second mouth, or a third ear. I’m starting to wonder about wings.
the filmmakers shouldn’t feel beholden to the random assumptions of fans on the internet.
I think working with the completely reasonable assumptions is okay, though. Also, keep in mind through this discussion–Switching around Luke’s father advanced a plot point. Switching around Luke’s sister advanced a plot point. Something was gained in trade for the something that was lost. These things? Throwaway lines, as you said. Nothing was gained in exchange for the dissonance–which I’m freely admitting you did not feel.
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No, I don’t think they should, it should be avoided. To be fair, the argument that there are fans who grew up with them holds no water. If people were born under a dictatorship, would that justify them prefering the dictator to an elected leader?
If you ask me, future films shouldn’t be afraid to contradict content from the prequels, or even the expanded universe. Only the OT must be considered untouchable.
Caligula’expanded OST, V2 Released
The Shining’s complete OST
Ghidorah, The Tree-Headed Monster (English dub synched to Toho cut)
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We see pretty much all of Vader so it’d be pretty silly to say he has a third arm
We never see what’s under the cape. It could also be a second mouth, or a third ear. I’m starting to wonder about wings.
We do see him sans cape in ESB.
the filmmakers shouldn’t feel beholden to the random assumptions of fans on the internet.
I think working with the completely reasonable assumptions is okay, though.
Well sure but in this case you’re assuming your assumption is the only reasonable assumption, which I don’t think is true.
Also, keep in mind through this discussion–Switching around Luke’s father advanced a plot point. Switching around Luke’s sister advanced a plot point. Something was gained in trade for the something that was lost. These things? Throwaway lines, as you said. Nothing was gained in exchange for the dissonance–which I’m freely admitting you did not feel.
For you nothing was gained but I don’t think for everyone. Lots of people saw the prequels. Remember the black stormtrooper outrage? That was because a lot of people though stormtroopers were clones because of the prequels. The line about a clone army was mainly to make clear that these stormtroopers were not clones, which unfortunately a not insignificant amount of the population believed.
As for the Sith line, again, if you’ve seen the prequels it would be very strange and quite “WTF” for Maz to not mention the Sith. And even if you haven’t seen the PT, for her list of dark side threats to start and end with the Empire and First Order would kind of negate the point of seeing evil “through the ages.” Two things does not a list make.
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Remember the black stormtrooper outrage? That was because a lot of people though stormtroopers were clones because of the prequels.
Hm. I’m thinking maybe it has a little more in common with the female heroine outrage than you’re letting on, but that’s another topic.
Frankly prequel fans are used to the Star Wars universe not making any sense. Leaving out prequel references when they could be inserted couldn’t possibly be more disruptive than the prequels themselves.
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Frankly prequel fans are used to the Star Wars universe not making any sense. Leaving out prequel references when they could be inserted couldn’t possibly be more disruptive than the prequels themselves.
My thoughts exactly. Prequel fans can still have them, but dammit keep them out of my sequel trilogy.
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Remember the black stormtrooper outrage? That was because a lot of people though stormtroopers were clones because of the prequels.
Hm. I’m thinking maybe it has a little more in common with the female heroine outrage than you’re letting on, but that’s another topic.
Oh no I’m totally with you there but the clone thing was their excuse, and, whether excuse or not, it still meant they most likely honestly thought stormtroopers were clones.
Frankly prequel fans are used to the Star Wars universe not making any sense. Leaving out prequel references when they could be inserted couldn’t possibly be more disruptive than the prequels themselves.
I personally prefer to see it as references to the happenings before the OT that just so happen to not contradict the story the PT told. That’s my philosophy on the whole topic anyway.
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All right, I think we trashed this thread enough. Thanks for humoring me 😉
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Where was it said non Jedi ever used sabers?
Han beat a dead Tauntaun with one, and considered slicing up a net with one (which is really all your average person could accomplish today with a cutlass). And if you’re including the ST, Finn actually fought with one.
Historically speaking as opposed to carrying another type of laser weapon. If laser swords are all the galaxy had as hand weaponry “for a thousand generations”, then technological development in the Star Wars universe took a very strange path.
The Jedi are supposed to be like Samurai. They probably had swords with physical blades early in their history.
Where were you in '77?