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Secret CIA prisons

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So, look like Bush admitted the existence of secret CIA prisons.

First it was... secret CIA flights? NO ofcourse not.......... OK there were secret CIA flights transporting prisoners.
Then it was... secret CIA prisons???? How dare you!!!!!..................... OK the CIA has secret prisons.
Now its... BUT WE DO NOT TORTURE!!!!!!!!!........................ YEAH, RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Well if they TOLD us about them then it wouldn't be a secret now would it?
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Greencapt, you are a genius.


But on this note: why is it that certain people insist on wanting to punish America for the vaguest hints that we're possibly mistreating some scum-of-the-earth terrorists more than they want to prosecute the war itself? Is saving American lives not more important than investigating some hypothetical torture that in all likelyhood didn't happen, at least not as a rule? It's like how the lefties are more upset over Gitmo Bay and Abu Ghraib than they seem to be over the atrocities the terrorists commit.

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Originally posted by: greencapt
Well if they TOLD us about them then it wouldn't be a secret now would it?


I have a secret number. Now you know. Do you know the number? Still pretty secret isn't it?
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Greencapt, you are a genius.


But on this note: why is it that certain people insist on wanting to punish America for the vaguest hints that we're possibly mistreating some scum-of-the-earth terrorists more than they want to prosecute the war itself? Is saving American lives not more important than investigating some hypothetical torture that in all likelyhood didn't happen, at least not as a rule? It's like how the lefties are more upset over Gitmo Bay and Abu Ghraib than they seem to be over the atrocities the terrorists commit.


It gives a very wrong message when you want to spread democracy and justice and at the same time having secret prisons and denying your prisoners the justice system you want to spread.

But I'm not anti-america, I like a lot of things about America, some things I don't like. I support the war on Al-qaida in Afghanistan (or where-ever), I just don't support the war in Iraq.

EDIT: but do you actually aprove the torturing of terrorists (or anybody) for whatever purpose?
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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I don't know if you have ever actually lived in America, but they have far too many rights. So many it is too the point of harming the American society. If you can afford a good enough lawyer, and if you can get people on your side, you CAN get away with murder. You can get away with anything. If they have somebody that can give them some good information, that persons rights get in the way. Hypothetically the CIA could have a known terrorist in their hands, one who has information that could save the lives of a good number of people, but because of his rights there is no way to get it out of him. Of course they do things in secret, the average Joe can't stand the thought of violence outside of the context of video games, TV and movies. Violence is sometimes a necessary evil, it always has been, now we are just living in an overly sensitive age.

Quote from Arnie.d:
"It gives a very wrong message when you want to spread democracy and justice and at the same time having secret prisons and denying your prisoners the justice system you want to spread."

It is something very different. It isn't even comparible. It isn't the American justice system they are trying to spread, and even if it is, this doesn't even add up. I promise you a "secret prison" in America and a "secret prison" in Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, and so on, are very different things. The Americans don't just throw somebody into their secret prisons because somebody disagreed with the President. It is not quite as menacing as you seem to think it is, but more menacing than the Americans or Eurpeans can handle.


"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Originally posted by: C3PX
I don't know if you have ever actually lived in America, but they have far too many rights. So many it is too the point of harming the American society. If you can afford a good enough lawyer, and if you can get people on your side, you CAN get away with murder. You can get away with anything. If they have somebody that can give them some good information, that persons rights get in the way. Hypothetically the CIA could have a known terrorist in their hands, one who has information that could save the lives of a good number of people, but because of his rights there is no way to get it out of him. Of course they do things in secret, the average Joe can't stand the thought of violence outside of the context of video games, TV and movies. Violence is sometimes a necessary evil, it always has been, now we are just living in an overly sensitive age.
It is something very different. It isn't even comparible. It isn't the American justice system they are trying to spread, and even if it is, this doesn't even add up. I promise you a "secret prison" in America and a "secret prison" in Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, and so on, are very different things. The Americans don't just throw somebody into their secret prisons because somebody disagreed with the President. It is not quite as menacing as you seem to think it is, but more menacing than the Americans or Eurpeans can handle.

I've never been in America.
So what you're saying is, an american has to many rights, he can even get away with murder. Now, when a foreigner is captured abroad he doesn't even see a lawyer. It's like, haha american justice system doesn't apply to you. Double standards?
I wouldn't consider myself overly sensitive.
It is not quite as menacing as I think it is? Hmmmm, how do you know how menacing it really is then?

EDIT: I always hear things that come down to this: "when american lives can be saved it is okay to torture these terrorists"
I'm sure you can save a lot of american lives when you would torture american criminals, but then suddenly it is not okay to torture.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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Again, you're assuming that actual torture took place. From what I've heard, the CIA-run prisons and Guantanmo Bay have adequate facilities and are not mistreating the prisoners.

If there is anything that can be classified as actual torture, then no, I don't approve. But until then, mere rough treatment or unpleasant questioning techniques are not enough for me to object.

(Torture to me would be them actively inflicting bodily harm on the prisoners. Putting them under a hot lamp or depriving them of water for a few hours doesn't qualify in my mind. I'm not sure what the allegations of torture are saying has actually taken place, as everytime I hear it it is always vauge.)

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Again, you're assuming that actual torture took place. From what I've heard, the CIA-run prisons and Guantanmo Bay have adequate facilities and are not mistreating the prisoners.
Well there's no way to check, which makes it suspicious. Why can't people from the red cross visit? What are they hiding? It's far from normal what's going on there. Why can't these people be held in the U.S. itself and get a fair trial? Clearly the world is not allowed to know what's going on there, and I think that's for one reason only: things happen there that are way out of line.

If there is anything that can be classified as actual torture, then no, I don't approve. But until then, mere rough treatment or unpleasant questioning techniques are not enough for me to object.
(Torture to me would be them actively inflicting bodily harm on the prisoners. Putting them under a hot lamp or depriving them of water for a few hours doesn't qualify in my mind. I'm not sure what the allegations of torture are saying has actually taken place, as everytime I hear it it is always vauge.)

I don't think we really have a difference of opinion. But I only think you can treat someone like you described if he is convicted in a fair trial.

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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I'm all for tearing off the fingernails of known terrorists when we nab them. People (on both sides of the issue) are quick to mistake those assholes for the guy who runs the 7-11 whose brother-in-law was Bin Laden's camel salesman. That guy needs to be watched, but not tortured until we're extremely certain he's doing more than running the 7-11.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Not sure where I land on this. I'm a big believer in due process, however the rules of the game have changed. Very difficult to say and it's a slippery slope.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
I wouldn't consider myself overly sensitive.



Overly sensitive people rarely do.


And it isn't a matter of American or not American. Any one in the world can become an American citizen alot easier than they could become a citizen of a lot of countries. American is built on immigration. If you know anything at all about the American legal system, you will know that it has very little to do with race or the country you are from, and a whole lot to do with the size of your bank account. You can expect that any terrorist they capture, even if he is born and raised in America, brown, black, white, yellow, or purple, they are going to be treated the same way. The funny thing about it is the other side wouldn't hesitate to torture an American if they caught him, even if he has no information to give them. It isn't just American lives America is trying to protect. Why don't you find yourself a good history book and check out American track record over the last hunred or so years. There are some black spots, but I would love for you to tell me a country that doesn't.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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I believe the secrecy is the issue here. Obviously we all stand in different positions on what is acceptable and what is not.

The fact that the details of the flights and now the prisons have had to be forced out of the government demonstrates that they did not want anyone to know about them. Not just the locations of them, which could justifiably be kept secret from the general public, but that they exist at all. This leads to the question of why the government made that decision.

Keeping these people secretly detained without official charges or any possibility of defending themselves in a court denies them rights that we would all fight to keep for ourselves. It also prevents any objective scrutiny of the conditions in which the detainees are held and the practices that they are subjected to. If we seek to condemn countries that do these things, we cannot be seen to be doing them ourselves. I believe that this contradiction provides a basic reason why these activities have been kept secret. It casts doubt on the integrity and legality of the government's actions.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I believe that this contradiction provides a basic reason why these activities have been kept secret. It casts doubt on the integrity and legality of the government's actions.


The line given at the beginning of the actions in Afgahnistan, was that these individuals who we're not part of an army sponsored by a country, and thus defy the rules of engagement set out by the Geneva Conventions. Thus these individuals we're not going to get trials by the Judicial system of any government but we're to get Military Trials. Now that the specifics of these secret prisons are still hazy. The rules Bush set up in his latest speeches still do not go into how the actions of the CIA are being modified. So in essense, the CIA can still play as they have. To appease public opinion, the "known secret" captives are being added to the Gitmo inmates. This issue still hasn't changed in 5 years, those captured on terrorist war battlefields, do they get the same rights as everyone else or a modified version of justice more in relation to wartimes?
none
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Originally posted by: JediSage
Not sure where I land on this. I'm a big believer in due process, however the rules of the game have changed. Very difficult to say and it's a slippery slope.

Well, there's another issue that gets confused. I believe due process extends to citizens, but not to aliens. I don't think we should be "disappearing" our citizens, but as for aliens, screw 'em.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Originally posted by: none
The line given at the beginning of the actions in Afgahnistan, was that these individuals who we're not part of an army sponsored by a country, and thus defy the rules of engagement set out by the Geneva Conventions. Thus these individuals we're not going to get trials by the Judicial system of any government but we're to get Military Trials. Now that the specifics of these secret prisons are still hazy. The rules Bush set up in his latest speeches still do not go into how the actions of the CIA are being modified. So in essense, the CIA can still play as they have. To appease public opinion, the "known secret" captives are being added to the Gitmo inmates. This issue still hasn't changed in 5 years, those captured on terrorist war battlefields, do they get the same rights as everyone else or a modified version of justice more in relation to wartimes?
none


Quite right, none.

In my opinion, 5 years is far too long to decide how you are going to deal with the POWs. It has resulted in these detainees being imprisoned, some for the whole 5 years, without being told what specific charges they are being held for and when they are to be allowed to defend themselves against those charges in a court of law. If I were to be treated like this I would regard it as being unfair, especially if those forces holding me prisoner espoused fair treatment for all as being one of their main principles.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
Originally posted by: JediSage
Not sure where I land on this. I'm a big believer in due process, however the rules of the game have changed. Very difficult to say and it's a slippery slope.

Well, there's another issue that gets confused. I believe due process extends to citizens, but not to aliens. I don't think we should be "disappearing" our citizens, but as for aliens, screw 'em.


True. Where that gets tricky is, if a foreign national comes here legally and becomes a citizen, then turns out to be a suspected terrorist. That could get ugly.

Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
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Yeah, though once they're a citizen, they cease to be an alien. Anybody who took that oath and studied all that history deserves the protection of the law -- and to reap it's wrath when it's broken.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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"Overly sensitive people rarely do."

Nah, they're just de-sensitized to it.

"Well, there's another issue that gets confused. I believe due process extends to citizens, but not to aliens. I don't think we should be "disappearing" our citizens, but as for aliens, screw 'em."

Just to throw out this thought - they are "inalienable HUMAN rights", not American rights. The belief is that all people should have these rights. To not bestow them to others who come into our country is a bit of a contradiction, though I admit that in actual practice, it can cause many problems as well.

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All I know is that America has been detaining one of OUR people in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba for almost half a decade now - Hicks, for fighting alongside Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan - and have not even given him a trial. The Australian Government has been lobbying for years to have him brought to trial EVEN in America (preferably in Australia, but we have tried both to no avail). Yet they insist on keeping him in a legal and political grey area so that we don't know what's happening to him, and so that they can do whatever they want with him.

A criminal he *may* be, but he is OUR criminal, and it is for OUR judicial system (or at least A judicial system) to decide.
MTFBWY. Always.

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For the last time, I'm not sensitive. It's not that I'm sorry for the terrorist that's being tortured. There are other reasons why I think you shouldn't do it. One is you don't want to lower yourself to their standard. You should treat the prisoners the way you would want to be treated if you were a prisoner. The second thing is the US lied to it's allies, sneaking prisoners through Europe and all. The dutch government send soldiers to Afghanistan with the insurance of the US there were no secret prisons and transports in/through Europe and p.o.w. captured by dutch soldiers and handed over to the US would get a fair trial.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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Well, I'm not going to argue when I don't know the details. If there is torture going on, it definitely needs to stop; if it's being blown out of proportion, that needs to stop too. The intelligence people should be able to get the information they need without fear of lawsuits from terrorists. Hence Bush's decision to request clear and definite guidlines from Congress.

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First:
I seem to be in a minority in this thread, because if it saves lives to torture prisoners (within reason) for information, I consider that ample justification. Khalid Shiek-Mohammad (hope I spelled that all right) is obviously still alive if he was transferred to Guantanamo during the past week, which is a lot better than he deserves for being the "mastermind" behind 3000+ deaths on 9/11.

Second:
I am beginning to become annoyed by the idea that the US, in this particular conflict against terrorism, must be above using certain tactics. This is a double edge sword...
In a society where they use stoning, removal of hands and a great variety of methods we would consider barbaric, they see us as being weak for not using similar methods.
However, if we do resort to their methods, the US government, in the eyes of its own people, become no better than the terrorists, but we may actually cast fear into the hearts of our enemies.
As I said before, if it saves lives (particularly of our people and our allies), I can be more forgiving of the governments actions. I'm not saying break the rules of the Geneva Convention, I'm saying don't give into the fringe 10% of the population that are basically hippies wanting to be relevant again.

Third:
I know it is mearly an urban legend, but I continue to remember the story of Pershing when he was in charge of the Phillippines. The story about him executing muslim criminals with pigs-blood stained bullets and burying them in pits with the bodies of the same pigs.
Islam enstills fears upon its followers, just like any other religion. I believe it should be fair game to take advantage of those fears.
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You want to stop suicide terrorists by scaring them?!?!?
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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See, Starkiller is NOT an overly sensitive person. (and I am not saying you are Arnie, but a lot of Americans and much of the world is.) It isn't that Starkiller is saying to jump out of the closet and say boo to scare them. You have to understand the way your enemy works. Most people have not a clue about Islam. If you know anything about them, pigs are unclean animals. People buried next to a dead pig would be the ultimate dishonor for them. It was a good example. Arnie, you seem to think they go killing themselves in suicide bombings because they arn't right in the head. This seems to be the typical way of thinking of unreligious people regarding terrorism, which much of Europe and American is completely unreligious. They have motives and reasons for what they do. And you can bet they won't stop, not as long as one of them is left. The best way to beat them is to work at taking away their resorces (something detained captured terrorists can help us do) and/or to cut them off at the pass, before they are able to carry out their current operation (another thing detained terrorists can help us with).

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape