STAR WARS: EP IV 2004 REVISITED ADYWAN *1080p HD VERSION NOW IN PRODUCTION — Page 297

Mr Ghostface said:

 

Actually Mr Ghostface has a lot of other things to do besides come here all the time because, as you asked, yes, I work in the industry. Before this goes any further, please let me say that I don't feel a negative criticism demands deeper explanation than a positive. If you feel disrespected, I'm sorry. Insulting you wasn't the intention. But if I can't say I think the blue planet sucked without getting demands to justify myself, then sorry, delusions of grandeur have taken hold. So what if it was a hi-res NASA photograph? When you composited it and did whatever you did to it, it didn't look very good. And while I'm busy not defending my point of view, and my right to criticise, let's all just take a look at how freely we all lambast George Lucas for what he's "done" to our beloved trilogy. I'm sure I don't need to cut and paste negative opinions of the special editions, or indeed Adywan's own feelings which motivated him to make his edits. But that's okay? Despite the fact that he created these movies in the first place, it's then perfectly okay for people to throw harsh criticism at some of his decisions over the special editions. Yet when someone like me criticises further changes made by a fan editor, I'm out of order? That's more than a little hypocritical. Yes, Adywan has put a commendable amount of effort into his work. I think his dedication to it is truly impressive. But that means I can't say some of it doesn't work? Or that some of it is just plain unnecessary? Nonsense.

Star Wars was a moderately budgeted sci-fi flick which happened to do big business. If there are minute discrepancies between the position of R2-D2 in one shot and the next, because of the practicalities of the shoot, who cares? Not very many people. If some scenes don't have music, maybe Lucas and Williams know what they're doing? And so who cares if someone spends hours of their time "correcting" something that never needed correcting?

Way to take the "big picture" approach to deflect any criticism of you postings, after a series of vague, meaningless,  complaints ("Adywan makes poor artistic choices") and innacurate, dismissive attacks ("this edit is nothing special").

As an "industry professional" I would hope you could communicate your critiques at least as well as a well meaning amature, but "it didn't look very good" isn't constructive, useful, or impressive. It's hardly a step above posting "NOOB!!" on a youtube clip. Does "work in the industry" mean you sell popcorn at the Krikorian?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Adywan's work, or the work of any faneditor who wants to communicate on this type of site, is above criticism (the lack of spinning starfields makes me cry) but your tone of superiority and dismissiveness towards Adywan's work is uncalled for, and now this post tossing aside any merit in fan-produced work comes off as sour grapes.

Mr Ghostface, in your response you once again failed to recognise that ANH:R is not a adjustment of Star Wars (1977) but an attempt to provide us with a better version of the so called Special Edition/s.

You also failed to answer my simple request.

If this sort of work is so easy please show us work that you have done that was simple and looks as good (and tell us how you did it while you are at it, that would be helpful).

If you aren't on here to help in anyway why are you here?

If you aren't prepared to back up you claims with hard evidence or your membership on this forum with some useful advice or projects of your own it's perfectly reasonable for us to surmise that you a useless fraudster and should be defenestrated from Castle OT.COM ASAP.

Go on!

Show us what you can do and we will take what you say seriously.

C3PX said:

Bingowings said:

If you aren't on here to help in anyway why are you here?

If you aren't prepared to back up you claims with hard evidence or your membership on this forum with some useful advice or projects of your own it's perfectly reasonable for us to surmise that you a useless fraudster and should be defenestrated from Castle OT.COM ASAP.

 

Perhaps we should be cautious of how high in the air we hold our noses, I have heard of good people drowning from this when a big rain comes along.

I don't think anyone needs to defend their membership here. These boards are open to anyone with a computer and an internet connection. This isn't an exclusive club where you have to make some amazing SW fan edit, or have made suggestions to an editor of one in order to be welcome. If so, then I suppose myself and several other regular members here are not welcomed either.

Mr. Ghostface is quite welcome here, and has absolutely no need to fear being defenestrated from OT.com so long as he doesn't go along breaking any of the forum rules, and so far, he has not, nor has he given us any reason to suspect he might do so in the future.

 

I agree with that accessment of OT.COM as a whole (it was originally a campaign site for getting the unaltered OT presented on DVD but has expanded since to include other projects and general discussion).

However this section is clearly labelled Fan Edits, Preservation Efforts, and Other Fan Projects which implies a bit more than signing up, dropping as yet unsubstantiated claims, uncharitable and incendiary comments and not contributing anything in the way of advice, suggestions or effort.

There are places within and without these forums where general comments can be made, the section heading however underlines the doing side of things. If you look around the majority of people on here are either producing something or helping someone else produce or find something (even if it's just by giving positive support or providing constructive criticism) and that includes yourself C3PX.

Mr Ghostface has (so far) made negative comments about another site, underplayed the effort involved in the creation of and misunderstood the aims of ANH:R, claimed to be able to produce similar results without substantial effort (without proof) and provided little if anything (as yet) of positive worth.

Moderators step in when the rules are broken but when the spirit of a forum is tarnished in this way it's understandable that the reaction will be negative, not because a postee doesn't like every aspect of a particular project because what is being presented in terms of comment is not germane to the purpose of place on which it is posted.

Now if he were to back up what he said with suggestions or illustrations of how it could be done, or proof that effort could be saved by doing something in a different way, that would be helpful, very welcome and in keeping with the function of these particular forums.

C3PX, I appreciate your balanced response greatly. I will always be as balanced as I can, and make no apology for expressing an opinion which others may feel isn't positive enough. Bingowings, I have no intention of justifying further any "negative" criticisms I have made because I don't have to. I'm as entitled to criticise a fan editor's work as I am the work of professionals, as are we all.

Going back to the "big TIE reveal" and why I don't think it's very good...  As I said previously, there is no disputing the work put in, the technical proficiency etc. My criticism was not with the realism of the image - far from it, I thought the model work and lighting was excellent. But the actual framing was dreadful. When ANH:R cuts to the money shot, there are TIE fighters bunched into the frame all over the place; it appears there was little consideration given to the spacial relations of the models. If there was, then it's just poorly design. Yes, the rendering is lovely, I agree, but they just look messy. The pan as the nearest TIE goes by and the rest of the shot are great, but the initial reveal, the key moment of that new shot, is ugly. FX shots can be crammed, they can be chaotic, but they still need to look right in the frame. I don't think the big reveal does. Now, Bingowings, you may consider this opinion to be out of order. Well, I'm sorry if that's how you feel, but I'm entitled to express it.

As for the other things, like the added score. Why add it? First of all, Williams' score for A New Hope is very, very different stylistically to the scores for all the other Star Wars movies, just as Empire's is. Outside of the main theme, the scores for Empire and Jedi are really not compatible with ANH. So putting Duel of the Fates or any other cue behind Ben and Vader's duel just doesn't work. That music doesn't sound anything like the original score for A New Hope. Just as the brooding Emperor theme from Jedi doesn't. I remember many people cursing Lucas for blurring the identities of the original movies with little things like putting the shuttle in Empire, putting Jabba into A New Hope when he doesn't belong there etc. Well, to me, putting the music from other movies into A New Hope is just the same thing. Leave each movie to be its own thing. They were that way for a very long time, and we didn't complain then.

I have nothing against fan edits at all; in fact I find them intriguing. But when I've heard a decade and more of Lucas-bashing for his "meddling", I'd like to think we can avoid making similar (or the same) mistakes in our own work. Some of the responses to my comments seem to imply that I have called Adywan a talentless hack and everything he's done is garbage. Well, I didn't, and it isn't. His colour correction is incredibly good, and yes, a hell of a lot better than the DVDs. Many of his little tweaks - Greedo blinking, Yavin in the background of the battle, cleaned up lasers and sabres, lots of stuff - is brilliant. But is it all good? No. Should we pretend it is?

Bingowings, relax man, the guy is allowed to have an opinion. It's not like he's the only one who doesn't like some of Adywan's choices. 

As the French say: les goûts et les couleurs, ça ne se discute pas.

Mr Ghostface, you should get the purist edition. It still has some of the unnecessary changes, but it's an improvement (imho) :-)

Mr Ghostface said :

I was just pointing out that it's not all that special and some of the praise Adywan gets for it seems to be borne of an ignorance of how much simpler this is to do than a lot of people realise.

How? If you can't back up this claim with an explanation you might as well be saying you can transmute base metals into gold.

Bingowings, I have no intention of justifying further any "negative" criticisms I have made because I don't have to. I'm as entitled to criticise a fan editor's work as I am the work of professionals, as are we all.

Offering constructive criticism is perfectly valid and possibly helpful but claiming to be able to achieve similar results with less effort does require justification if you want your comments to be taken seriously in any way.

If you possess such skills passing them on will assist people in making more projects some of which will be more to your liking.

But when I've heard a decade and more of Lucas-bashing for his "meddling", I'd like to think we can avoid making similar (or the same) mistakes in our own work.

People are critical of George Lucas altering his films in ways that don't sit well with them not just because of the alterations themselves but because he has refused to make available the original films to a high quality and both DVD sets have been presented to us in an inferior way (that was why this site was originally set up).

We are all Star Wars fans, none of us would be here if we weren't appreciative of the good work he has done, most of us have paid money to see these films in various formats over the years.

When both DVD sets are of such low quality it understandable that people are going to be angry with that.

These weren't free fan edits, they were officially produced and distributed by the same company that made and distributed the films and were purchased by the people who provided those companies with the fortunes they currently play with.

Adywan on the other hand created not just this project but a Purist Edition (stripped of much of the changes you don't like) as well as restorations of the theatrical and DVD cuts of the prequels.

Like all of us he is lending his voice to getting a high quality version of the original films released so we can buy them.

That puts what he does, as an amateur (in the true sense of the word) in a totally different place to what Lucas and Lucasfilm has done as large Hollywood concern.

DarthBo said:

Bingowings, relax man, the guy is allowed to have an opinion. It's not like he's the only one who doesn't like some of Adywan's choices.

As the French say: les goûts et les couleurs, ça ne se discute pas.

Mr Ghostface, you should get the purist edition. It still has some of the unnecessary changes, but it's an improvement (imho) :-)

That isn't what I posted against, I myself don't like all of the changes that Adywan made, I also directed Mr Ghostface to the Purist Version.

What I took umbrage with his assertion that people were laying undue praise at Adywan's feet for work which is much simpler than a lot of people realise. 

If you read my earlier replies to his comments they were in a much lighter vein.

The post that follows isn't just an opinion on an edit, it's a arrogant derogation of what almost everyone who posts here is trying to do. While it might be within the rules of the forum what purpose does it serve? What do we learn from it (other than not to take this man's comments seriously)?

Mr Ghostface said :Actually Mr Ghostface has a lot of other things to do besides come here all the time because, as you asked, yes, I work in the industry. Before this goes any further, please let me say that I don't feel a negative criticism demands deeper explanation than a positive. If you feel disrespected, I'm sorry. Insulting you wasn't the intention. But if I can't say I think the blue planet sucked without getting demands to justify myself, then sorry, delusions of grandeur have taken hold. So what if it was a hi-res NASA photograph? When you composited it and did whatever you did to it, it didn't look very good. And while I'm busy not defending my point of view, and my right to criticise, let's all just take a look at how freely we all lambast George Lucas for what he's "done" to our beloved trilogy. I'm sure I don't need to cut and paste negative opinions of the special editions, or indeed Adywan's own feelings which motivated him to make his edits. But that's okay? Despite the fact that he created these movies in the first place, it's then perfectly okay for people to throw harsh criticism at some of his decisions over the special editions. Yet when someone like me criticises further changes made by a fan editor, I'm out of order? That's more than a little hypocritical. Yes, Adywan has put a commendable amount of effort into his work. I think his dedication to it is truly impressive. But that means I can't say some of it doesn't work? Or that some of it is just plain unnecessary? Nonsense.

Star Wars was a moderately budgeted sci-fi flick which happened to do big business. If there are minute discrepancies between the position of R2-D2 in one shot and the next, because of the practicalities of the shoot, who cares? Not very many people. If some scenes don't have music, maybe Lucas and Williams know what they're doing? And so who cares if someone spends hours of their time "correcting" something that never needed correcting?

Ah, well, if he works in the industry he probably has high standards. What Adywan did must be an everyday "simple" job to him. Maybe he's a bit jealous ;-)

I'm sure that by now he understands this wasn't done by a pro but by an average joe (+1 for rhyme). When we see an edit like this, we are amazed because we wouldn't know how to do it ourself. That isn't true for everyone though, so it's understandable some people react differently.

Can't we all just get along? :p

Well, Bingowings, we can go on like that forever. I have no intention of doing so. By all means continue to pick out of my posts whatever allows you to object the loudest, but I'm not engaging in that exchange any further. It's pointless.

I love how you continually ignore the positive things I say about Adywan's edit, of which there are many. Anyway, good luck with that.

By the way, when I said a lot of this stuff is easier to do than a lot of people imagine, I was referring to people who themselves have never tried and therefore are prone to awe. Digital editing is a piece of cake. If you want to argue that it's not, go for it. I edited for years before anyone even thought of a digital timeline, and I think most people who also did will agree that digital editing, once you learn the software, is easy. Yes, Adywan added many more elements, and some of them are excellent. Some of them are not. But the editing part is nothing special, almost anyone can do it if they try.

I do offer sincere apologies if Adywan was offended by my comments. It's nothing personal. If I had no idea who he was (or where he lived hehe) I'd still make the same comments. He's put more effort into his edit(s) than anyone, absolutely. Are all his changes successful? No. Sorry, but they're not. The guy's made a stupendous effort and I'll buy him a beer if I ever get up to his neck of the woods, but I'd happily tell him over that beer that some of his stuff can be improved.

DarthBo:

I'm sure that by now he understands this wasn't done by a pro but by an average joe (+1 for rhyme). When we see an edit like this, we are amazed because we wouldn't know how to do it ourself. That isn't true for everyone though, so it's understandable some people react differently.

Can't we all just get along? :p

Sure we can, and I hope we will. I do understand that most fan edits aren't done by pros, although I'd argue some are almost as proficient. If you haven't ever tried it, honestly, give it a go. Once you learn the basics of digital editing using a timeline, you'll be rubbing your hands...

Thanks guys. Again, I do apologise if I came across as a little aggressive (too sodding busy with work to notice the tone, gah) as I'm really not an aggressive type. As for the other, less balanced responses to my comments, I will never apologise for saying I think someone's work could be better. I will always try to be balanced, and balance does include criticism.

I haven't looked back through all the posts, so I'm not aware of any previous wars of words over Adywan's work.

As for my perspective on fan edits, maybe my work does make me expect too much. I guess that just goes with the turf. But a friend of mine, who is also not a professional editor (and was in touch with Adywan a few times, I believe) has also done some brilliant work. I've tried to get him to post on here, but he's not big on forums. I'll ask him if I can show you some of his matte work. He's done stuff for me, and I've seen some of the stuff he's planning for his own ANH edit and it's really, really nice. I'll see what he says, but he's the shy type.

Anyway... so who here has done some editing and who hasn't? And what do you use?

Erikstormtrooper said:

Mr. Ghostface,

What are your thoughts on the official Special Editions (either the 1997 or 2004 versions)?

Well, now there's a question. I'm almost out of time right now, but I'll elaborate later. Generally speaking, I thought most of the changes to Star Wars were pretty good, but one or two are downright awful. Both CGI Jabbas are dreadful, although the 2004 version is leagues above the 1997 one. That scene adds absolutely nothing to the narrative and should have stayed on the cutting room floor. The reinserted scene with Luke and Biggs was welcome, but seeing as it was damaged there is the dreadful masking near the end with the tech guy walking in front. It should have been kept out, too. The new CGI models were for the most part very nice, but then they look glaringly inconsistent with the traditional model shots that weren't replaced.

Empire, thankfully, had the least done to it. The new CG shots just before and during the Bespin scenes are very nice. The Wampa looks great, too, but I feel the inserted shots break the momentum of the original edit. And again, why replace some but not others? That's just asking for trouble.

As for Jedi, well, I think the original movie is deeply flawed anyway, by far the weakest of the three. So as much as I don't like the changes much (Jedi Rocks!) they don't really spoil my experience of the movie, which I never really liked.

Adywan is absolutely spot on with the issues he has with the colour.

I'll add more later.