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STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - NOW IN PRODUCTION — Page 101

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I mean the canon novels have plenty of female imperial troopers and officers and even admirals. The only reason we don’t see those things in the movie is that the OT is a product of its time. You wouldn’t see females on villain roles simply because it was only ever done in a sexual deviant way at that point in time

Green is not a creative color

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 (Edited)

exitzero said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Telion said:

exitzero said:

never made any effort to turn Anakin back from the Darkside so the line doesn’t really make sense. But Padme did. Her >attempt to talk Anakin back on Mustafar was similar to Luke trying with Vader on Endor. I also like the idea of Vader >mentioning Padme when he’s talking to his son. I think it would add a little more weight to the conversation & when he’s >looking out over the forest.

Like I said-just a wish list.

Oh fair enough I don’t really watch the prequels enough these days, but yeah I guess that makes sense.

Even discounting the prequels (a good idea, IMHO), it would be a good change because it gives a bit more characterization/importance to the otherwise non-existent Mrs. Anakin Skywalker (using the name “Padme,” if just watching the OT, has little meaning). It also implies that Vader still thinks about her, which gives Luke some hint of a bit of goodness within him. While the name “Anakin Skywalker” might not mean anything to him, his wife does still hold some significance in his self-identity.

I’m also wondering how we all feel about deleting the line “It is too late for me, son.” It seems way too telegraphed and kind of gives away Vader’s turn (as does “It is pointless to resist”). Just having Vader stand at the window is enough to get the point across. Adywan hinted at incorporating some dialogue tweaks and I think these would be solid tweaks, along with deleting the whole “jealous Han” subplot that gets all of two scenes and gets cut out of most ROTJ edits (e.g., Darth Rush, who handled it pretty well).

“It is too late for me son”- I’ve always liked the way that line is delivered. It’s the first time we see any kind of crack in Vader’s veneer.

I like that line too. But, doesn’t it seem that if Vader can realize it’s “too late” for him, then he’s obviously not happy with the path he’s chosen? There’s obviously pain and regret there. So, wouldn’t he then try to get his son to choose a different way? It’s a logical lapse.
I’m good with it, but if it could be changed for the better, I’m all for that.
The idea of Vader silently looking out the window seems really great to me.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Telion said:

Oh speaking of the DSII, Ady: I had always preferred the original DS even though the second “looks cooler” but, when ever I watch ROTJ it just doesn’t seem right. And I finally think I know why, its a 2D picture. I don’t how they managed to go from effects as stunning as those from ANH - which brought a giant space ball to life - to something as awful as what is in ROTJ but hey they did it. What puzzles me most, is that the DSII does actually have a physical model, but for some unfathomable reason they only shot if from one angle for the whole movie, and proceeded to just copy/paste it to every shot.
So idk whether you can do anything about this or if there a DSII models (3D or physical) out there or any or some other footage that can be composited to work but if you can, could you give it that same subtle spin that the DSI had and just in general fix some inconsistencies with the angles of it in relation to Endor and the fleets?
Hope the edits going well!

I tried turning a still of the Death Star into “3D” using a displacement map to make it look like it was turning slowly and it seems like it could be pretty convincing.

https://vimeo.com/360161256 (password: fanedit)

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Tobar said:

ray_afraid said:

Also, is it stated in the movies (OT) that the Empire is drafting people? I kinda figured it was indoctrination and the lure of the darkside.

BIGGS: I know it’s a long shot, but if I don’t find them I’ll do what I can on my own… It’s what we always talked about. Luke, I’m not going to wait for the Empire to draft me into service. The Rebellion is spreading and I want to be on the right side – the side I believe in.

LUKE: Well, I’ll be at the Academy next season… after that who knows. I won’t be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet that’s for sure… Take care of yourself, you’ll always be the best friend I’ve got.

Oh, yeah! That’s not actually in the movie, but it’s one of my favorite scenes and I do take it as canon so… ight. There it is. 😃
[i missed this post earlier]

Also, thanks to Dom & Co. for keeping the back n’ forth civil.
Didn’t change my mind (RotJ is certainly more forward thinking in it’s casting than it’s getting credit for), but thanks to all but one for not being as ass about the disagreement.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Sir Ridley said:

Telion said:

Oh speaking of the DSII, Ady: I had always preferred the original DS even though the second “looks cooler” but, when ever I watch ROTJ it just doesn’t seem right. And I finally think I know why, its a 2D picture. I don’t how they managed to go from effects as stunning as those from ANH - which brought a giant space ball to life - to something as awful as what is in ROTJ but hey they did it. What puzzles me most, is that the DSII does actually have a physical model, but for some unfathomable reason they only shot if from one angle for the whole movie, and proceeded to just copy/paste it to every shot.
So idk whether you can do anything about this or if there a DSII models (3D or physical) out there or any or some other footage that can be composited to work but if you can, could you give it that same subtle spin that the DSI had and just in general fix some inconsistencies with the angles of it in relation to Endor and the fleets?
Hope the edits going well!

I tried turning a still of the Death Star into “3D” using a displacement map to make it look like it was turning slowly and it seems like it could be pretty convincing.

https://vimeo.com/360161256 (password: fanedit)

Hey, that’s cool. Very well done.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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In the early '90s when I was first exposed to the Legends EU, the Empire’s racism and sexism was EU canon at the very least. Bear in mind the significance of Grand Admiral Thrawn’s elevated rank being even more amazing, as he was the non-human to earn the Emperor’s respect and achieve such a high status. The “Declaration of Rebellion” furthered this as EU canon.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Declaration_of_Rebellion/Legends

And remember, there are no aliens in the OT films within the Imperial hierarchy. I believe this was likely a subtle allusion to the evils and racism of Naziism. This was picked up on and expanded upon in the EU to include sexism.
Admiral Daala, whom I consider something of a Thrawn ripoff, was the highest-ranking female within the Empire.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Natasi_Daala

A lot of this was clearly eliminated with the coming forth of the prequels and Palpatine’s alien and female advisors…

…but I believe many of the time interpreted the Empire as a racist, sexist regime.

That’s not to say they wouldn’t necessarily use women in a lowly role as cannon fodder, but I am largely in agreement with ray_afraid’s appraisal of the Empire’s bigotry, at least taking into account only pre-1999 material.

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😃

I probably will still seldom post, but I felt I wanted to jump in for a bit and I believe I will resume participation from time to time. I think I’ve had enough time to cool off and I feel the general environment here has drastically improved.

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Sir Ridley said:

I tried turning a still of the Death Star into “3D” using a displacement map to make it look like it was turning slowly >and it seems like it could be pretty convincing.

OMG Ridley, you never cease to amaze me. That is exactly what I imagined (freaking space wizard)

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Nice to see you again ender. I’m aware of how the EU portrayed things, but in regards to this topic, ady has stated he’s not taking that material into his account for his edit.

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Sir Ridley said:
I tried turning a still of the Death Star into “3D” using a displacement map to make it look like it was turning slowly and it seems like it could be pretty convincing.

https://vimeo.com/360161256 (password: fanedit)

Great stuff 😃 Perhaps even better if you pan it to the left it a bit while rotating.

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4throck said:

Sir Ridley said:
I tried turning a still of the Death Star into “3D” using a displacement map to make it look like it was turning slowly and it seems like it could be pretty convincing.

https://vimeo.com/360161256 (password: fanedit)

Great stuff 😃 Perhaps even better if you pan it to the left it a bit while rotating.

Thank you. In this case I tried to simulate a camera moving around the Death Star, but the same method can be used to create different kinds of movement. It has to be subtle, if you turn it too much it can look fake.

I wonder if the rotating would add continuity issues. The first Death Star rotated slowly even when stationary, but if it’s seen rotating in the same spot you would eventually see the other side of it. I don’t know if that was taken into account in ANH. In RotJ it’s always shown from the same side.

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Good point. If it’s in a stationary orbit, like our moon, could simulating a slight camera move be enhanced by slightly shifting the background Endor element at the same time? (To subtly imply the rotation of the DS we see is the result of the camera moving.)

JEDIT: Hell, for all I know Ady will just somehow depict the DS as rotating and show its unfinished side head-on sometimes.

PM me for links to my edits; apparently, some feel shy about this.

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It could in some cases, but that wouldn’t work where there are foreground objects. For example, in many cases the Death Star is viewed from a ship, and in that case the camera is stuck in the ship and can’t orbit the Death Star. I think it would be easier to just have the Death Star spinning slightly by itself to give it a sense of volume, I don’t know if it would be obvious enough to raise questions.

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Well the issue is the DS can’t rotate all the way around, as it has to be facing the rebel fleet to fire at it. But… (bare in mind I have no idea how you did the thing you did) …but surely you can have the direction of rotation in any direction? So what I wonder, is whether its possible to use it to simulate perspective for the shots, like where Home-One are doing crazy maneuvers while a camera is in them (like at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f38a6pYL_jE&t=115s).
Also when when I was re-watching this (again) i noticed that when the DS fires the second shot is flipped vertically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f38a6pYL_jE&t=245s I assume because they didn’t want people to know ist the same shot reused but this just begs the question how the conceived by midichlorians did it to a 180 fire and another one 180 in like 3 seconds? The other thing is that we could (if we can?) have it do the whole subtle rotate thing, but to suggest it is doing to to aim the laser. So it could do that for the first few shots then when it is building up to the first shot we see it stop and start to rotate in another direction, just to build suspense before the emperor reveals it is a “fully operation battle station!” then that can be constantly changing as it picks the next target.

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With the method I used it can rotate in any direction and also tilt up and down. So you could simulate the perspective in the shot you mention.

Essentially you only have a half Death Star though, which is why it can’t turn very far in a single shot. Perhaps pictures from different angles could be combined to allow a bigger range of motion, if needed.

I assume the Death Star can turn itself in any direction for aiming, so that could be shown as well. But changing direction would likely be very slow, so perhaps it would need to be shown through a series of shots to not drag down the tempo of the overall sequence.

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Tobar said:

ray_afraid said:

Also, is it stated in the movies (OT) that the Empire is drafting people? I kinda figured it was indoctrination and the lure of the darkside.

BIGGS: I know it’s a long shot, but if I don’t find them I’ll do what I can on my own… It’s what we always talked about. Luke, I’m not going to wait for the Empire to draft me into service. The Rebellion is spreading and I want to be on the right side – the side I believe in.

LUKE: Well, I’ll be at the Academy next season… after that who knows. I won’t be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet that’s for sure… Take care of yourself, you’ll always be the best friend I’ve got.

As an aside, this convo with Luke completely dispels the EU misconception that Luke was joining an Imperial Academy. Why would Biggs and Luke be worried about being drafted into the Empire if they were already signing up? On the contrary, it points to the Academy either being part of a local municipality or the equivalent of a trucker school. Just one of those things that the EU got wrong that has always bugged me.

On the other hand, you could interpret this about going for officer to avoid being drafted as a grunt.

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timdiggerm said:

Tobar said:

ray_afraid said:

Also, is it stated in the movies (OT) that the Empire is drafting people? I kinda figured it was indoctrination and the lure of the darkside.

BIGGS: I know it’s a long shot, but if I don’t find them I’ll do what I can on my own… It’s what we always talked about. Luke, I’m not going to wait for the Empire to draft me into service. The Rebellion is spreading and I want to be on the right side – the side I believe in.

LUKE: Well, I’ll be at the Academy next season… after that who knows. I won’t be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet that’s for sure… Take care of yourself, you’ll always be the best friend I’ve got.

As an aside, this convo with Luke completely dispels the EU misconception that Luke was joining an Imperial Academy. Why would Biggs and Luke be worried about being drafted into the Empire if they were already signing up? On the contrary, it points to the Academy either being part of a local municipality or the equivalent of a trucker school. Just one of those things that the EU got wrong that has always bugged me.

On the other hand, you could interpret this about going for officer to avoid being drafted as a grunt.

That’s how I’ve always interpreted it.

a trolling bantha

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DominicCobb said:

Nice to see you again ender. I’m aware of how the EU portrayed things, but in regards to this topic, ady has stated he’s not taking that material into his account for his edit.

Nice to see you, too! I’m not advocating that Adywan use Legends EU to guide his vision. I’m simply pointing out that early EU was shaped by the OT alone, and that this was their perception. I had not drawn that conclusion at the time, but I was only 11 or 12 when first reading that material. Nevertheless, it left a lasting impression on me that the Empire was that way, and that I simply hadn’t picked up on the cues in my childhood. It has shaped my thinking of the OT at the time and still persists to this day.

As I pointed out, if it ever was the intention, it obviously no longer was by the time the prequels came out. Personally, I feel it makes the Empire seem more evil.

Either way, it’s up to Ady. I was just sharing my perspective of why it made sense and seemed the way the Empire was for a while.

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Apologies in advance for the wall of text/pics
OK, I hate to be a pain with constant posting of more problems but I’ve just been re-watching the Space Battle of Endor a few times and I’ve come up with a wonderfully unrealistic wish list of fixes.

Scale/Perspective:
OK takes up the bulk of the issues with the battle but its also the least likely to be an easy fix. So there are shots with a bunch star destroyers where they are scaled differently yet look like they are the same distance from the camera. This is because they all filmed separately and composited together, but they didn’t add any depth of field to the shots. For instance the size of the SSD next to an ordinary SD:

Speed:
The same type of ship looking like it moves faster/is closer but to small when further way. This affect happens in a few shots in is do to a combination of problems on of which is that they don’t keep in mind that objects that are further away appear to move slower across the screen.

Shadows:
This is really fantasy and would likely take to long/be too hard but the shows are very inconsistent in the battle, with light sources coming from different direction or having different intensities, and in some shots Home-One in particular look like mat painting because the lighting makes them seem flat. Also ships that a close to one another would cast shows on other ships/fighters. I can imagine the seen seeming far more real if you had fighters casting shows on star destroyers as they zoomed past. But again I doubt this could happen.

Explosions:
Now I may be wrong but I think ady said he was doing something about explosions already but either way there are a couple of issues with them. One is that that they are all the same type of explosion regardless of how large or small they are meant to be. So a Star destroyer blows up and look the same as a Tie fighter blowing. The Star destroyer is larger and further away so it should be a slightly different colour and and larger chunks inside. Also the quality difference between ANH/ESB and ROTJ is bigger than ever in the explosion department. They’re all stock explosions here just C/P unlike the others. I mean in EBR you can see a pilot flying of of a cockpit and disintegration when a TIE hits an asteroid. But in ROTJ there is no chucks of anything in any explosion. So I guess if you can put some kind of dark bits in just flying out from the explosion it would look like the ship breaking apart. And while the explosion itself would be played at the same speed the chucks of ships further away would move slower than ones closer to the camera.

Colour:
The colour grading is not consistent between shots, for instant tie fighters often seem way more blue than in other films where as the SSD seems more yellow than in ESB. And then you have the mon-cal ships some of which look the grey/brown like they should, but Home-one looks blue or red tinted depending on the shot. And then we have the MF and rebel fighters that all change hue like its some kind of rave. But for some reason its not a consistent change to all ships in any one shot but each individual ship. Again this would take a long time to fix as I imagine (again little to no knowledge baking this up but) you would have to roto each ship out to recolour it, so it probably wont happen.

DSII: Oh Boy…
It suffers of all of these as well as feeling like a floating sticker (though apparent that’s fixable (understatement) with magic). But here we dive into the whole in the thing (seriously huge) where in sections it feels to light. Now I’m not asking for asteroid cave worm kind of dark here, but it doesn’t feel like they are going deep into the depths of a moon sized space station. So yeah if it were darker the deeper they go, maybe the falcon could put its lights on, then when they get to the core it would have that blue glow illuminating everything which would turn orange/red as the explosions followed them up. I feel like it would give tension and then awe as they navigate this dark tunnel network and reach the cavernous reactor room, which would turn to fear as they are pursued by a fiery wave of death.

Again this is a long shot of a wish list but hopefully some of these are agreeable and more importantly doable. Thanks for reading it it anyway. Unless you skipped to the last line in which case who does that.

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Watching ESB:R, I thought Ady did add add some debris on a few of the Tie explosions. I would like to see a lot more of that.

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Telion said:

Scale/Perspective:
OK takes up the bulk of the issues with the battle but its also the least likely to be an easy fix. So there are shots with a bunch star destroyers where they are scaled differently yet look like they are the same distance from the camera. This is because they all filmed separately and composited together, but they didn’t add any depth of field to the shots. For instance the size of the SSD next to an ordinary SD:

There wouldn’t be any visible depth of field at that scale. It’s like photographing mountains from a distance, they would all be in focus.

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Sir Ridley said:

There wouldn’t be any visible depth of field at that scale. It’s like photographing mountains from a distance, they would all be in focus.

So whats making that show feel off? Or is it just me.

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Telion said:

Sir Ridley said:

There wouldn’t be any visible depth of field at that scale. It’s like photographing mountains from a distance, they would all be in focus.

So whats making that show feel off? Or is it just me.

It’s not easy to show distance in space. If something is further away it will just look smaller.

In your first image the star destroyer is probably actually in front of the SSD, but because it’s placed higher up in the frame you get the impression that it is behind the SSD which makes it look too big. Unless the objects overlap it’s difficult to tell which one is closer.

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timdiggerm said:

Tobar said:

ray_afraid said:

Also, is it stated in the movies (OT) that the Empire is drafting people? I kinda figured it was indoctrination and the lure of the darkside.

BIGGS: I know it’s a long shot, but if I don’t find them I’ll do what I can on my own… It’s what we always talked about. Luke, I’m not going to wait for the Empire to draft me into service. The Rebellion is spreading and I want to be on the right side – the side I believe in.

LUKE: Well, I’ll be at the Academy next season… after that who knows. I won’t be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet that’s for sure… Take care of yourself, you’ll always be the best friend I’ve got.

As an aside, this convo with Luke completely dispels the EU misconception that Luke was joining an Imperial Academy. Why would Biggs and Luke be worried about being drafted into the Empire if they were already signing up? On the contrary, it points to the Academy either being part of a local municipality or the equivalent of a trucker school. Just one of those things that the EU got wrong that has always bugged me.

On the other hand, you could interpret this about going for officer to avoid being drafted as a grunt.

IIRC the idea in the deleted scene was that it wasn’t (or wasn’t just) a military academy. Biggs came back with a commission on a civilian freighter.

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