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Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars — Page 6

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Possessed said:

Nah. That’s reasonable. Why have subgenres. BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO LIKES IRON MAIDEN WOULD TOTALLY LIKE MORBID ANGEL BECAUSE THEY ARE TOTALLY BOTH THE SAME TYPE OF MUSIC AM I RIGHT.

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yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

chyron8472 said:

How could you possibly think the Force is simply a way to have telepathy, telekinesis and ESP?

Ben Kenobi from Star Wars, Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back, and Luke from The Last Jedi specifically say that it is not, and Luke directly chastizes Rey for assuming that it is.

The question is not about how it is written. The way Lucas crafted the Force encompasses ESP, meditation, samurai training (trust your feelings), and be one with nature. But the things you can equate with magic are all standard ESP based science fiction tropes. And when you look at how the force is described - every living thing has an energy field. And not just living things, but rocks, ships, planets, etc. - what you get is something that you can find in science.

Isaac Asimov addressed this layering in Foundation’s Edge in 1982. It is based on the Gaia theory (for which he named the planet and can be found in detail here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis). Asimov had his characters propose to extend this to the galaxy. But in Star Wars this very thing already exists on a weak level (the Force in Star Wars is no where near what Asimov came up with at the end of Foundation’s Edge). Couple that with ESP (telepathy, telekenisis, teleportation, mental projection, conjuration, and more) and you have all the components of the Force and force powers. And while not widely accepted as solid science, these have long been staples of science fiction. You have an energy field created by everything in the universe and then a way for some to tap into that energy field and use the power to do things. Again, nothing new or unusual for science fiction.

I understand your point but when one engages with the life force of an object we cannot move spaceships, influence thoughts or communicate over hundreds of thousands of miles (as in hearing their voice in your head) in reality (even improbably). It would be impossible, which places it firmly within fantasy.

You can apply your ideas about “magic” being science with Gandalf to some extent if you try harder.

You are ignore a century of science fiction full of force like abilities. You are also using the hard science fiction parameters instead of the general science fiction parameters. And the thing you can’t do with Gandalf is say how he does it. There is zero explanation of his magic. Ben starts to explain the force and Yoda further explains it. Most magic is not explained in fantasy and is left mysterious and magical whereas in science fiction all such powers are explained in some way. When you tell how the magic works, it isn’t magic any more.

Is the “force” really an answer to how the Jedi get their power? I mean, it’s an answer to be sure but no different imo than saying it’s “magic”.

“The force is an energy that exists in and around all things.”

“Magic is a force that one taps into that exists since the beginning of time.”

Sounds pretty similar and one that you could mold any way you want.

How to describe gasoline in fantasy: a mysterious liquid that you put in your car and it makes your car go when you turn it on.

How to describe gasoline in science fiction: a liquid refined from crude oil which was originally swamp plants burried in the ground for a million years.

How Tolkien describes magic in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings: … he doesn’t.

How Lucas describes the force in ANH: The force is what give the Jedi his power. It is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.
How Lucas describes the force in TESB: Life creates it, makes it grow. It’s energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you…me…the tree…the rock…everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!

In fantasy, powers just are. In science fiction they must be given a reason. That reason may be tenuous and might be as simple as just saying a character is a telepath, but in fantasy while a given character might be given a reason they can use magic, the magic itself is left undefined. That reason vs. just being is one of the main differences between science fiction and fantasy and horror.

Good vs. evil is another. Fantasy tends to take the evil and personify it and make the good vs. evil an epic battle. Science fiction, if it deals with it, internalizes it. Good or evil is in each of us and we choose which path to follow. The force has a light side and dark side and it is up to the individual which path to take. There is no evil force horde. There is no light force to come and rescue you. Even Palpatine had to make that choice and he choose great evil and has made the practice of subverting others (not so much making the choice for them as persuading and coaxing). The nature of good vs. evil in Star Wars is exaggerated, but follows the real world where in fantasy it would have been expanded and the stormtroopers would have been an extension of the evil as the Orcs and goblins were in Tolkien. Instead they are pattered after (and named after) Nazi soldiers.

I think it is a tenuous set of differences. My point is the force is described in very vague and wide sweeping terms. It could be virtually anything…just like magic.

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Creox said:

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

chyron8472 said:

How could you possibly think the Force is simply a way to have telepathy, telekinesis and ESP?

Ben Kenobi from Star Wars, Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back, and Luke from The Last Jedi specifically say that it is not, and Luke directly chastizes Rey for assuming that it is.

The question is not about how it is written. The way Lucas crafted the Force encompasses ESP, meditation, samurai training (trust your feelings), and be one with nature. But the things you can equate with magic are all standard ESP based science fiction tropes. And when you look at how the force is described - every living thing has an energy field. And not just living things, but rocks, ships, planets, etc. - what you get is something that you can find in science.

Isaac Asimov addressed this layering in Foundation’s Edge in 1982. It is based on the Gaia theory (for which he named the planet and can be found in detail here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis). Asimov had his characters propose to extend this to the galaxy. But in Star Wars this very thing already exists on a weak level (the Force in Star Wars is no where near what Asimov came up with at the end of Foundation’s Edge). Couple that with ESP (telepathy, telekenisis, teleportation, mental projection, conjuration, and more) and you have all the components of the Force and force powers. And while not widely accepted as solid science, these have long been staples of science fiction. You have an energy field created by everything in the universe and then a way for some to tap into that energy field and use the power to do things. Again, nothing new or unusual for science fiction.

I understand your point but when one engages with the life force of an object we cannot move spaceships, influence thoughts or communicate over hundreds of thousands of miles (as in hearing their voice in your head) in reality (even improbably). It would be impossible, which places it firmly within fantasy.

You can apply your ideas about “magic” being science with Gandalf to some extent if you try harder.

You are ignore a century of science fiction full of force like abilities. You are also using the hard science fiction parameters instead of the general science fiction parameters. And the thing you can’t do with Gandalf is say how he does it. There is zero explanation of his magic. Ben starts to explain the force and Yoda further explains it. Most magic is not explained in fantasy and is left mysterious and magical whereas in science fiction all such powers are explained in some way. When you tell how the magic works, it isn’t magic any more.

Is the “force” really an answer to how the Jedi get their power? I mean, it’s an answer to be sure but no different imo than saying it’s “magic”.

“The force is an energy that exists in and around all things.”

“Magic is a force that one taps into that exists since the beginning of time.”

Sounds pretty similar and one that you could mold any way you want.

How to describe gasoline in fantasy: a mysterious liquid that you put in your car and it makes your car go when you turn it on.

How to describe gasoline in science fiction: a liquid refined from crude oil which was originally swamp plants burried in the ground for a million years.

How Tolkien describes magic in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings: … he doesn’t.

How Lucas describes the force in ANH: The force is what give the Jedi his power. It is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.
How Lucas describes the force in TESB: Life creates it, makes it grow. It’s energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you…me…the tree…the rock…everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!

In fantasy, powers just are. In science fiction they must be given a reason. That reason may be tenuous and might be as simple as just saying a character is a telepath, but in fantasy while a given character might be given a reason they can use magic, the magic itself is left undefined. That reason vs. just being is one of the main differences between science fiction and fantasy and horror.

Good vs. evil is another. Fantasy tends to take the evil and personify it and make the good vs. evil an epic battle. Science fiction, if it deals with it, internalizes it. Good or evil is in each of us and we choose which path to follow. The force has a light side and dark side and it is up to the individual which path to take. There is no evil force horde. There is no light force to come and rescue you. Even Palpatine had to make that choice and he choose great evil and has made the practice of subverting others (not so much making the choice for them as persuading and coaxing). The nature of good vs. evil in Star Wars is exaggerated, but follows the real world where in fantasy it would have been expanded and the stormtroopers would have been an extension of the evil as the Orcs and goblins were in Tolkien. Instead they are pattered after (and named after) Nazi soldiers.

I think it is a tenuous set of differences. My point is the force is described in very vague and wide sweeping terms. It could be virtually anything…just like magic.

My point was that science fiction will describe things, even vauguely where fantasy doesn’t. Fantasy might go into detail about how to cast a spell, but not about how the magic actually works. Space Opera sometimes gives you vaugue descriptions that are just enough to make it seem plausible. Compare Ben’s description of the force to Han’s description of hyperspace. Very similar. But Star Wars never describes what hyperspace is with words, they do show it, something they can’t do for the force.

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yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

chyron8472 said:

How could you possibly think the Force is simply a way to have telepathy, telekinesis and ESP?

Ben Kenobi from Star Wars, Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back, and Luke from The Last Jedi specifically say that it is not, and Luke directly chastizes Rey for assuming that it is.

The question is not about how it is written. The way Lucas crafted the Force encompasses ESP, meditation, samurai training (trust your feelings), and be one with nature. But the things you can equate with magic are all standard ESP based science fiction tropes. And when you look at how the force is described - every living thing has an energy field. And not just living things, but rocks, ships, planets, etc. - what you get is something that you can find in science.

Isaac Asimov addressed this layering in Foundation’s Edge in 1982. It is based on the Gaia theory (for which he named the planet and can be found in detail here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis). Asimov had his characters propose to extend this to the galaxy. But in Star Wars this very thing already exists on a weak level (the Force in Star Wars is no where near what Asimov came up with at the end of Foundation’s Edge). Couple that with ESP (telepathy, telekenisis, teleportation, mental projection, conjuration, and more) and you have all the components of the Force and force powers. And while not widely accepted as solid science, these have long been staples of science fiction. You have an energy field created by everything in the universe and then a way for some to tap into that energy field and use the power to do things. Again, nothing new or unusual for science fiction.

I understand your point but when one engages with the life force of an object we cannot move spaceships, influence thoughts or communicate over hundreds of thousands of miles (as in hearing their voice in your head) in reality (even improbably). It would be impossible, which places it firmly within fantasy.

You can apply your ideas about “magic” being science with Gandalf to some extent if you try harder.

You are ignore a century of science fiction full of force like abilities. You are also using the hard science fiction parameters instead of the general science fiction parameters. And the thing you can’t do with Gandalf is say how he does it. There is zero explanation of his magic. Ben starts to explain the force and Yoda further explains it. Most magic is not explained in fantasy and is left mysterious and magical whereas in science fiction all such powers are explained in some way. When you tell how the magic works, it isn’t magic any more.

Is the “force” really an answer to how the Jedi get their power? I mean, it’s an answer to be sure but no different imo than saying it’s “magic”.

“The force is an energy that exists in and around all things.”

“Magic is a force that one taps into that exists since the beginning of time.”

Sounds pretty similar and one that you could mold any way you want.

How to describe gasoline in fantasy: a mysterious liquid that you put in your car and it makes your car go when you turn it on.

How to describe gasoline in science fiction: a liquid refined from crude oil which was originally swamp plants burried in the ground for a million years.

How Tolkien describes magic in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings: … he doesn’t.

How Lucas describes the force in ANH: The force is what give the Jedi his power. It is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.
How Lucas describes the force in TESB: Life creates it, makes it grow. It’s energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you…me…the tree…the rock…everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!

In fantasy, powers just are. In science fiction they must be given a reason. That reason may be tenuous and might be as simple as just saying a character is a telepath, but in fantasy while a given character might be given a reason they can use magic, the magic itself is left undefined. That reason vs. just being is one of the main differences between science fiction and fantasy and horror.

Good vs. evil is another. Fantasy tends to take the evil and personify it and make the good vs. evil an epic battle. Science fiction, if it deals with it, internalizes it. Good or evil is in each of us and we choose which path to follow. The force has a light side and dark side and it is up to the individual which path to take. There is no evil force horde. There is no light force to come and rescue you. Even Palpatine had to make that choice and he choose great evil and has made the practice of subverting others (not so much making the choice for them as persuading and coaxing). The nature of good vs. evil in Star Wars is exaggerated, but follows the real world where in fantasy it would have been expanded and the stormtroopers would have been an extension of the evil as the Orcs and goblins were in Tolkien. Instead they are pattered after (and named after) Nazi soldiers.

I think it is a tenuous set of differences. My point is the force is described in very vague and wide sweeping terms. It could be virtually anything…just like magic.

My point was that science fiction will describe things, even vauguely where fantasy doesn’t. Fantasy might go into detail about how to cast a spell, but not about how the magic actually works. Space Opera sometimes gives you vaugue descriptions that are just enough to make it seem plausible. Compare Ben’s description of the force to Han’s description of hyperspace. Very similar. But Star Wars never describes what hyperspace is with words, they do show it, something they can’t do for the force.

I understood your position. I just don’t subscribe to it completely.

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I had been dragging my heels about watching A Wrinkle In Time because I’ve never been interested in the book and the trailer didn’t look all that great. Well, it was watchable but I quickly saw that this was what some are claiming Star Wars is - a cross over between SF and fantasy. This tried to be scientific, but the fantasy was overriding. Right down to the formless great evil. It felt like fantasy with a science veneer. So it only solidified my feeling the Star Wars is firmly science fiction. A Wrinkle In Time is science fantasy.

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screams in the void said:

how can science and fantasy be compatible though ? one is real and demands demonstrable and empirical evidence and the other is pure fiction .

It really is an oxymoron in many ways, but when you have a story that pretends at science and pretends at fantasy, you have what I consider the point in the middle.

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Yeah star wars definitely only pretends to be fantasy. Its actually firmly grounded in realism.

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Possessed said:

Yeah star wars definitely only pretends to be fantasy. Its actually firmly grounded in realism.

Yeah, sarcasm noted.

But seriously. If your definition of science fiction is “firmly grounded in realism” then you seriously need to do some reading of the science fiction classics. I seriously don’t think a lot of people have enough understanding of just how much science fiction that is not firmly grounded in realism has been produced over the years. Nothing that has faster than light travel is and none of that is fantasy. Purists like Clarke would put it there, but he and all other hard SF writers are in denial about their place in the broad science fiction genre.

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yep. factually and objectively correct. they’re centrists after all.

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Collipso said:

possessed?

Haiii.

Star trek is science fiction. Star wars is fantasy. Game Night is comedy. The exorcist is horror. Deep thr… Nah you get the point. Just kidding I don’t have a point.

I’m here all week.

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yotsuya said:

I had been dragging my heels about watching A Wrinkle In Time because I’ve never been interested in the book and the trailer didn’t look all that great. Well, it was watchable but I quickly saw that this was what some are claiming Star Wars is - a cross over between SF and fantasy. This tried to be scientific, but the fantasy was overriding. Right down to the formless great evil. It felt like fantasy with a science veneer. So it only solidified my feeling the Star Wars is firmly science fiction. A Wrinkle In Time is science fantasy.

“Formless great evil”

alt text

Hhmm…

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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Possessed said:

Collipso said:

possessed?

Haiii.

Star trek is science fiction. Star wars is fantasy. Game Night is comedy. The exorcist is horror. Deep thr… Nah you get the point. Just kidding I don’t have a point.

I’m here all week.

And this is why I bring up Gary Mitchell, Q, Trelane, Apollo, Plato’s Stepchildren, Vulcan’s, Betazoids, Deltans, Star Trek V, and so many others. If you want to claim that the Force is magic, you have to account for all the exact same activities (and often stronger and more powerful and even more fantastic) in Star Trek. Star Trek and Star Wars are in the exact same genre. Star Trek has plenty of stories inspired by myths and legends. It is Horatio Hornlower in space. Wagon Train to the stars. Inspired by Forbidden Planet. Star Trek had less science fiction behind it when it started that Star Wars did. Both brought on science fiction writers (many in Star Trek and Leigh Brackett for TESB, but also Alan Dean Foster for the novelization and a sequel idea and Brian Daly and L. Neil Smith for the first EU/Legends novels). So Star Wars is steeped in Science Fiction, from its inspirations to those who contributed to it.

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 (Edited)

Again, I think you want Star Wars to be science fiction and not fantasy, and so you find excuses to fit it into that box. Confirmation bias, basically.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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chyron8472 said:

Again, I think you want Star Wars to be science fiction and not fantasy, and so you find excuses to fit it into that box.

That’s a bingo.

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Mocata said:

chyron8472 said:

Again, I think you want Star Wars to be science fiction and not fantasy, and so you find excuses to fit it into that box.

That’s a bingo.

I don’t recall Bingowings ever advocating that view.

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 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

Possessed said:

Collipso said:

possessed?

Haiii.

Star trek is science fiction. Star wars is fantasy. Game Night is comedy. The exorcist is horror. Deep thr… Nah you get the point. Just kidding I don’t have a point.

I’m here all week.

And this is why I bring up Gary Mitchell, Q, Trelane, Apollo, Plato’s Stepchildren, Vulcan’s, Betazoids, Deltans, Star Trek V, and so many others. If you want to claim that the Force is magic, you have to account for all the exact same activities (and often stronger and more powerful and even more fantastic) in Star Trek. Star Trek and Star Wars are in the exact same genre. Star Trek has plenty of stories inspired by myths and legends. It is Horatio Hornlower in space. Wagon Train to the stars. Inspired by Forbidden Planet. Star Trek had less science fiction behind it when it started that Star Wars did. Both brought on science fiction writers (many in Star Trek and Leigh Brackett for TESB, but also Alan Dean Foster for the novelization and a sequel idea and Brian Daly and L. Neil Smith for the first EU/Legends novels). So Star Wars is steeped in Science Fiction, from its inspirations to those who contributed to it.

I just want you to know I didn’t read this post. This entire conversation is silly.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Possessed said:

This entire conversation is silly.

+10

And before I officially bow out from this thread for all time, I thought I’d share this article, which I agree with 100.100%:

Is it Science Fiction or Science Fantasy?

Well, according to that, everything with faster than light travel, transporters, teleporters, real time interstellar communication, etc. are all science fantasy.

That does not fit the historical definition where there is no such thing as science fantasy. In English, when you put two words together, the first describes the second. When you use science fantasy, that means it is fantasy with some science. The describes stories that are mostly fantasy. Science fiction is science based fiction. It falls into soft science and hard science. Hard means only what is possible with proven scientific knowledge. Soft means what is possible given hypothetical scientific breakthroughs and has always included ESP and other mental powers. So the inclusion of the force in Star Wars does not make it science fantasy. It fits within the soft science side of science fiction. So does its basis in Campbell’s theories. The fantasy side of speculative fiction has always left science out of the picture and focused on magic and mysticism, usually in a historical setting.

Probably the best comparison lies in two of the oldest of the two sides. Frankenstein and Dracula. Frankenstein is science fiction because Dr. Frankenstein uses science based principles to bring dead body parts to life while in Dracula there is no science at all, just a curse. We know today that the science in Frankenstein is bogus, but that does not change the genre. It relegates it to soft science fiction, not hard (where Around the World in 80 Days could be considered hard because such a voyage was possible when the book what published). Most of Jules Verne’s and H.G. Wells’ works are soft science fiction, even when they were published because most of it was not possible based on proven science.

One of the keys to which side it lies on is an examination of whether the story is based on what is possible or fantastical. How does the Emperor die? He is thrown down a shaft. He is not undone by some magic talisman, he is killed by something that would kill any normal human being. Yes, he throws a big force tantrum on the way down, but it doesn’t save him. And very shortly after the entire Death Star is blown apart. The Force is Star Wars is its moral compass. The rebels win the day in ROTJ because Han blows up the shield generator and Lando and Wedge blow up the Death Star while Luke has his epic duel with Vader and the Emperor. It is a duel, no magic involved. What saves the day is not even the force, but Luke’s decision to not kill his father and to not give in to the dark side of the force. The Force is the internal barometer for good and evil. It does not conform to any fantasy form of magic but does match a great many forms of advanced mental powers included in generations of science fiction. In The Lord of the Rings, the good side wins when the ring that gives Sauron his power and life is destroyed. He is not directly harmed. The magic that gave him life is destroyed destroying him. The difference between that and Star Wars is pretty clear.

And it isn’t me wanting Star Wars to be science fiction. It is the fact that I have spent a lot of time reading and studying the science fiction and fantasy genres. The difference is pretty clear and those that try to straddle the border lean one way or the other. Star Wars, while it does include some mystical elements and Jedi using the Force, has a story that remains grounded in reality. You can remove the use of the Force and it might remove some charm of the stories, but you don’t have to rewrite the stories to get the same conclusion. The stories as they play out are based in the real world. Palpatine takes over by political trickery. He rules the same way. He is killed because his right hand man throws him off a balcony. Luke destroys the Death Star because he trusts his instincts over using the targeting computer (which didn’t help Red Leader to hit the target). Lucas established rules for how things work and they are based in science. Like many science fiction worlds, some of them are a bit sketchy when you really examine them, but hyperspace, energy weapons, lightsabers, droids, etc. are all done exactly how science fiction handles those things. Is everything explained in detail? No. Even Asimov did not bore his readers with the details of his made up ideas. Lucas is not a scientist himself and he called what he did space fantasy, but when you look at what he did, he was trying to evoke myths and legends and fairy tales with a science fiction setting. He provided just enough enchantment to snare the audience without straying beyond what science fiction typically allowed.