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Scruffy, Continuation of Iraq Debate...

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/Jump up my butt. Our Army -- and I'll throw a bone to the Marines, the Squids, and the Zoomies -- is the best trained and equipped in the world. No one "let" bin Laden escape; he used a well-established military and paramilitary along with prepared positions and civilian allies to escape. Capturing people like him isn't like serving a warrant on your slovenly wife-beating father; if it were that easy, maybe your buddy Clinton would've done it instead of desultory standoff strikes.

With regards to body armor, you go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want. There will always be another wonderful new Miracle Technology that we should've waited for besides executing a mission; that's the nature of technology, it's always advancing. If it weren't the IBA and the uparmored HMMWVs, it would've been the ACU, or the ACH, the XM8, the 6.8mm Remington, and on and on ... we could've been sitting here in 2008 arguing about how the last year in Iraq was a failure because the BBs weren't taken out of mothballs or the F-35s' avionics weren't debugged.

And if you do want to bitch and moan about armor, consider the wisdom of using infantry in a daytime urban raid without an armor cordon. I think there was a movie about that a few years back.

With regards to the Geneva Conventions, Law of War training takes place at all echelons, starting with Initial Entry Training. A few junior enlisted and NCOs decided to break those rules, and they've been punished. The only "horror" was the propaganda victory this handful of criminals handed to Baathist and Salafist terrorists. (And maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I'm not sure how to determine that someone is hors de combat if they were never legal combatants and commit violence against their jailers. I'm sure I could find it on paper if I looked hard enough.)

You know, I take that back. The multiple Al Qaeda attacks on Abu Ghraib that killed many prisoners were the real horrors there, clearly in violation of the Law of War. And the countless Iraqis killed by the Baathist government. But you don't see hundreds of J school grads waxing morose about that. White people sexually harassing brown people sells more papers than brown people killing brown people. They're expected to do it, I guess.

You are demonstrably wrong about a number of other things, including the criminal butchering of our language ("ect," indeed!), but questioning the competence of the Army earns you a lecture and derision. Repost whatever you want from Move On, Truth Out, Al Jazeera, Democrat Underground, I don't care ... but stand by for corrections./






Our 'best trained Army in the world' is having its ass handed to it in the worst way by the dozens every week. By a bunch of "brown" non-legal combatants.

Yes, you DO rush to war with the army you have, not the army you want, but when you don't NEED to rush to said war in the first place...

The 'Black Hawk Down' incident lasted one or two days. Iraq has been dragging on for years and will continue to drag on for years. And the troops are STILL bolting scrap metal to their Humvees. Consider that wisdom. Yes I will bitch and moan about armor. It keeps people alive.

"A few junior enlisted and NCO's" ? I'm not simply talking about those who actually attached the fake electrodes to the prisoners fingers, I'm talking about those higher ups who created the atmosphere which allowed these things to happen. First rule of leadership, EVERYTHING is your fault. And I notice you don't refute the fact that Bush NEVER apologized for this either. I assume that you feel there was no need for him to do so. Twist the Abu-Ghraib scandal however you want. In the eyes of the world, Bush, meaning us, condones and practices torture. Not "sexual harrassment". I think threatening a naked man with a snarling German shepard goes beyond simple sexual harrassment. And not only in Abu-Ghraib, but in Guantanamo, and god knows how many other secret 'black' sites around the world.
“We like to think that we are very particular, because we’ve done about a hundred movies now, and we strive to make our output pristine. So to work with a guy like Lucas is fabulous because he’s got his head in the same place, pristine.”
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Maybe you're only hearing the bad news about Iraq. Things like this are barely mentioned if at all.

WE read much in the US press about Iraq, our national politics and such...
but we never read about this. Attached is a letter sent to the Commanding Officer of the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment which has been serving in Iraq (its second deployment there) for the past year. It is now leaving to come home .....
the letter reads in its entirety as follows....

"In the Name of God the Compassionate and Merciful.
To the Courageous Men and Women of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, who have changed the city of Tall' Afar from a ghost town, in which terrorists spread death and destruction, to a secure city flourishing with life.
To the lion-hearts who liberated our city from the grasp of terrorists who were beheading men, women and children in the streets for many months. To those who spread smiles on the faces of our children, and gave us restored hope, through their personal sacrifice and brave fighting, and gave new life to the city after hopelessness darkened our days, and stole our confidence in our ability to reestablish our city.
Our city was the main base of operations for Abu Mousab Al Zarqawi. The city was completely held hostage in the hands of his henchmen. Our schools, governmental services, businesses and offices were closed. Our streets were silent, and no one dared to walk them. Our people were barricaded in their homes out of fear; death awaited them around every corner. Terrorists occupied and controlled the only hospital in the city.
Their savagery reached such a level that they stuffed the corpses of children with explosives and tossed them into the streets in order to kill grieving parents attempting to retrieve the bodies of their young.

This was the situation of our city until God prepared and delivered unto them the courageous soldiers of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, who liberated this city, ridding it of Zarqawi's followers after harsh fighting, killing many terrorists, and forcing the remaining butchers to flee the city like rats to the surrounding areas, where the bravery of other 3d ACR soldiers in Sinjar, Rabiah, Zumar and Avgani finally destroyed them.
I have met many soldiers of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment; they are not only courageous men and women, but avenging angels sent by The God Himself to fight the evil of terrorism.
The leaders of this Regiment; COL McMaster, COL Armstrong, LTC Hickey, LTC Gibson, and LTC Reilly embody courage, strength, vision and wisdom. Officers and soldiers alike bristle with the confidence and character of knights in a bygone era. The mission they have accomplished, by means of a unique military operation, stands among the finest military feats to date in Operation Iraqi Freedom, and truly deserves to be studied in military science. This military operation was clean, with little collateral damage, despite the ferocity of the enemy. With the skill and precision of surgeons they dealt with the terrorist cancers in the city without causing unnecessary damage. God bless this brave Regiment; God bless the families who dedicated these brave men and women. From the bottom of our hearts we thank the families. They have given us something we will never forget.
To the families of those who have given their holy blood for our land, we all bow to you in reverence and to the souls of your loved ones. Their sacrifice was not in vain. They are not dead, but alive, and their souls hovering around us every second of every minute. They will never be forgotten for giving their precious lives. They have sacrificed that which is most valuable. We see them in the smile of every child, and in every flower growing in this land.
Let America, their families, and the world be proud of their sacrifice for humanity and life. Finally, no matter how much I write or speak about this brave Regiment, I haven't the words to describe the courage of its officers and soldiers. I
pray to God to grant happiness and health to these legendary heroes and their brave families.

NAJIM ABDULLAH ABID AL-JIBOURI
Mayor of Tall 'Afar,
Ninewa, Iraq

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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If I didn't know better, I'd think that was written by a Republican.


Good things have happened in Iraq, no one is denying that. But ask yourself, does the good outweigh the bad? The quality of life for the average Iraqi has changed very little. Has it been worth thousands of American lives?

Pseudo-patriotic Republican hubris won't change a thing. The war in Iraq is a waste of life. It has not made us safer. It has not made the region more stable. It has not advanced the ancillary 'war on terror'. It has done nothing but prove to the world that we are inept, paranoid, belligerent, greedy bullies. The bumper stickers are right, Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to get you to vote for them.

“We like to think that we are very particular, because we’ve done about a hundred movies now, and we strive to make our output pristine. So to work with a guy like Lucas is fabulous because he’s got his head in the same place, pristine.”
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Um, no. The deposing of Hussein has opened up the region to a staggering number of new possiblities. I agree that the military leaderhsip needs to GET IT IN GEAR and take the insurgency out, but it's ridiculous to say we're not safer now. Most of the terrorists who would be plotting terror attacks on the homeland are now IN Iraq. Granted the idea is to get them in the grave, but America IS safer now. Iraq will be better off once they're able to defend themselves; nobody said this would be an easy fight. Equating Iraq with Vietnam is an insult to the soliders of both wars.

The only thing in the immediate future that will make us less safe is if Congress passess an excesively restrictive bill that hurts our efforts at interrogating captured terrorists. I'm not promoting torture at all, but rough interogation isn't torture; waterboarding and the like inflicts no permanent harm on them.

And I think ithe information gathering is a necessity. If we don't make them tell us what they're planning, people WILL die.

I'm telling you different and I'm not being voted for.

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The deposing of Hussein has opened up the region to a staggering number of new possiblities.

Such as?


take the insurgency out


Don't make me laugh. For every insurgent we kill, many more are inspired to join their ranks. It is a vicious cycle. There are small boys in Iraq right now that will be blowing up military convoys 10 years from now. The insurgency will never end as long as we are there.


Most of the terrorists who would be plotting terror attacks on the homeland are now IN Iraq.



Thanks for saving me the trouble of pointing that out once again.


Equating Iraq with Vietnam is an insult to the soliders of both wars.



WTF??? How can it be an insult to the veterans of Vietnam if everything is as rosy in Iraq as you would have me believe?


I'm not promoting torture at all, but rough interogation isn't torture; waterboarding and the like inflicts no permanent harm on them.



Wow. I'm almost positive that they would disagree with you.
“We like to think that we are very particular, because we’ve done about a hundred movies now, and we strive to make our output pristine. So to work with a guy like Lucas is fabulous because he’s got his head in the same place, pristine.”
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Um, no. The deposing of Hussein has opened up the region to a staggering number of new possiblities.

Especially for Al Qaeda.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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I doubt that the invasion of Iraq was motivated by concern for the well-being of its citizens or the security of the US's. Iraq had as much to do with terrorism as many other nations in the world. Far less than some. And Saddam Hussein was not a stand-out candidate for worst dictator in the world. There are many regimes in the world just as bad, if not worse. Iraq posed little to no threat to the USA at the time of invasion. This has been proven. The "intelligence" that was used in the USA and the UK to justify the invasion has been acknowledged, on both sides of the atlantic, to being exaggerated by those governments to mislead our nations into an illegal war of conquest.

The war in Iraq, as with any war, has made the world more dangerous.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!