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Seeing the Saga in order - a review by a first-time viewer.... — Page 3

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Zombie, AOTC is the only PT movie I remotely enjoy and can still watch to this day (OK, I am running from the hills as you guys pelt me with anything you can get your hands on!)

AOTC is what it is, a movie that doesn't take itself too seriously with the exception of the Padme/Anakin love scenes which were made to be cheesy, so I can take them with a grain of salt. Everytime Lucas tried to get this huge dramaticism in the narrative, it comes off as laughable. ROTS is rife with these moments as it takes itself WAY too seriously, mostly cause it is a tragedy.

TPM just comes off as too childish, and I have never really liked it from day one, but for some reason AOTC got me back on the bandwagon in 2002, cause it was atleast going somewhere, and it wasn't that bad of a movie. I liked Count Dooku, I liked the Kamino part with the Clones, the Clone War were fun to watch, and the lightsaber duel with Dooku atleast had some dialogue and maybe cause i am a fan of Christopher Lee. AOTC didn't fuck up continuity the way ROTS did, atleast Anakin went apeshit cause the Tuskens killed his mom for a revenge factor, which is more believable then some dream and then deciding to turn on EVERY person you know for some trick which isn't explained to you.

I know many here disdain this movie more then TPM, and I know many friends whose hatred of the PT was finalized the minute we walked out of the theater in 2002, but for some reason this movie worked for me. I guess I like it cause this is the only movie that Anakin isn't the main figure in the movie, and though he doesn't have loads of screentime in TPM, by Lucas focusing the movie on this 'boy' you have to watch it in that context. Maybe I will watch the saga 2,4,5,6
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What are you guys talking about, what if?

I though Lucas was remaking the OT.... just ever so slowly.

Bud Um Ching



"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt

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Here is the real problem I'm seeing, something that's been brought up in the last few posts.

People are disliking the originals because they think that the prequels are more the "real" story than the originals simply because they were released recently. The originals now have that cgi look of the prequels because of the SE's except it doesn't mesh well at all with those movies because they were made 20 years earlier, therefore people think of them as being inferior to the prequels which are basically bluescreen epics where everything can conveniently mesh together. This is partly me theorizing on how anyone could actually like the prequels over the originals, which is the real problem I'm seeing. Then again, I do get hopeful whenever I read people's lists of their favorite movies and I see things like "Star Wars before it started sucking," even though that's an equally bandwagon thing to say.
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My 2 cents, being someone that has grown up with the release of the PT and being exposed to alot of stuff on this forum, I also the think that the PT blows, but is cool in different ways--The main complaint of everyone, and in general, is that instead of adapting the PT to the OT, he decided to make the OT the sequels, and not have the PT the prequels, in other words, what the PT had in it goes, and whatever the OT has is a mistake/plot hole. That is a terrible mistake im sure a 16 year old would not have made. Now I'm wondering, how different and (better) do you think the PT would have been if Lucas entursted it to some other director under the age of himself or Canon or Coppala.
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Something I brought up in an earlier post is that it's hard to compare the trilogies objectively. Some people argue that the originals weren't all that good in the first place, so this hubbub about the PT being a collossal dissapointment really isn't a big deal. "Excalibur in outer space" is how one of my friend's friends described it, and that's an interesting description considering this talk about watching it 1-6. Anyway, the other argument is that Star Wars was just fine and dandy until the SE came along. The thing I find interesting is that some people look at the OOT as something you'd only want to enjoy for nostalgiac purposes, which throws this very interesting paradox out there I think. Not only do some people prefer the prequels over the originals (SE or not), they literally believe all this bullshit about the OOT being a "work in progress, half finished movie." It's almost as if they feel that insecure about stepping outside the 1-6 bubble and accepting the OOT as the way 4-6 should be, simply because the SE and the prequels exist.

Another problem is that some people actually grew up when the originals were first being released, and so 16 years go by before they see the prequels. For me, it was only 8 or 9 years at the most between seeing the originals for the first time and seeing TPM. I guess the only way to truly objectively compare everything is to do something like what this guy did, except instead of the SE and the PT it's the OOT and the PT, in either narrative order or original order, just as long as the viewer knows which was actually made first. This is what I mean when I say it's hard to compare everything objectively.

Whereas the originals felt like a mythological time period, the prequels just felt like 3 average movies. And, as we've emphasized already, each of the originals stand on their own whereas each of the prequels all feel the same as one another. Now, with the SE, Lucas has done his best to homogenize the entire thing and make it "Excalibur in outer space" indeed. An interesting irony I'd like to point out is that while Lucas back in the day wanted to evoke the theatrical serials in his episodic structuring of the "saga," today he's saying stuff like "we're moving into television and that's all we're going to focus on." In a hundred years, I wonder if anyone will even remember that these movies were made for the cinema and not for television. Ugh, the more I contribute to this "what might've been" discussion, the more I seriously wish it'd actually been that way.

Something I've thought ever since seeing ROTS is that the Vader suit seemed very tacked onto the end of the movie. It really is the case for them having just foregone it completely and left anakin as he's fallen into the pit, not seeing him again until ANH.

I don't really understand the case for people like Coppola or Spielberg having done the prequels. I by all means agree Lucas should not have directed them, I just think it should've been a modern day equivalent of people like Kershner and Marquand. And writers, that also would've helped.
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I have seen 4-5-1-2-3-6 as a suggested order elsewhere. What do people here think about it?

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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In regards to the Luke/Vader dynamic, yes, I could maybe see that working. On the other hand, Yoda saying "you're father is" to Luke in ROTJ is also speaking to the audience. James Earl Jones didn't even believe it when he read the line. Watching the PT between Empire and Jedi spoils that.

Also, the OT isn't only about Luke and the Skywalkers. That last scene of Empire is just as much if not more about how they're going to get Han back. This gets completely interrupted if you stop to watch the PT between Empire and Jedi.

I still say watch the PT before the OT or don't watch the PT at all.

On a side note, this brings back some good memories. About a year and a half ago, my friend and I sat down with a mutual friend who'd never seen the OT and showed it to him (it was my '04 widescreen boxset). Yea, it was the SE complete with wierd colors and sounds here and there but at least it was good picture and audio quality.....

Anyway, I think he mentioned beforehand that he'd "tried to watch the newer ones (the prequels) but couldn't get into them because they didn't make much sense" or something to that effect. So the three of us sit down to watch the OT. By the way, yes you can definitely still see the garbage mattes depending on your dvd/tv setup. They're as plain as day.

We finish ANH, our friend gets up and goes "next!" So we pop in Empire, that gets done, he goes "next!" By the time we finished Jedi it was the middle of the night. I'd also brought over TPM and AOTC (this was summer of '05) so I let him borrow those to watch. I asked him what he thought of them now that he'd seen the OT and he was like "yea, they make a lot more sense now." I'm assuming he also saw ROTS at some point.

I think this all goes a long way towards proving just how much better than the PT the OT is. You can jump right into ANH but you can't do the same with TPM. I think this shows just how much the prequels would've failed if they'd been made first, back in '77 and with the technology of the time. It's the story we really care about and no amount of SEing has truly ruined the OT, at least not yet.

Another story I'd like to share is rather brief by comparison. A friend of mine's niece is not two years old, but a few months ago he showed her the OT for the first time ('04 widescreen boxset). He noticed that whenever Vader was on screen she was making these wierd sounds with her mouth, but then he realized she was immitating his breathing! Watching it with her also reaffirmed my friend's opinion of just how awesome the OT truly is (even in SE form).
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Vader's breathing is classic. Anyone who knows anything about Star Wars knows how it sounds when Vader breathes. It is so cute that she tried to mimick Vader breathing.


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Heh, that's cute about your niece.

I think your other story, about your friend, really proves that you have to watch the PT after the OT or not at all, not the other way around.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: cap
I have seen 4-5-1-2-3-6 as a suggested order elsewhere. What do people here think about it?


If you are going to introduce the saga, I believe the best way is:

Episode IV
Episode V
Episode VI - stop the movie right after Luke/Obiwan talk on Dagobah about his father.
Episode I
Episode II
Episode III
Episode VI - continue the movie with Luke entering the rebel base to talk about destroying DSII

The reason I would stop right after the ObiWan/Luke talk in ROTJ, is the saga isn't about Vader yet, nor Palpatine, nor the jedi when you watch the OT first. The OT is about Luke, Leia, and Han and eases into the new plot point in ROTJ of Emperor/Vader/Luke battle.

By showing the viewer up to Luke/ObiWan in ROTJ, you keep them in the context of caring about the good guys, and I believe by showing ROTJ in 1-6 order, they won't give a hoot about saving Han in ROTJ, cause they will be so predisposed to the PT storyline that is mostly about Jedi vs Sith, and I will go even farther with 1-6, they probably won't give a shit about Han/Leia romance in ESB either!

By showing the PT after the Obiwan/Luke talk in ROTJ, it is almost like Obiwan is narrating the PT to Luke, as he appears in the first shot in TPM and the last shot in ROTS. Then the remainder of ROTJ keeps in context with the PT story of Jedi vs Sith, or Luke/Vader/Emperor while the overall macro storyline of the rebels vs empire comes to a close as DSII, Vader, and Emperor are all dead at the end of the movie. The End.

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Originally posted by: CO
If you are going to introduce the saga, I believe the best way is:

Episode IV
Episode V
Episode VI - stop the movie right after Luke/Obiwan talk on Dagobah about his father.
Episode I
Episode II
Episode III
Episode VI - continue the movie with Luke entering the rebel base to talk about destroying DSII

The reason I would stop right after the ObiWan/Luke talk in ROTJ, is the saga isn't about Vader yet, nor Palpatine, nor the jedi when you watch the OT first. The OT is about Luke, Leia, and Han and eases into the new plot point in ROTJ of Emperor/Vader/Luke battle.

By showing the viewer up to Luke/ObiWan in ROTJ, you keep them in the context of caring about the good guys, and I believe by showing ROTJ in 1-6 order, they won't give a hoot about saving Han in ROTJ, cause they will be so predisposed to the PT storyline that is mostly about Jedi vs Sith, and I will go even farther with 1-6, they probably won't give a shit about Han/Leia romance in ESB either!

By showing the PT after the Obiwan/Luke talk in ROTJ, it is almost like Obiwan is narrating the PT to Luke, as he appears in the first shot in TPM and the last shot in ROTS. Then the remainder of ROTJ keeps in context with the PT story of Jedi vs Sith, or Luke/Vader/Emperor while the overall macro storyline of the rebels vs empire comes to a close as DSII, Vader, and Emperor are all dead at the end of the movie. The End.


That's a nice approach. If I were able to endorse a serious watching of the PT, I would go with that.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: CO
Godfather II did it to perfection as it mirrored flashbacks all through the movie of young Vito Corleone and how he came to power, and it never made you look at Godfather I in a different way, cause Coppola released a recut version in 1977 of everything in chronological order, and it just didn't work. The problem with the SW saga is it didn't make the backstory a true backstory like Godfather II to begin with to fall back on when the chronological order didn't work.
Hense why we have the SW: Reborn project.

Originally posted by: CO
The end of ROTS is a perfect example of putting in plot points to appease the OT fans. If Lucas wanted to make a compelling 1-6 story, Anakin should have been left burning on Mustafar, and never seen again til he breaks down the door in ANH at the beginning. That way the whole OT you are watching it wondering who this Vader guy, holy shit, it is Anakin! He survived!!! Now there would have to be some dialogue changes in ANH by Kenobi to compliment the linear storytelling, but if Lucas truly wanted the story to be watched in 1-6 fashion, the ending of ROTS would be totally different.

Now that would be a cool fanedit to do!
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I could see a cool fan edit removing many of the more useless cameos and OT-spoilers from the PT.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Heh, that's cute about your niece.

She's my friend's niece. I should've made that a little clearer.

Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I think your other story, about your friend, really proves that you have to watch the PT after the OT or not at all, not the other way around.


Well yea, but if you're going to watch the OT first then what's the point of watching the PT at all?
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Going back to your post, you did make that abundantly clear, so the mistake was mine. Sorry.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I think if GL made all six movies back in the 70s and 80s then it would have been better. After all six came out in 2005 GL did say to watch them 1-6 . The only thing is the pt is all CGI which makes them differnt .

Abit off topic but the PT dvds put the OT dvds to shame coz of the extres . TPM has 6 hours of extres
and loads more on ep II and III .

The best thing to do is watch the classics and forget about the pt
May the force be wth you .........
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Originally posted by: SW
I think if GL made all six movies back in the 70s and 80s then it would have been better. After all six came out in 2005 GL did say to watch them 1-6 . The only thing is the pt is all CGI which makes them differnt .


Well, that and the PT is detrimental to the OT's story if you watch it first. George doesn't know what he's talking about.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: SW
Abit off topic but the PT dvds put the OT dvds to shame coz of the extres . TPM has 6 hours of extres
and loads more on ep II and III.

That's because AOTC and ROTS were new movies and LFL wanted to meet the industry's expected standard for releasing a new movie on dvd in a nice two-disc set with loads of extras, etc. TPM was a bit different because they waited a couple years to release the dvd instead of releasing it at the same time as the vhs, which itself didn't hit shelves until a good year after the movie hit theaters.

That's why the OT dvd was like one huge tradeoff. We got good pq and sq, startlingly good at times, but it was the SE. In terms of the extras, it was very retrospective but there were always mentions of the changes made in '97/'04 and how "it's the way George wants it now."

Originally posted by: SW
I think if GL made all six movies back in the 70s and 80s then it would have been better. After all six came out in 2005 GL did say to watch them 1-6 . The only thing is the pt is all CGI which makes them differnt.


He kept insisting that it was all his. The PT could've been done much differently and much better if Lucas had just collaborated with the kind of people he worked with on Empire and Jedi. I mean seriously, no one can say for certain that those two movies would've been quite as good if Lucas had directed them. Look at a movie like The Return of the King, made during the same era as the PT. 1500 special effects shots, but in a 200 minute movie like that you have no where near every shot using them. That's called good filmmaking. All George felt like doing was playing with the technology at his disposal. As for collaboration, the farthest he ever went was bringing Johnathen Hales to co-write the AOTC screenplay.
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Here's a little discussion of various episode orders. It comes out in favor of 4-5-1-2-3-6.

One other thing about the 4-5-1-2-3-6 order that the article doesn't touch on is the Death Star dynamic.

In any ordering containing the sequence 4-5-6, you see the Death Star get destroyed, and then they have another one just two episodes later. By the time you see the second one, it seems almost routine. Especially if you see 3-4-5-6, Death Stars seem to come and go rather quickly.

On the other hand, it's more dramatic with the Death Stars bookending the series. First we see the Death Star destroy a planet. Then we see it destroyed. Then we see a little of the Empire post-Death Star, winning more battles now, but with the aura of invincibility stripped because it no longer has the power to destroy a whole planet. Then you go to the flashbacks, with a mention of the design of the Death Star at the end of Episode II and the beginning of construction at the end of Episode III to remind you of how important and how terrifying this thing was. Then you get hit with the crawl from Episode VI: Oh my god, they’re building another one.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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I've been watching them in 1-2-3-4-5-6 order, and noticed an interesting effect of this order is that, except for the last one, they just keep getting better. 2 is better than 1; 3 is better than 2; 4 is better than 3; and 5 is better than 4. (I realize that opinions are mixed on 2 versus 1, but it's close, and the general pattern holds.)

Some people in this discussion (including myself) have expressed a desire to maintain the surprise of "I am your Father" in Episode 5. Watching them in order, I have decided that it's not a great loss. We know that Luke doesn't know, so the emotional power of the scene is still there. The surprise is gone, but TESB is such an excellent movie that it doesn't need to rely on a surprise twist ending for its impact. Even without that surprise, it still stands as the best episode of the series.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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For me the bottom line is that ANH is the best film so I will always start there and move through to ROTJ then do TPM-ROTS.ANH changed everything-changed the way I view cinema,changed the way I view the world,changed ME.I am a big fan of certain aspects of the PT (I like the extended scope of the STORY) and I like ROTS a lot but ANH will forever,to me,be the absolute pinnacle of film-making.Visionary and revolutionary.ESB was clearly the most dramatic but ANH started everything and opened my eyes.
IV-VI
I-III
The first experience you have of Star Wars should always be the Tantive roaring onto screen and then that moment with the Star Detroyer.Nothing like it.

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The thing is, that the so-called "A New Hope" is Star Wars! That's its title! To start watching the series of Star Wars movies with anything but the one titled Star Wars just doesn't make any sense!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Now let's not be pedantic.This thread is about the saga,six movies,and the preferrable order.In THAT context Star Wars is ANH.As a matter of fact if we are talking about watching the original trilogy,IV-VI,in any order it is still ANH as it was changed o this pre-ESB thus making Star Wars ANH in every sense other than as a stand-alone.

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http://www.bigbaddaddyvader.com

Original Star Wars Props and Production Material

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I like the idea of the 4-5-1-2-3-6 order. I also like the idea of the 4-5-part of 6-1-2-3-rest of 6 order. I think an awesome fan edit could be done that cuts back to the PT at just the right spot and plays through from there. Either cut in ROTJ right after Obi-Wan and Luke talk about his father, or cut somewhere else.

Another idea, that others have mentioned, would be cutting everything after Anakin "dies" so we don't see him or Palpatine after that. Cut Yoda saying goodbye to Chewie. I don't know if you could still show him lifting off or not, even though it doesn't really matter. Leave everything else with Yoda and Obi-Wan and let ROTS end the way it does. Reincorporate the scene with Yoda landing on Dagobah so we know he ended up there. Then we don't see Vader until ANH (just echoing previous statements).

That would be awesome!
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: bigbaddaddyvader
Now let's not be pedantic.This thread is about the saga,six movies,and the preferrable order.In THAT context Star Wars is ANH.As a matter of fact if we are talking about watching the original trilogy,IV-VI,in any order it is still ANH as it was changed o this pre-ESB thus making Star Wars ANH in every sense other than as a stand-alone.


It's not being pedantic. It's being logical. If I watch the Back to the Future trilogy (or saga if I wish to call it that), I'm going to watch Back to the Future before I watch Back to the Future Part II. If I watch the prequels, I'm going to watch The Phantom Menace before Attack of the Clones. If I watch Star Trek series, I'll watch Star Trek before I watch Enterprise. Title or no, the first movie comes first. The end. I have plenty of other reasons (which I have stated numerous times over the past two years) over why Star Wars (or A New Hope if you insist) should come first, so I didn't feel like restating it. Instead, I wanted to go a new route and take the cleanest bit of logic I could as a reason for watching the films in released order instead of "saga" order. Sorry if my rationale doesn't please you, but, at the end of the day, I really don't care.

And in terms of history, Star Wars, even after A New Hope was added to the title, was still referred to as Star Wars in every home video release until the 2000 VHS boxset (including the 1997 Special Edition boxset), so, no, your own logic doesn't hold water in terms of Star Wars being A New Hope in every context except as a standalone movie.

EDIT: One other innaccurate point. It was released with "A New Hope" added to it in 1981, after Empire Strikes Back, not before it. Of course, now I'm just picking hairs, but then again, that's pretty much what you were doing to my post to begin with, right?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.