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Question about Tarkin

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After all we know about Vader, how long do you think its before Lucas looks at the Tarkin stuff in ANH and cuts it out? Seems to me that Tarkin in control of Vader, but we know that is not true. Any thoughts?
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Cassidy, I don't know what your problem is, but all you've been doing the past couple of days is proving what a big fucking dick you are. It's getting old, and you're not funny. Leave the boards if they bother you so much, or remind you of TFn so much.
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Cassidy, I don't know what your problem is, but all you've been doing the past couple of days is proving what a big fucking dick you are. It's getting old, and you're not funny. Leave the boards if they bother you so much, or remind you of TFn so much.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: TheCassidy
I'm kidding tcb20. Chalk it up to political beareaucracy where everyone thinks they're in control...


Tarkin really was in control. Look at the way he orders Vader around -- he's the boss in ANH. Look at the "Revenge of the Jedi" script -- a Grand Moff outranks Vader (formally, if not in a de facto sense as well). Look at Revenge of the Sith -- Vader is a whiny, depressed widower and a newly-minted Junior Sith, while Tarkin is already a highly-placed member of the Imperial military-political complex. It is apparent from both the canonical films and our evidence of the auteur's intent that Vader is subordinate to Grand Moff Tarkin in ANH.

I think people confuse Vader's stature as a villain with his his role in the Galactic Empire. Just because he was the big bad guy to our heroes doesn't mean he was the big bad guy in the Empire. Granted, the EU sometimes designates him Supreme Commander of the Imperial forces or Dark Side Executor, but

a) his elevation to those ranks probably took place after Yavin, when it was proven that he was smarter than every Moff, General, and Admiral on the Death Star combined,

b) "Supreme Commander" of Imperial military forces may refer only to those forces under central Imperial control, rather than the bulk of Imperial forces which remained under regional control (such as Regional Governor Tarkin's Death Star),

c) the title may not have conferred operational control[1],

d) even a highly-ranked member of the military establishment may have little political clout; Grand Moffs have both.

I like Vader. He was an excellent villain for the "insignificant rebellion," and his star rose with that of the Rebel Alliance. But he never attained the prominence, stature, or authority of Grand Moff Tarkin.

[1] C.f. the highest ranked member of the United States Armed Forces, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He is absent from the operational chain of command, which flows from the National Command Authorities to the Combatant Commanders (analogous to the Emperor and the Regional Governors, respectively).
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Well, in the radio drama, an assistant named Monty (nearly) persuades him to use the Death Star to get a high place in the Empire.
Perhaps Vader was below him merely because of the battlestation?

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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Tarkin was the Commanding Officer of the Death Star. He had the final say of anything that involoved the Death Star, unless the Emperor gave an order. So when Vader was on the Death Star he was out-ranked by Tarkin. However, when Darth Vader was not on the Death Star he answered only to the Emperor, and no one else.


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LOL ^^^ Awesome pic!

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Cassidy, I don't know what your problem is, but all you've been doing the past couple of days is proving what a big fucking dick you are. It's getting old, and you're not funny. Leave the boards if they bother you so much, or remind you of TFn so much.

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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
LOL ^^^ Awesome pic!


Thanks!


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Originally posted by: Marvolo
Tarkin was the Commanding Officer of the Death Star. He had the final say of anything that involoved the Death Star, unless the Emperor gave an order. So when Vader was on the Death Star he was out-ranked by Tarkin. However, when Darth Vader was not on the Death Star he answered only to the Emperor, and no one else.


The relationship between Vader and Palpatine does not confer any particular rank or authority to Vader. If Vader is subordinate to Tarkin on the Death Star because the Death Star belongs to Tarkin, he would also be subordinate to any other Grand Moff/Regional Governor when in that GM/RG's territory. This legal reality is probably why Vader was installed in Death Squadron and given a mandate to operate freely throughout the Empire's regions; after Vader's disastrous losses of the Death Star plans[1] and generally bad behavior, no Grand Moff would dare let him embark on one of their ships.

[1] He lost them, got them back, then lost them again.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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In the Annotated Screenplays, Lucas said he didn't want Vader to be this over-the-top ultra-powerful bad guy, because it would be too easy to do with the powers that he had. Thus, Tarkin was put in authority over him.

Similarly, in the ANH novelization, Vader is one of many Sith, who are as much a servant of the Empire as the Jedi were for the Republic. Palps isn't even a Sith - just a politician who actually became overwhelmed and controlled by the very Empire that he was put in charge of, and became little more than a puppet.

Of course, all this changed much later, but the effects of these remnants remain, thus the questions of relative power between Tarkin and Vader.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: Scruffy
Originally posted by: Marvolo
Tarkin was the Commanding Officer of the Death Star. He had the final say of anything that involoved the Death Star, unless the Emperor gave an order. So when Vader was on the Death Star he was out-ranked by Tarkin. However, when Darth Vader was not on the Death Star he answered only to the Emperor, and no one else.


The relationship between Vader and Palpatine does not confer any particular rank or authority to Vader. If Vader is subordinate to Tarkin on the Death Star because the Death Star belongs to Tarkin, he would also be subordinate to any other Grand Moff/Regional Governor when in that GM/RG's territory. This legal reality is probably why Vader was installed in Death Squadron and given a mandate to operate freely throughout the Empire's regions; after Vader's disastrous losses of the Death Star plans[1] and generally bad behavior, no Grand Moff would dare let him embark on one of their ships.

[1] He lost them, got them back, then lost them again.


I am just going by standard commanding procedure, and what I learned about Tarkin and Vader's relationship in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader.


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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
In the Annotated Screenplays, Lucas said he didn't want Vader to be this over-the-top ultra-powerful bad guy, because it would be too easy to do with the powers that he had. Thus, Tarkin was put in authority over him.

Similarly, in the ANH novelization, Vader is one of many Sith, who are as much a servant of the Empire as the Jedi were for the Republic. Palps isn't even a Sith - just a politician who actually became overwhelmed and controlled by the very Empire that he was put in charge of, and became little more than a puppet.

Of course, all this changed much later, but the effects of these remnants remain, thus the questions of relative power between Tarkin and Vader.


Exactly. His role fit a very standard mold, wherein there is the brain and the brawn: an intelligent evil entity with his muscle to do all the dirty work for him. And that was pretty much the role of Tarkin and Vader in the first movie. The higher-ups don't get as involved with the main characters as the henchman does, so that would be Vader's job. His presence and his actions solidify him more with the audience, like the more involved thugs usually do.

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What I get from the film, without regard to what other authors have added, is that the question of rank doesn't really matter. Lord Vader is not in the chain of command - he's nobility, not military personnel. Tarkin has command of the station, while Vader carries significant political clout. Thus, the two relate as equals. Tarkin is not afraid to get snippy with Vader, even to mildly threaten him. But when he demands that Vader "release him," there is no "yes, sir" in response. Vader replies simply "as you wish," deferring to Tarkin's authority because it pleases him, not because he has to. And he simply declares that he will face Obi-Wan - there is no asking for permission. There are really no formalities between the two of them at all, in fact - because they simply aren't in the same heirarchy.