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A More Elegant Weapon, a More Civilized Age

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When I first saw The Phantom Menace, like everyone else, I was blown away by the Jinn-Kenobi-Maul duel. Here, at last, was what real Jedi combat looked like. Constant motion, Force pushes, light and color flying and cracking everywhere. But my opinion of it faded over time. Why do they keep moving their blades out of a sensibe guard position into dramatic poses? Why do they keep spinning their sabers around pointlessly?

Somewhere on the web, I read an essay on the duel that made me reappraise it (again). One of its points stuck with me: When Kenobi pauses to twirl his lightsaber like a showman, Maul kicks him in the face. This, I thought, was the beginning of the evolution that would give us the Kenobi of A New Hope. By Episode III, I expected Kenobi to keep his center of gravity low, make only controlled movements, focus on defense, and save his energy for one or two really devastating attacks.

Of course, that's not what happened. Kenobi in Episode III is just as showy as ever. At one point, Kenobi and Skywalker stand face-to-face and twirl their blades about to no apparent effect for several seconds. Either one could've kneed the other in the groin at that part and ended the fight. (Probably against the Jedi code duello which, as I've pointed out before, is a highly ritualized affair.)

My only experience with swordplay is fencing foil under the FIE rules. Sport fencing is so formalized as to be almost useless when the subject is real combat, but I'd like to think a few of the things I've learned are applicable. Mainly, masters don't play around. Kenobi must've had a decade on Skywalker's training, and should have been objectively the better lightsabrist. I would've expected Skywalker to use powerful, if ill-timed, blows, combined with Force attacks (he is the Chosen One with more midiclorians than Midiclorianmart); while Kenobi kept his distance, parried and retreated from every attack, and waited to strike until he could choose the time and place. (The last, at least, sort of happened.)

Am I way off track here? Did anyone else expect Ewan-Obi to end up fighting just like Sir-Alec-Obi, and Hayder to fight like Daver? Should I believe that Obi-wan and Darth Vader were also meant to fight like kendo monkeys on crack, but Lucas didn't have the technology to inject Guinness and Prowse with that much crack? Or his latest rationalization, that cyborg-Vader just wasn't a very good swordfighter and Obi-wan was too old for that game?
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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I think you're right. It is a very lengthy blade twirly show-fight which is fought at a constant frantically high speed. The one thing that doesn't make it boring is the awesome stage were the fighting is set (I was really in awe how beautifully they managed to bring the planet of Mustafaar to life). Actually the part were they just whirl around the blades made me laugh - because it reminded me more of a scene you'd expect in a film like spaceballs.

I missed Vader using his telekinetic abilities. I missed Vader utilizing his force choke. And above all - like you said - I miss the logical next development step in the fighting style of both combatants (I thought we kinda witnessed such a milestone with the Anakin vs. Dooku fight in AOTC). Alas, that was thrown overboard (as was the 'narrowing down' of the number of designs in vehicles and uniforms to take a strong step towards the minimalism of the classic movies).

P.S.: When you compare this swordfight to the Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon vs. Maul fight, you really begin to doubt Nick Gillard really had the same amount of creative freedom in ROTS that he must have had in TPM.
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The real reason for the saber display.

This is all I can think about when I see that stupid "twirl the lightsabers" move from the film. It was pointless and left them both open for attack. What were they trying to do? One-up each other? Try to impress the other with is "mad saber skillz" that the other might just get fed up and leave? Geez.
(love that song though, got it on my mp3 player and everything.)
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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i love that song!
could someone send me HTML of this so I could put it on a my space (yes, folks, im 13-)
thanks-


On another serious note, I always thought that they were doing that because they anticipated eachothers attacks and doged everyone, or somthing like that. I thought they could sense eachothers wings, and thats how they avoided them.
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it was stupid and worst of all there wasnt any suspense in it
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Originally posted by: battlewars
it was stupid and worst of all there wasnt any suspense in it


I must differ.
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Originally posted by: Ell the Ewok
I look at it liek this: If I spin my saber, my enemy has no clue when or where Im gonna stop! And if Obi Wan thinks this then he will have topld anakin it, meaning they would both use it.


Exactly. It's like with Bruce Lee. He developed a fighting style where he would distract his enemies, making them think he was going to use some big fancy move, but instead he gives them a round-house kick in the stomach, knocking them off of their feet. He then kicked and punched and beat them into submission. And Bruce Lee taught Chuck Norris and they both used it, along with all of his "followers" of his fighting style.
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For someone who saw the DVD's extras, the reason Lucas gives for this Light saber spining is that these two heroes have been forged though the same wars, the same circumstances and their technique is similar as twins look like each other. So the pointless spining is the outcome of someone kinda-facing himself.
This resembles of someone trying to play chess against himself: If you try to play a mind game playing for both sides, the game will always be silly and stupid to the other spectators, and the one who wins is the one you intentially choose to give advantage to.
I must say that even if I found this scene stupid at first, this explanation convinced me, and I came to like the whole duel now that I watch it from this angle.
And now, for your feature presentation:
The Classic Re-re-re-release of Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back.
In this version the word "WOOKIE" has been changed to "HAIR CHALLENGED ANIMAL" and the entire cast has been digitally replaced by Ewoks.
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I find that explanation utterly unconvincing. Sword fighting isn't all about parry-riposte-repeat, a lot (most?) of it is about footwork. We saw this in Episode I, when Darth Maul kept on the move, choosing the time and location of his full-on engagement. We saw it in Episode IV, when Obi-wan retreated to the hangar bay in the Death Star hoping for a chance to escape. We saw it in Episode V, when Darth Vader three times (at least!) forced Luke into a position from which he could not fight. We saw it in Episode VI, when Luke used the obstructions and the dead drop in the Emperor's Throne Room to launch a surprise, and nearly fatal, attack on Vader. A lightsaber fight was always fought with the intention of moving from a disadvantageous position to a favorable position.

In contrast, the RotS duel was simply two people trying to murder each other. At the end, a stroke of luck (the Force ) put Obi-wan on the high ground, as he so helpfully told the audience. You know, just in case we missed it. And then Anakin, who is evidently so in tune with Obi-wan's thinking that, you know, neither can hit or even beat/parry the other, leaps at Obi-wan and gets cut to pieces. Because he knew that's exactly what Obi-wan would do, and when you know what your opponent will do, you never try to use that to your advantage.

Merry Christmas, and may the Force be with us, everyone.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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I've actually fought using practise swords. It's tough! It really is about footwork. I was practising with a ninja/akido style. the oriental styles are an extention of the martial arts styles of each culture. The Kung Fu style is very flash and some moves in the chinese style are also. The japenesse style is the most no-nonsense of the styles I know of. The samarii had a very solid approach to swordfights, which was why they were able to disarm and kill a man in one or two moves. The sword fighting you see in the last samarii is actually a mix of chinese and japanesse swordfigting techiques.
I liked Episode I's fights because they were about footwork. Of course they were you had a real fighter doing it. Another good example of sword fighting is seven samarii. great flik. great fights
"Who's scruffy-lookin'?" - Han Solo
"I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself." -sybeman
"You know, putting animals in the microwave is not a good idea. I had to learn that one the hard way." -seanwookie
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Originally posted by: WESHALLPRESERVE
i love that song!
could someone send me HTML of this so I could put it on a my space (yes, folks, im 13-)
thanks-


On another serious note, I always thought that they were doing that because they anticipated eachothers attacks and doged everyone, or somthing like that. I thought they could sense eachothers wings, and thats how they avoided them.

I found the link by looking in the source code with a nifty (lol) feature in Firefox.
http://content.ytmnd.com/content/9/f/9faa742d93f39f7481262a15b850c33c.mp3
.: Revenge of the Jedi 0.83 MS Edition :.
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Hi... I don't mean to step in and make a point about anything since I know nothing about sword fighting outside of movies which often stylize damn near everything to no end.

I'm just going to recap what's been stated for those who don't really peruse every thread they click. Here we go:

Side 1: The sword fighting in RotS isn't realistic.

Side 2: It's a space opera. Give it some slack.

Adam: Bruce Lee's style wasn't stiff and formal, but flexible and able to distract his opponents by being unpredictable, so it kinda makes sense fellas.

Side 1 again: But it's been more realistic before.

Side 2 again: Lucas changed his point of view on it I guess.

Side 1: Yeah, he does do that sometimes, the big lug. But you have to admit that fight was pretty ridiculous with Obi and Ani flipping over each other until the end when suddenly this 'highground' nonsense springs up.

Side 2: *sigh* we have no explanation for that. Here's a cool ytmnd.

Side 1: LOL

Thank you and have a really good holdiay OT.com Watch the holiday special tonight, drunk.
He big in nothing important in good elephant.

"Miss you, I will, Original Trilogy..."

"Your midichlorians are weak, Old man." -Darth Vader 2007 super deluxe extra special dipped in chocolate sauce edition.

http://prequelsstink.ytmnd.com/
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About the saber twirl in RotS:
To me, the saber fanning out and such, seemed like it was made to intimidate the opponent and make them step back, or if they attempted to attack, the spinning saber would probably knock the attacking saber away, and leave them open to attack.
Now when I saw both of them use it at once, my first thought was that it had to be a technique one of them made (probably Obi-Wan), and shared with the other one. I thought the whole point of it was to show that they were extremelly alike as far as knowledge of the saber went, since they were master and apprentice. The fact that they both stopped at the same point in the fan just reemphasized this.
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Originally posted by: Knolly
The fact that they both stopped at the same point in the fan just reemphasized this.
Ah, that's a good point there putting the emphasis on the time they stop doing the twirly thing. Makes more sense to me now.

Alas, I'm still pretty unimpressed by the choreography of the fight. I am impressed by the actors' performance of the choreography, though - I think they did an awesome job (it's a pity George Lucas and Nick Gillard didn't in this case).

To me the best lightsaber fight in the whole hexology remains the Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan vs. Maul fight. The Obi-Wan vs. Anakin fight is exciting because of the events around it (the station melting away and thus putting the combatants in danger). I expected way more dialogue (good dialogue, I might add) during their battle. I prefer any lightsaber fighting scene from the classic trilogy over the RoTS duel.
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cmon guys it was all done for flash no substance like all the PT
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Originally posted by: battlewars
cmon guys it was all done for flash no substance like all the PT
I mostly agree with you on that, but within that kind of strategy we've seen a huge drop in quality when comparing it to TPM and AOTC. A lot of conceptual things were abandoned in ROTS, the space and planetary battles have no understandable plot - it's just toys being pushed together. The swordfight isn't about swordfighting but about two guys just bluntly bashing at each other at incredible speed in front of an impressive battle arena. I was pretty disappointed about that aspect of ROTS.

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Good point on the space battles lacking plot, too. The Battle of Endor clearly has several stages that you can follow from the dialogue and the VFX. The Battle of Coruscant starts in media res, and frankly, I have no idea how it ends. We know the Invisible Hand takes a broadside and crashes, but what's the disposition of the other ships? How does the battle evolve? Why were they engaging at such close ranges? Who were the commanders on both sides? (Grievous was clearly responsible for capturing Palpatine, but I assume he wasn't in tactical control of the fleet.) Endor answered most of these questions and interleaved two other plot threads, to boot. (It's a bit vague on where the Imperial fleet goes after the Death Star is destroyed.) Like the Mustafar duel, the Coruscant engagement was unelegant, uncivilized forces smashing together over a cool backdrop.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: Scruffy
(It's a bit vague on where the Imperial fleet goes after the Death Star is destroyed.)



You know what, I didn't even think of that until now. I bet that the survivors got to transports and got off the moon in much the same way that the emperials got off the Death Star as it was blowing up. Like rats leaving a sinking ship.
As far as the ground troops, I bet that they were all prisoners of war. It's a big moon and the Rebel fleet was still orbiting the moon.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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The whole reason for the sabre fight is, of course, the action and the need to add some drama into the third act of the film, so the fall of Anakin is more... dramatic. It's not a realistic fight and I never expect it to be, it's like kung fu films, it's choreographed for the movie screen, it's not a real, authentic fight.

About the song on "ytmnd": I much prefer the MECO disco version of the Star Wars song!
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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I agree with so many points in this thread but am left with an observation and a question.

Observation: Now that I think about it I would have personally nominated ROTS for an Academy Award IF, as Anakin and Obi did the ridiculous twirly moves, Obi would have just shut down his saber, casually pulled out a pistol and shot Anakin dead.

Question: Who did that version of the Imperial March Rave? I want it! (And yes, I have and love the Meco one as well!)
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Originally posted by: greencapt
I agree with so many points in this thread but am left with an observation and a question.

Observation: Now that I think about it I would have personally nominated ROTS for an Academy Award IF, as Anakin and Obi did the ridiculous twirly moves, Obi would have just shut down his saber, casually pulled out a pistol and shot Anakin dead.


Nah, he might have filmed it that way, but in post prodytion he would have had Anakin shoot first.
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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi

Nah, he might have filmed it that way, but in post prodytion he would have had Anakin shoot first.


AhhahahahHAHAhahahahaaaaaaa!!!!
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And really though I had hoped that that duel, of ALL the duels in the Star Wars series, would have been the ultimate mind-f**k rather than anything close to what got produced.

But hey- we should all just be thankful that there was even lava involved. The way everything else went I'd have not been surprised if GL would have had the final duel on Tatooine or maybe in another Droid Factory somewhere.