Sansweet's leaving Lucasfilm.... — Page 3

Sacrificing art for money, what a waste.

JediTray said:

The answer to that is $$$ NO $$$.

WHY NO FLY?

generalfrevious wrote:

The destruction of the OOT is still going on and he did nothing to stop it. Don't people at Lucasfilm realize these are not just a certain version of a movie that is being suppressed, it's the essence of everything that is at stake?

But isn't it safe to say that Lucasfilm is also the organization which has done the most (#s) to preserve the original version. The GOUT copies sold in stores far out number the bootlegs and fan preservation copies ever created.

According to (see below) at least: 220,578 copies

http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/1977/0STRW-DVD.php

Besides the quality issue, how else did the GOUT not help people remember the essence of the originals?

zombie84 said: wouldn't mind a restored original version, but ultimately doesn't care

This is why these guys are all such pissers, they don't care. I wouldn't expect him to put his job on the line over this. I wouldn't expect the average person to care at all. But these are major Star Wars fans yet somehow they just don't care, and Sansweet is just the most extreme and public example. He has a list that looks like this:

Original movies-Don't care

All variations of kids' Boss Nass underpants-Do care

How do you even argue with this mindset, it's like a different language.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

none said:

Besides the quality issue, how else did the GOUT not help people remember the essence of the originals?

The way in which he issued the GOUT was a clever ploy to "prove" how poor the original one was.  Now, most people walking the street believe Lucas' BS, based on the GOUT, and are thankful that he rescued it with the SE.

Plus, he relaesed the GOUT as a bonus feature (the real shame of the GOUT), and did not even take the 5 minutes to make the DVDs anamorphic. Lucas treated the originals like second-class citizens. It is an appalling and unfair treatment to these three films. The very thing that made him an undeserving billionaire and he throws it out like a used condom. What a fucking monster.

Gosh I can understand some of the bitterness in here, but some of you go way nuts overboard with the hyperbole, wishing ill on folks who don't do what you want. Have some civility, geez.

Sevb32 said:

Gosh I can understand some of the bitterness in here, but some of you go way nuts overboard with the hyperbole, wishing ill on folks who don't do what you want. Have some civility, geez.

I just he was a monster, not that he should die a horrible death.

none said:

But isn't it safe to say that Lucasfilm is also the organization which has done the most (#s) to preserve the original version. The GOUT copies sold in stores far out number the bootlegs and fan preservation copies ever created.

 If I stole all the food from an orphanage, put armed guards to keep other people from giving them food, and then give the children back a few handfuls of stale bread, I'm not exactly an altruist, no matter the #s.

Besides the quality issue, how else did the GOUT not help people remember the essence of the originals?

Taking some of the best looking movies of all time, with then cutting edge effects that still look amazing,  and making them look like poop is fairly damaging to their essence.

generalfrevious said:

Sansweet was complicit in the drowning of the OOT.

 Complicit?

I know he was a paid schill and mouthpiece for Lucas, but 'complicit?'

It's not as if ANYTHING HE COULD HAVE DONE would have changed the outcome. At most he could have stood up and lost his job over it, but at no point did he have any real say. 

Baronlando wrote:

This is why these guys are all such pissers, they don't care.

I think they do care (in a different way), but care enough to spend 10 million on clean up work, and 10 million for production fees, so that the public who has already bought several versions in the last 5 years can have a slightly upgraded copy, you can believe that's not caring.

Plus also realize that GL and some of the people at LFL have been there since the beginning. There was no 'awakening' for them. No magical spark, no 'Wow that was life altering.' SW has always been an undergoing process which is continuing to this day. Each development funds the next advancement.

How do you even argue with this mindset, it's like a different language.

It's a disagreement. Make your points, challenge where they are hypocritical. And if you want them preserved, figure out a way to help that cause.

Puggo wrote:

The way in which he issued the GOUT was a clever ploy to "prove" how poor the original one was. Now, most people walking the street believe Lucas' BS, based on the GOUT, and are thankful that he rescued it with the SE.

Don't have any stats to say one way or the other if the average street walker was the convincing opinion which proved that GOUT was worth the LFL time, (but i'll agree they do fund it) and i'll give a suggestion if you run into one. I'll say it again, besides quality. If you are going to say a movie is poorer because it only exists on laserdisc not DVD or blu-ray, that's fine, but it's not a point to hang your hat on. I can appreciate a piece of media on 240x160 if I have to. The 'Han shot first' debate is one of the essences of the OT, and there it was 220,00+ times from LFL. For your people walking the street, a simple side by side comparison of one or two scenes shows how the colors have differed once released on DVD. (the anamorphic issue for me goes close to the quality issue. many people are used to watching pan-scan versions of movies, filled with commercials) The average citizen can be shown proof of the differences, if they appreciate the change is up to them. That's why savestarwars.com will be successful in swaying hearts and minds.

Boost wrote:

If I stole all the food from an orphanage, put armed guards to keep other people from giving them food, and then give the children back a few handfuls of stale bread, I'm not exactly an altruist, no matter the #s.

Although films are a part of a healthy cultural diet and are food for thought, they're not food for living. Agree the GOUT wasn't done out of altruism.

Being able to keep a lock on all the food is what society currently allows to continue under the legality of copyright laws. I'm all for an amendment which allows the age of orphaned works to return to 14 years so that children's children can get re-aquainted with lost works.

Taking some of the best looking movies of all time, with then cutting edge effects that still look amazing, and making them look like poop is fairly damaging to their essence.

There's a good point. (not the poop part that's just crap)  The SE fans will counter with 'the computer effects allow for more active camera angles.' And you all will have to counter with the value of the original effects, like the model differences between X-Wings which was mostly lost by Knoll and friends, or ????

This is really not that complicated. They don't have to split the atom to do this. They will not lose money on it. They will not need much effort to do it. They do it all the time, I just came from Burbank where every day the labs are churning out this exact work for tons of movies you've never heard of. It's not a big deal. Sansweet and the junior sansweets are painting it as some unreasonable thing when it's just not.

Baronlando said:

This is really not that complicated. They don't have to split the atom to do this. They will not lose money on it. They will not need much effort to do it. They do it all the time, I just came from Burbank where every day the labs are churning out this exact work for tons of movies you've never heard of. It's not a big deal. Sansweet and the junior sansweets are painting it as some unreasonable thing when it's just not.

Exactly.

I'd rather watch "Paths of Glory" in HD if I am able rather than SD because although it is a good film in any resolution it becomes a greater film when the subtleties of detail can be appreciated in their original form.

If a classic B&W Kubrick movie from 1957 can get the "treatment" there is zero excuse for a classic flick from 1977 not  to receive it other than stubbornness and feigning faux scarceness.

Honestly, it just wears what little respect I had for Lucasfilm down to zilch knowing that they just don't care enough to preserve and release the OT in unaltered and highest quality possible. It's a pity, because Lucas was once my inspiration for making my own movies, but I end up lampooning him.

Anyway, I moved on and so has my wallet.

TheBoost said:

generalfrevious said:

Sansweet was complicit in the drowning of the OOT.

 Complicit?

I know he was a paid schill and mouthpiece for Lucas, but 'complicit?'

It's not as if ANYTHING HE COULD HAVE DONE would have changed the outcome. At most he could have stood up and lost his job over it, but at no point did he have any real say. 

The philosopher Burke once said that doing nothing was the greatest crime. Hence, Sansweet was complicit in suppressing the OOT when he could have stood up to Lucas, and tell him that what he was doing was wrong. If he was purged from LFL for standing up against him, he could have protested Lucas's despicable actions through the media. But he sat on his ass and said nothing.

Wow.  I wasn't aware that that many prostitutes had discerning opinions about Star Wars.

Well as generalfrevious (he's a big fan of the SWSWInsider) has pointed out, the entire SW fanbase has been on their backs taking it from 'the creator', who has done nothing, making us all complicit in the worst atrocity since the holocaust.  You obviously haven't been keeping up with the SWSWInsider. (Street Walker's Star Wars Insider)

Star Wars' creation and original release defined a generation, redefined movie making, redefined the movie going experience, redefined the place Science Fiction had in all of the above (Ridley Scott's Alien did as well).  The Original Star Wars Trilogy in itself was, and still is to those of us who got to experience it and for those of us who have been introduced to it afterward, a historical landmark of genuine proportion.

The actors that gave the story a face, Han shooting first, color timing, musical score, and ground breaking effects process's created specifically for telling this story are to this day still talked about even by other directors who saw the same thing we did.  It moved the Earth.

To make it disappear just because one can.....is like ruining the "Legend of Sleepy Hollow" or the "Loch Ness Monster"..... it ruins the mystery.

none said:

Wow.  I wasn't aware that that many prostitutes had discerning opinions about Star Wars.

Well as generalfrevious (he's a big fan of the SWSWInsider) has pointed out, the entire SW fanbase has been on their backs taking it from 'the creator', who has done nothing, making us all complicit in the worst atrocity since the holocaust.  You obviously haven't been keeping up with the SWSWInsider. (Street Walker's Star Wars Insider)

First, it's the employees of LFL that are taking it from GL. Second, I believe it is a massive atrocity to have the OOT destroyed, because they transcend the medium of film. Third, I never said members of this site were complicit in the OOT destruction, I explicitly meant Sansweet himself, not any other fan of SW.

None, I'm a bit confused at some of your arguments here. Some are unclear, but it seems like you also haven't considered some things.

none said:

Baronlando wrote:

This is why these guys are all such pissers, they don't care.

I think they do care (in a different way), but care enough to spend 10 million on clean up work, and 10 million for production fees, so that the public who has already bought several versions in the last 5 years can have a slightly upgraded copy, you can believe that's not caring.

I'm not sure what you are arguing here--that their (in)action is actually understanable? As Baronlando said, doing to Star Wars what gets done to every other film in the world is not a big deal. Yeah, a couple million in work, another few million in production fees. You know how much it costs to move a new LEGO set, or a Jar Jar Binks underwear package? Similar logistical costs. This is because it is a product that will be consumed by hundreds of thousands, if not million, of consumers. We are dealing with big numbers. Let's put this into perspective. The 2004 set sold $100 million in sales...in its first day of release. It's first day. Not its first week, or first year. This is the kind of return you get. So, the numbers are big, and the sales are proportional. Thats what any Star Wars product is like, because there are 100,000 moms in the world buying their four-year-old a pack of Jar Jar underwear. Its routine for the people organizing this stuff. That's what running the merchandising sector of a huge corporate conglomerate for the biggest franchise in history is like.

This is a company that's in Fortune 500, if I am not mistaken. It runs itself to a large degree because of the bureacracy and organization, and it brings in billions of dollars of income annually, most of it from the Star Wars brand name.

Also, case in point: Troll 2 is on Blu Ray. Troll 2. On Blu Ray. Digital Bits said it was the biggest waste of technology and resources they've seen. But its there, it was done.

But this is all a bit of a misnomer. Lucasfilm would love to release the films. This is a fact, that they've been trying to do this for years. The reasons why are obvious. One, probably some of the LFL corporate guys actually want to see the films themselves. But two, its the biggest property they have. It will sell the most amount of copies. Far from being "not worth it"--from a business perspective it's actually the biggest, most lucrative thing they have.

But what it comes down to is this. Lucas actually isn't involved with the day-to-day operations of LFL. It sort of runs itself without him. But when it comes to this issue, he is the gatekeeper. And he said no up until the GOUT. Now, some people say Lucas let the GOUT out for $$, so that people bought the shit version and then they would buy the good version later. Maybe that's right, but whatever the case it's irrelevant. The point is that Lucas has the ultimate say in when, if and how the OOT is released, so the discussion here ultimately doesn't involve Lucasfilm as a corporate entity. Which is why I won't lynch Steve Sansweet on this aspect--its ultimately out of his hands. I take issue with his promotion and other things he has expressed with it, but ultimately this is not really about Lucasfilm but Lucas himself.

 

Plus also realize that GL and some of the people at LFL have been there since the beginning. There was no 'awakening' for them. No magical spark, no 'Wow that was life altering.' SW has always been an undergoing process which is continuing to this day. Each development funds the next advancement.

This is not true as far as I can tell.

Most of Lucasfilm have not been there from the beginning. In fact, I don't believe anyone deeply involved in the company remains from the early days, save for Lucy Wilson and Bunny Alsup, whom I believe are Lucas' personal assistants now and do some other work like editing books. The architects of Lucasfilm were people like Charles Lippincott, Charles Webber and other associates like Gary Kurtz and Marcia Lucas, but I don't think anyone from the 80s is still there except Ben Burtt, and even a lot of the 80s regime wasn't there when it started in the mid and late 70s (such as president Webber).

The people who run Lucasfilm are corporate guys. They were hired by Lucasfilm, probably not that long ago, because of their experience in big business. Upper management at these places is pretty revolving door. This is not a mom and pop shop, this is a gigantic worldwide corporate conglomerate, with tons of subsidiaries. The people that run it and are deeply involved have to be the best business dealers in the world, because the company is so big it kind of demands it. It's exactly like Disney. What makes--or maybe made--Disney so great was that it was this huge corporate machine, but through marketing and propaganda, I guess you could say, they gave the impression that this was ol' Uncle Walts tiny home business where he painted the toys himself. But it was a huge, massive, pretty impersonal business that he had very little part of when it got so big at the end of his life.

Case in point, Jim Ward left as VP, but he had only been there since the 1990s I believe, so at least one other guy came before him. These are businessmen, not Lucas' buddies from college. Most of them are much younger than Lucas and--actually--they did have a "wow" moment. They ought to have been in school when Star Wars came out and were probably blown away like everyone else. In fact, I'm sure an increasing proportion of Lucasfilm wasn't alive in 1977, because there are plenty of people working for the company who are 33 years old or younger.

 

Puggo wrote:

The way in which he issued the GOUT was a clever ploy to "prove" how poor the original one was. Now, most people walking the street believe Lucas' BS, based on the GOUT, and are thankful that he rescued it with the SE.

Don't have any stats to say one way or the other if the average street walker was the convincing opinion which proved that GOUT was worth the LFL time, (but i'll agree they do fund it) and i'll give a suggestion if you run into one. I'll say it again, besides quality. If you are going to say a movie is poorer because it only exists on laserdisc not DVD or blu-ray, that's fine, but it's not a point to hang your hat on. I can appreciate a piece of media on 240x160 if I have to.

Well, I will give Puggo credit here because what he is referencing is Lucas' comments made at the time of the release, which basically framed it in terms of a competetion to be decided by sales. But with the bad quality of the GOUT, many serious fans who would have bought the release stayed away, so its a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of the argument Lucas used.

However, increasingly people's standards have changed because of HD and DVD. People don't watch VHS anymore. I do, maybe you do, but if I give you two choices, a really good movie on VHS and the same version of the movie on Blu Ray you will choose the Blu Ray and never get around to the VHS. Because to a lot of people, they prefer the OOT, but if the SE is on Blu Ray and the OOT is on VHS, they will take the SE Blu Ray instead, because even though it's not their preferred cut, it's still the same basic movie and the image and sound quality difference is so big that it makes up for any shortcomings. Also, there is a stigma with older technology. People simply won't watch shitty looking old transfers of Laserdisc and VHS. The standards have changed. And it also damages the integrity of the OOT--people who do watch the GOUT can't help noticing how bad the quality is. Either they think its because the movie is simply old and that's how it is supposed to look, or it lessens their enjoyment because they can't see it in the standard that they are used to and one that shows off the film in the best available way. I would think this is a pretty easy point to see.

xhonzi said:

generalfrevious said:

Sevb32 said:

Gosh I can understand some of the bitterness in here, but some of you go way nuts overboard with the hyperbole, wishing ill on folks who don't do what you want. Have some civility, geez.

I just [said] he was a monster, not that he should die a horrible death.

But you were thinking it.  ;)

No I wasn't. Dont put thoughts into my head

winky fail

Just to harp on this a little more, (the idea that a potential blu 77-83 trilogy is some kind of hill to climb) they just finished a full HD cleanup/transfer of

100+ HOURS OF HOGAN'S HEROES AND T.J. HOOKER

that is all.