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STAR WARS: EP V "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - AVAILABLE NOW — Page 116

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Again, it's all a matter of opinion.

Most of nohandluke's points have merit and (I think) would reside in the majority of Star Wars fans' hearts, but it's his opinion.  -1 believes differently and makes his points.  Both posts seem a little on the argumentative side for those on the opposite side of the fence, however.  I personally don't feel Revenge of the Sith is anywhere close to the quality of The Empire Strikes Back, but to each his own.

I agree with nohandluke for the most part.  In my opinion, ESB (1980) ranks as one of the few movies I consider to be 'perfect' as well.  Yes you can argue technical, creative, and narrative points about the film, but let me explain my position.

Watching the movie for the first time (or one hundredth for some:) ), one can get the emotional and visceral impact of the film.  The pacing is spot on, the direction is great, the cinematography superb, and the music is perfection personified (John Williams best score by far, and a masterpiece of composition from start to finish).  It built on what Star Wars began and brought it to levels unseen.  Star Wars is a great film, but suffers from more technical difficulties than ESB as well as some pacing issues (I've watched with some first timers and they've gotten bored with Tatooine in the beginning; for good or bad they just wanted to get on with the story).  I don't think of the original Star Wars as a perfect film, though.  ESB can slow a little post-Hoth, but the Jedi training is juxtaposed nicely with the Falcon's escape and keeps things interesting and the film moving.

Does ESB function as a stand alone film without SW and ROTJ on either end?  Probably not**.  But those seeing it have already seen Star Wars and the cliff hanger ending makes one want to see Return of the Jedi.  It takes the "heroes always triumph" modality Star Wars maintained and flips it on its head, showing that the bad guys do win sometimes.  This robs the viewer of his or her "always safe" feelings for the protagonist and provides tension for the rest of the show and series.

I think this is why ESB has struck such an emotional chord with people around the world.  It's not a safe movie.  It moves quickly.  A lot of new ideas are presented.  Old notions are explored.  No one is safe.

Again, different tastes for different people, but The Empire Strikes Back simply FEELS like Star Wars to me, and I get the same feeling every time I watch it (a feeling any of the three prequels failed to catch, in my opinion).  It is perfect in my eyes from an overall product standpoint, but with Ady's help, all the little technical nuances that stand out to some will be tweaked and a potentially superior product will come of it.  The original 1980 film will always be the gold standard, but a visually tweaked version performed by a skilled artist with respect for the source will be a welcome addition indeed.

 

**This would make for an interesting experiment.  Try to find someone who knows nothing about Star Wars.  No Vader, no Luke, no Force, nothing.  Show them The Empire Strikes Back without seeing Star Wars first and then gauge their reaction.  Did they like it?  What impact did it have?  I'd like to see this done some day...

O.T. or No T., baby!

ANH:R Cover Art

ESB:R Cover Art

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Negative, your comments only succeed in confusing me as to WHY someone who has such disdain and uncoordinated loathing for Empire Strikes Back would have even bothered to pay God knows how much money for a 35mm print of this film. To hear you tell it, Empire is the pariah of the saga and yet you have embarked on this unprecedented investment in this print project to save it.

Do the Empire fans a favor and donate the print to Adywan or ADigitalMan or DarthEditous or someone who actually seems to care about this movie. After reading your comments and then knowing you have that print is akin to finding out that Al Gore burns redwood trees in his backyard on piles of styrofoam. I'm reminded of that certain director who insisted that Greedo fired first, and then stuck it to everyone when he wore a "Han Shoots First" shirt on the set of Indy IV.

To even begin to say that Empire was averagely directed speaks to your complete disconnection with the story behind the production. I, and many others here, have researched this film's production story (which is not easy, and there is a reason) and learned that director Irvin Kershner and producer Gary Kurtz were forced to take on George Lucas head-on to ensure the movie turned out as well as it did. I won't bore you with the details, but the behind-the-scenes saga is incredibly fascinating and really sheds a lot of light on WHY the subsequent films fell downhill so rapidly. Kershner and Kurtz were DEVOTED to the development of this story - so much so that they worked ceaselessly with the actors both on and off camera to improve the script, lighting and atmosphere. And it shows. In fact, the only reason I have the SE DVD is for Irvin Kershner's commentary, which is an education unto itself. Unlike Lucas who waxes on and on about technical effects, Kershner talks about story development and how narratives take shape and how he worked with the actors to make it all come alive.

http://www.geocities.com/mfbespinluke/production.html

In any case, you're entitled to your opinion - but it still boggles me that you have such a biting stance towards the film, and yet, you own a 35mm print of it...By chance do you also own prints of Sheena or Allan Quatermain and the Lost City of Gold? Just curious if you are a collector of films that disappointed you...

 

"I turned it off! I don't wanna talk to her!"
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 (Edited)

maybe we should just take this offline, or you should actually read all the pages in 35mm ESB thread.

but since you decided to publicly chastise me here, i'll answer you..

 

i AM a fan of STAR WARS....period... the original trilogy,

i don't like all the movies equally, i DONT HATE ESB... its just not

as good as Star Wars..

 

as a 'casual' fan, why shouldn't i bother investing money in it FOR THE GOOD
OF EVERYONE HERE.... don't you think ADYWAN and everyone else who wants

will be getting it?

 

if this movie is so great, why DON'T YOU OWN IT? am i the first person to come onto

this board, that actually was bothered enough to get it? and by the way, i'm desperately

trying to get the other reels of 'Star Wars' too... which are much more important to me,

and i THINK TO ANYONE ELSE THAT HAS BEEN TO THIS BOARD...............

 

where do you come off, on being the all-knowing, all-speaking voice for supposedly

everyone here?

 

don't you think i have better things to do with my money and my time?

the only reason i'm sharing this stuff on this board, is because i'm tired of

waiting around for anyone to do anything about it..

 

if its that easy for a 'casual' fan such as myself to get this, what is everyone

else doing (and yes, i'm totally aware of all the restoration projects, and other

things going on, and am totally appreciate of what there is going on)..

 

if everyone would quit griping about there is NO HD, anamorphic versions of the

movies they liked, why don't they actually do something about it? i've been coming

to these boards for years, and i KNOW that there have been plenty of copies in

16mm, and 35mm of the trilogy on ebay several times (a 16mm version of empire

sold for twice what i paid for the 35mm version)..........

 

are you telling me that nobody has bothered to acquire a version that they are

willing to share with the community up until now??????? i find it hard to believe,

but you seem to be telling me that is the case..

 

back to my personal opinions, that's all they are... you have yours , and i have mine..

what difference does it make if i don't feel as strongly as you do about ESB?

i'm interested in the technical and preservation aspects of restoring the movie,

as a challenge.... why can't i be involved from that perspective?

 

by the way, the 35mm ESB is the first piece of film i have ever owned, since then,

all i've gotten is several trailers from star wars, and 8mm/16mm versions, along

with a 16mm trailer for indiana jones, and finally the 35mm reel  6 of 'star wars'..

(which contains the death star battle, which to me, is an experience UNMATCHED

by ANY OTHER FILM I'VE EVER SEEN)...

 

there, does that make me a hypocrite? or does that mean my standards are lower?

or not good enough for you?

 

do you want me to hand deliver the HD version to your doorstep, when its done

being restored, so that you will finally stop complaining about Lucasfilm, and it

not being handled properly??

 

later

-1

 

 

 

[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]

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negative1 said:
nohandluke said:

Nothing about the 1980 version of Empire Strikes Back sucked. It was a seminal moment in film history where everything came together in the end in complete narrative and aesthetic synergy. There are only a handful of films that can boast such perfection (e.g. Lawrence of Arabia) At the end of the day, were there a proper anamorphic DVD transfer of this original 1980 version, there would be no need for Adywan to even work on this film. As it is however, sadly, there is no proper DVD and hence Adywan must take a not-so-special edition and make it special so we can have something that is presentable on a modern home theater.

i'm sorry, but ESB was a let down for me when i saw it, i wanted to know what happened right after star wars, and it jumped ahead without filling in all the gaps... i also felt let down that it was the middle third part [i wasn't too fanatical to read that there was a plan for the third film], and didn't feel conclusive at all.... what if 'jedi' had never been made? then what? there were narrative leaps, and plot subpoints that didn't click for me ...

 

The lack of a satisfying conclusion was exactly what I loved most about ESB- it was daring, edgy, unconventional and very "UN-Hollywood".

I never doubted there would be a third film. I didn't see it until the re-release in 1982, so by then we knew they were already filming Jedi, but even in 1980, the huge success of ESB made 'part 3' a given. 

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Mielr said:
negative1 said:
nohandluke said:

Nothing about the 1980 version of Empire Strikes Back sucked. It was a seminal moment in film history where everything came together in the end in complete narrative and aesthetic synergy. There are only a handful of films that can boast such perfection (e.g. Lawrence of Arabia) At the end of the day, were there a proper anamorphic DVD transfer of this original 1980 version, there would be no need for Adywan to even work on this film. As it is however, sadly, there is no proper DVD and hence Adywan must take a not-so-special edition and make it special so we can have something that is presentable on a modern home theater.

i'm sorry, but ESB was a let down for me when i saw it, i wanted to know what happened right after star wars, and it jumped ahead without filling in all the gaps... i also felt let down that it was the middle third part [i wasn't too fanatical to read that there was a plan for the third film], and didn't feel conclusive at all.... what if 'jedi' had never been made? then what? there were narrative leaps, and plot subpoints that didn't click for me ...

 

The lack of a satisfying conclusion was exactly what I loved most about ESB- it was daring, edgy and unconventional and was very "UN-Hollywood".

I never doubted there would be a third film. I didn't see it until the re-release in 1982, so by then we knew they were already filming Jedi, but even in 1980, the huge success of ESB made 'part 3' a given. 

 

 all of you must have been more movie-savvy, and knowledgable than myself as young

teenager... i never saw a trailer for star wars, i saw 1 preview for ESB, with the re-release

of 'star wars'... (this was in Canada, way back in the early 80's)....... i didn't pay attention

to box-office figures, i didn't read star wars magazines, watch news reports, or reflect on

future box-office predictions...

 

i bought the collectors cards, i had the bedsheets, and a couple of action figures...

heck, by the time Empire Strikes Back came out, i was visitting London, England,

and saw it in 70mm at the Odeon there...... i knew the movie was out, only because i

looked in the newspaper and saw an ad for it..... yeah, of course at the end, i was

wondering what happened ? and was this it? i hadn't seen to many sequels, and

i can't even remember if there were movies with a 'third part'..

 

i think i saw a 'time' magazine article about 'return of the jedi', and once again,

having never seen a trailer...went to see 'jedi' in the theater.... i actually felt

better that it was much better at filling in the gaps, and having a storyline

that seemed more linear...and of course the ending rocked....

 

later

-1

[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]

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Well said, Mielr, and well said, negative1. The civility is refreshing. If nohandluke does want to continue the discussion, maybe it should be taken to PMland, though. I don't see Ady wanting to go through such things when he comes back, y'know? :)

My crazy vinyl LP blog

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Ripplin said:

Well said, Mielr, and well said, negative1. The civility is refreshing. If nohandluke does want to continue the discussion, maybe it should be taken to PMland, though. I don't see Ady wanting to go through such things when he comes back, y'know? :)

 

 actually, i've been falling asleep in this thread, up until then..

 

with all the talk (for the millionth time), about adding/not adding more

ice creature shots/ clouds / ships / battle scenes / etc etc etc....don't

people EVER go to the suggestion terminal before posting?

that would eliminate 70% of the messages from this thread..

later

-1

[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]

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It's funny that Negative1 is called "negative" just because he expresses his own opinion, and doesn't agree with the posters above? Allow people to have their own opinions please. It's ok if everyone doesn't feel the exact same way. It's great to have diversity in thought.  If you have to slam everyone that doesn't feel the exact same way you do, or  jump on the bandwagon of the guy saying something as childish as only 10 year olds think that way, you might want to re-examine yourself and purpose in life. Your opinion is not always the right one, just because it's yours. Maybe lighten up a bit, and enjoy your own opinion, but respect that others enjoy their opposing opinions as much as you do. Peace.... 

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Ripplin said:

Well said, Mielr, and well said, negative1. The civility is refreshing. If nohandluke does want to continue the discussion, maybe it should be taken to PMland, though. I don't see Ady wanting to go through such things when he comes back, y'know? :)

 

 Or maybe the General Star Wars discussion thread.  I'd bet 3/4ths of the post here would be better suited there.  It is like so many of you here (especially those that joined the forum after Ady's first edit was done) only know about this thread.  There are lots of other great places to post on this site. 

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For those wanting to know more about the making of the empire strikes back i suggest picking up a used copy of Once Upon a Galaxy:  A Journal of the Making of The Empire Strikes Back.

 

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Perhaps it's because 35s ain't exactly cheap and easy to come by...

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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DMaarten said:
cas_tanje said:

 

 

Hello guys, my first post here! :D

I have spoken to Adywan on Youtube, and asked him some things. Most of these were already added to the list, so there are only four things left that I would like to be added:

- Give the lightsaber duel a faster pace. (I didn't see it on the list?)
- Change the interior of the ships (on Hoth?) So they look more like the prequels
- Let the platforms of the ships (Where the people walk in and out the ship) go down more smoothly (In Cloud City etc.)
- Add more ships to Cloud City

Excuse me if they are already on the list. And Excuse me for my bad English, I hope you can understand me xD.

Cas_Tanje

My opinion:

1 not gonna happen, the fight is good as it is

2 not gonna happen, the interiors are fine, the prequels suck :)

3 like it, would be better if it is smoother faster

4 also good, since a LOT of people live/work there, just no overload, just a couple more here and there

 

 

 

1 - Oh common! Imagine how many better the fight will be! Why shouldn't adywan do that as he did with Obi vs. Vader in A New Hope?

It would also be better if he added some music as he did with ANH.

And the worst part is when Vader starts throwing things to Luke (with the force offcourse). It really looks fake!Those things won't hurt at that low speed. Maybe you can speed those things up?

Face it xD ! The fight just isn't spectacular anymore. In my opinion it really has to be a little pimped!

2 - It doesn't matter if the prequels suck, the OriginalTrilogy is the future of the PrequelTrilogy. The interiors look prehistoric, not futuristic. That's why they could use a good makeover. They just don't fit anymore in the chronologic order.

3 - Thank you :D !
4 - Thanks again :D xD!

 

 

So, Adywan/GoodMusician, please consider that you add these things to the list.

Cas_tanje

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1 - Oh common! Imagine how many better the fight will be! Why shouldn't adywan do that as he did with Obi vs. Vader in A New Hope?

It would also be better if he added some music as he did with ANH.

And the worst part is when Vader starts throwing things to Luke (with the force offcourse). It really looks fake!Those things won't hurt at that low speed. Maybe you can speed those things up?

Face it xD ! The fight just isn't spectacular anymore. In my opinion it really has to be a little pimped!

2 - It doesn't matter if the prequels suck, the OriginalTrilogy is the future of the PrequelTrilogy. The interiors look prehistoric, not futuristic. That's why they could use a good makeover. They just don't fit anymore in the chronologic order.

3 - Thank you :D !
4 - Thanks again :D xD!

 

 

So, Adywan/GoodMusician, please consider that you add these things to the list.

Cas_tanje

1.There is lot more going on in this duel than just fighting. One thing the PT duel sorely lacked was any kind of emotional ebb and flow in the confrontations. The pacing is perfect.  Little bit of fighting, then slow it down, more intense fighting, slow it down, even more fighting, big climax! (This technique works in other areas as well...) 

The whole vader throwing stuff at luke scene is fine. The debris is flying around at a decent clip. Don't believe me, have a friend throw a garbage can at your head and see if it knocks you off balance.

2. This is a problem with the PT not the OT. Thankfully Ady has stated many times that he'll try to match the PT to the OT, not the other way around.

3. I don't particualry care about platform speeds.

4. More ships would be fine within reason.

 

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Quick question:  Other than improved lightsaber effects and new music, what did Ady do to the Obi-Wan/Vader duel in ANH?  I don't remember it being any different other than those two things.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Quick question:  Other than improved lightsaber effects and new music, what did Ady do to the Obi-Wan/Vader duel in ANH?  I don't remember it being any different other than those two things.

He actually did a new edit of it.  I can't recall specifics, but I think there are tighter cuts and some rearranging.  Quite nice, especially when you didn't notice.  Can't do that to ESB, since the fight is pretty linear, instead of two old guys spinning around in one room, who then move next to an open door.

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I think he may have sped up the clips just a hair as well.

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Faster! More Intense!

Really.. I stand corrected.

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It could be that you were watching the PAL version, which by nature has a 4% speedup from NTSC/film.

And I need to compare those fights again, because I could have sworn there was nothing different ... wow ... impressive

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 (Edited)

Adywan, are you making an audio commentary about all the fixes and changes you made to the movies? Perhaps you could make a short video of you working on the movies?

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My dream is to fly to England and make a documentary with Adywan.  That's just a dream though.


Adywan has tried audio commentary, but it was going to take up too much space on the DVD and he doesn't like the sound of his own voice (I can understand).  The text commentary goes through more than an audio one would anyway.  It'd be nice to have both (like the Star Trek movies do), or a seperate documentary, but I don't think it would happen.

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 (Edited)
dumb_kid said:

1 - Oh common! Imagine how many better the fight will be! Why shouldn't adywan do that as he did with Obi vs. Vader in A New Hope?

It would also be better if he added some music as he did with ANH.

And the worst part is when Vader starts throwing things to Luke (with the force offcourse). It really looks fake!Those things won't hurt at that low speed. Maybe you can speed those things up?

Face it xD ! The fight just isn't spectacular anymore. In my opinion it really has to be a little pimped!

2 - It doesn't matter if the prequels suck, the OriginalTrilogy is the future of the PrequelTrilogy. The interiors look prehistoric, not futuristic. That's why they could use a good makeover. They just don't fit anymore in the chronologic order.

1.There is lot more going on in this duel than just fighting. One thing the PT duel sorely lacked was any kind of emotional ebb and flow in the confrontations. The pacing is perfect.  Little bit of fighting, then slow it down, more intense fighting, slow it down, even more fighting, big climax! (This technique works in other areas as well...) 

The whole vader throwing stuff at luke scene is fine. The debris is flying around at a decent clip. Don't believe me, have a friend throw a garbage can at your head and see if it knocks you off balance.

2. This is a problem with the PT not the OT. Thankfully Ady has stated many times that he'll try to match the PT to the OT, not the other way around.

 

1 - He could speed up the parts where they fight, and keep the original speed when it slows down and they talk. In that way it keeps its emotional ebb and it would be so much more intense.
What about adding 'Battle of the Heroes' then (or another good song)? Adywan is considering it :D I hope he does add it!

2 - This isn't a problem with the PT. It is a problem with the time, the things (at this point the interiors) are ment to look futuristic, but they just don't, due time(And George couldn't use the older interiors in the newer PT, because they would have looked old). Like I said, they just don't fit anymore in the chronologic order.

And Adywan can fix that! 

 

Cas_Tanje

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i hate waiting. u still plan on having it out by 2009? btw. when lukes has the vision of leia and han suffering, u should somehow give a flash of wat that looks like.