STAR WARS Movies Animated — Page 19

TheBoost said:

xhonzi said:

 

 Let me see if I can clear my end of this confusion up.

I'm proposing at the end of Episode 3 that Anakin is not Vader yet.  That Episode 3 ends with his death- therefore before his rebirth as Vader.  So- Obi-Wan does not know that Anakin is Vader because it hasn't even happened yet.  Somepoint in time before A New Hope, he figures this out.  However, he starts the lie right away that someone else killed Anakin to protect the good memory of Anakin.  If people know someone good (Obi-Wan) killed Anakin, that reveals that Anakin was bad.  If Obi-Wan says someone bad killed Anakin (Vader or Notvader (Frink's Dad)) then that perpetuates the myth that Anakin died a good Jedi.

Any better?

 So we never see Vader in this scenario? Hmmm... could work, although we Obi-Wan still has to know Anakin=Vader.

"We last we met I was but a learner now-"

"What? We've never met!"

 I think you just have to assume that they met "in the gap" as I like to call it.  That is, if you don't show a non Anakin Vader in the PT.  Anakin becoming Vader is also in the gap in this scenario.

I also assume there is a 20 year gap with things happening.  Maybe that's an assumption we need to talk about.

TheBoost said:

xhonzi said:

I think the delted scene about the lost 24 seems to back you up here.  Personally, I don't buy it.  How could there not be Dark Jedi?  How could there not be Dark Jedi in almost equal number to Light Jedi?  It's the line that all Jedi must walk, right?  Does the Force only speak to the pure in heart?  If so, then there is no threat of Luke becoming Vader II (or III or IV or LXI) and you need some kind of convoluted reason for why Anakin fell.

If the Jedi can just as easily be bad as good, then it makes them a big X-factor for the normal citizens of the galaxy and it just might be easier if they all went away and the proverbial baby was thrown out with the proverbial bath water.

But that's what's in the OT. Vader being seduced by the dark side was a big deal, so it must be uncommon.

I think we might have to agree to disagree here.  I think Anakin is a big deal for personal reasons, not statistical ones.  His fall is a big deal because we knew and loved him.  And because he had so much potential to be a great Jedi.  If your brother went to jail, you would feel a lot differently than seeing a ton of people you don't know in jail.  Or if your no-good cousin went to jail (like mine did) that would be a lot different than your favourite cousin that you trust implicitly going to jail.  It's a personal tragedy, not a galactic one.

Or, perhaps. Anakin is such a strong force user that his turn to the Dark Side has galactic consequences whereas Bob the Jedi falling to the Dark Side- not so much.

Perhaps the Force does only speak to the pure of heart. It seems likely. Being "Strong in the Force" isn't just a random mutation, but perhaps a special calling.

Yeah, it's hard to say.  The mystical part of it suggests that it comes to the pure in heart... but the corruptibility is there not only for Anakin, but for Luke as well.  So... of the 5 force users we see in the OT, 2 are bad and 1 is in danger of becoming bad as he develops his skills and strives to do the right thing.  The 2 that are good are hermits or are so passive that they decide suicide in front of their pupil is the only way to win a lightsabre fight.

In other words, ANH seems to say that Luke can use the force because he is pure in heart.  But ESB seems to say that he can blow it by being too human, too reckless, and too much like his father.  RoTJ seems to say that if you stay the course, not only is it possible to remain pure, but to triumph over pure evil and to redeem the fallen.

What do we know about the jedi from the OT?

• Guardians of Peace and Justice for a hecka long time.
• Betrayed and Murdered by Darth Vader.
• They begin training younger than their early 20s, apparently by Yoda or perhaps other Masters.
• Anakin fell because he was angry and impatient. It is possible he was trained poorly and began too old.

 

If the Jedi can just as easily be good or bad, then they aren't Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy. They're just a bunch of people with superpowers.

 I guess that brings back the discussion of "Dark Jedi/Sith."  Taking what you say above, I can say, "Yes.  The Jedi were all good and none were servants of the Dark Side.  Likewise, the Sith were all bad and none were Guardians of Peace and Justice."  I'll repeat that I'm not terribly interested in using the term Sith as an all purpose "Dark Jedi."  Maybe "Fallen Jedi" is more of use since it describes them as a sub-set of the Jedi that generic statements like "The Jedi were..." may not apply to.

Good discussion.

TheBoost said:

...then they would likely think "What? That doesn't make sense! We need a second PT to explain this."

 Or a third?

TheBoost said:

 

 If this was the case, during all of ANH and most of ESB the audience would be thinking "That sure was ambiguous. I wonder if it's Anakin or the other guy." When Vader says "No, I am your father." the reaction wouldn't be shock or surpirse but more likely "Yeah... that makes sense."

 This is the problem.  If you go down the "keep the surprize" path... then you can't suspect Anakin is Vader at any point until ESB.  Surprizes don't work when you say "It might be A or it might be B... SURPRIZE it's B!"  They sometimes work when you either say "It might be A or it might be B... SURPRIZE it's C!"  They work better when you say "It might be A or it might be B... SURPRIZE, it's a ham sandwich!"  Or when you just say... "Surprize!" without any of the lead up.

The Usual Suspects (SPOILER ALERT!) asked the question, "Is or isn't Keaton really Kyser Soze?"  All of your attention was focused there, so you didn't even see it coming from the other direction.  Successful misdirection is not when you make the audience guess what hand it's in, it's when you have them convinced that they know which hand it's in, not even stopping to think that it could be anywhere else, and of course they are wrong.

Bingowings said:

In fact Belisarius would make a great template for a Last Days of the Republic Jedi :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belisarius

 Bingo- maybe you need to draw the comparisons for me.  I skimmed over the wiki page and nothing jumped out at me.  I'm not a Byzantium scholar, so a lot of it is just Greek to me.  (see what I did there?)

Hmmm.....

How long would it take for these attitudes to develop, do you think?  Or do you think there were never 10,000 Jedi?

TheBoost said:

 

• The Empire is blatantly anti-Force

Sort of like the Nazi's being anti-Jewish except for the odd half Jewish Fuhrer?  Or could you mean, "Anti-Jedi"?

I agree- I don't think the Emperor's use of the Force was well known.

TheBoost said:

 

• The general public is probably unaware of the Emperor's status as an evil Force-Person.

Lolz.  Very PC of you, Boost.

How about "Person with Morally Challenged Force Use"?

It was always my interpretation, not that any of this came from anything official I don't think, that Vader, as "Dark Lord of the Sith" with a "sad devotion to that ancient religion" still had some code of ethics that he lived by.  Can't say exactly what that was...  But the Emperor sort of just used/abused whatever power he could.  That he had no formal Jedi training, and that he had no specific Sith religion either.  That he was a "wilder", to borrow a phrase from the Wheel of Time.  He had Force sensitivity and he taught himself or learned from others without following them all of the tricks he needed to get along.  And maybe that the Emperor in that way kooked Vader out a little.  I'm thinking of the Sheriff of Nottingham and the Witch in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves.  He's using her to his own means, but he actually finds her and her witchcraft somewhat repulsive due to this mostly traditional mindset.

So I was a little put off when the PT showed him as the head of the Sith order, with his own "Darth" title as well.

And speaking of things that would have been brought up in the OT had they actually existed in the PT... "Darth Sidious", anyone?

Yes, no farmer robes.

I don't remember Yoda saying anything about a council, but maybe I'm FORCING it out of my mind.

Yeah, there is no formal organization in my mind either.  I never thought of a conferrence like that, but it's not bad.

Part of my conceipt is that Obi-Wan made the deiscion to train Anakin because they were in the middle of the war.  That Obi-Wan perhaps served as a soldier in an earlier Clone War where he met someone who saw his potential and referred him to be trained by Yoda after the War.  Obi-Wan meets Anakin similarly and would make a referral for training, but can't stand to lose him until the fighting is over.  At some point in time, Obi-Wan decides to train him to the best of his abilities, even though he really shouldn't.

As far as the, "No!  Too old!  Yes, he is too old to begin the training!" line, I never took it too seriously.  Yoda is grasping at straws for reasons not to train Luke.

Besides, if they only traing kids to be Jedi, then I'm no longer eligible.  And I know that's not true.  ;)

I like the way this discussion is headed. I think that Han Solo and Governor - Moff Tarkin's comments about hokey religions (and ancient religion) and ancient weapons - do indeed indicate that the jedi - would seem to be somewhat of a myth or legend. To most of the general inhabitants of the galaxy....

However, Obi Wan Kenobi ...who was a general during the clone wars. Taught by Yoda a great Jedi Knight. Upon meeting the skilled Pilot - Anakin Skywalker, realised how strongly the force was with him and took it upon himself to teach Anakin as a Jedi.

When Ben/Obi Wan Kenobi originally tells Luke about his father being a Jedi Knight - all Ben is trying to do is get Luke to embrace the idea of learning to use the force. He tells Luke that "Oh no you father was never a captain on a merchant vessel...or what ever..." ...pause for effect "He was a Jedi Knight!".

Therefore in Lukes mind (and the audiences) he is the heir of a far more heroic type of character and just the sort of inspiration/motivation that Luke needs in order to leave the farm behind and set off in his fathers footsteps to join the fight against the empire. It also resolves Lukes need to know what happend to his father in very exciting way.

Ben Tells Luke that his uncle made up some some boring story about who his father was to keep him at the farm out of harms way.

I like to think that Ben decided not to tell Luke of the truth that Anakin became Darth vader, to protect him. Which i think is what most people would choose to do until the "young man" becomes old enough to handle the truth. Unfortunately Ben never gets the chance to tell him..... thus the shocking revelation from Vader that comes later.

...think ive rambled off topic for a bit but i like the idea that episodes 1- 3 ...if they are even needed, portray what few followers of the jedi there are as idealist's who follow a strict code of honor.... perhaps more akin to a warrior/samurai practice than monastic/pacifist/worshipfull type religion.

These are rare individuals, that follow the ideals of an ancient cult/order that once numbered into the thousands and protected the republic. But even in this time when Obi Wan is a young man fighting in the clone wars the jedi are considered an ancient religion and followers are scorned much the same way as some people today might scorn other religous individuals due to their belief in a spirituality. Although as we see during the movies their spirituality which is the Force does manifest itself on a physical and on a sub-conscious level.

The Sith are the anti-thesis of the Jedi, a cult that also has a secret following even less well known to the inhabitants of the galaxy than the jedi. Though legends often protray the jedi causing as much harm and strife as the Sith - therefore there is also a fear around the galaxy of force users Jedi or Sith. Although generally the Sith are a purely devil like nature. The Jedi are generally more honorable but not without tales of their fallen heroes.

Therefore when "Return of the Jedi" comes along it is mysteriously a young follower of the Jedi way that restores the balance of light to a beaten people - (with a little help from the rebel alliance)

...um hi again the point i originally wanted to make was this :)

I agree with what someone else said above (sorry im bad with names).

When obi wan says.... jedi were the guardians of peace and justice...before the dark times, before the empire... ie....a longer period of time than 20 years.

In my mind before the PT arrived. I imagined the backstory as thus: The Empire had been in power for a loong time, since before obi wan was born... if people in star wars have relatively the same life span! - The dark times refers to the period of time since the republic fell/crumpled and the time before the empire arrived.

Obi Wan grew up in the time of the empire - then came the clone wars which was an event much like a civil war - when battles were fought possibly by people who wanted freedom on one side versus the empire on the other that had an unlimited number of clone soldiers at its disposal (the thought of droid armies never even crossed my mind).

During the war - Obi wan a soldier who is also a jedi knight, respected by those that have fought with him in his unit. thus is promoted quite fast up the ranks untill becoming a general. But.... generally (no pun intended) jedi knights are not a well known order. They are often misunderstood, disrespected by those that havnt been in direct contact of the force manifestations - it is very rarely that force sensitive people are encountered. Thus Obi wans surprise when he encounters Anakin Skywalker who he senses is also force sensitive. Yoda is an ex-teacher, who doesnt think of himself as anything special but once taught obi wan.

...maybe have yoda in episode 1 but then he makes no other appearance until empire strikes back. The story then follows Obi wan - and his experiances in war as a solider and as a jedi practioner. Who then meets Anakin a brave pilot - the two become friends, Obi wan teaches Anakin all he knows about jedi techniques in order to compliment his pilotting skills as well as infantry type skills - Anakin too rises through the ranks with Obi wan - but where Obi wan remains at peace with his position in the scheme of things... hmm sort of. Anakin becomes disallusioned, and is no longer sure why he is fighting or what the point of it all is for - after seeing comrades die etc.... he starts to use the same tactics that the empire uses, eventually using the force to help him inflict more pain on the enemy soliders/clones.....thus betraying the core belief of the jedi.

Using the force in a state of high emotion allows the force to take control of him, thus losing his grip on reality - he becomes a product of his own hate - the emperoer somehow senses this disturbance in the force - the emperor unknown to anyone else is the last Sith Lord - and realises the potential of Anakin, although the emperor disguises himelf to walk amongst his subjects unknown. He befreinds Anakin as a kind of wild card element that is the opposite of Obi -wan and manipulates anakin.

Obi wan realises that anakin has become "lost to the light" and tries to save anakin from himself, only to agravate him more untill Obi wan is forced to defend himself... they fight......da da da....anakin falls in lava.... the person that survives is darth vader...."the transformation is forever burned into him..." The emperor reveals his true self to anakin they join forces - Anakins betrayal of the free peoples ends the war and he slaughters the rest if the known jedi ......thinking that obi wan is also dead... but anakin and the empire never knew of the existance of Yoda....so what has become of him? ...you find out in episode 5.

You dont see the suit of darth vader before episode 4.....episode 3 ends with anakin skywalker in a hospital type ward being healed...possibly suspended in a bacta tank? ....fade to credits.

no mention of Darth...anyone.

well something like that.

Nice ideas cut'n'shut.  Just one comment:

The recent emergence of the Empire is sort of well established, mostly offscreen but somewhat onscreen as well.  When Tarkin and Vader enter the conference room on the Death Star, Tarkin (I think) says he's just heard that the Emperor has dissolved the senate.  You're certainly able to reimagine it any way you please, but you might have a hard time getting other people to agree with you on that point in particular.