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Revenge of the sith is the shite and the flies upon it — Page 2

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The bottom line is, with exception of kids, is that anyone who thinks that the PT & ROTJ are better then SW & ESB probably watch movies just for the action and special effects, and are wowed easily. Now there is a base of fans out there who just love a good 2 hour popcorn flick that just wows them in the visual department, and the PT does that.

But for anyone to consciously say that SW & ESB are not the two best SW movies, I almost laugh at them now. There is a debate as to which is better SW or ESB? And I seem them as 1 & 1a, but the rest of the movies from a pure movie perspective are utter shit that have moments that wow a SW fan, but not a movie going fan. Sure ROTJ has the great throne room scenes, but you have to love SW to enjoy it. Sure the duel in TPM is a high octane with the music blaring and the stunts ratchted up, but again, the average movie fan could care less. SW & ESB can appeal to a mainstream audience who is just looking for a great film to watch, the other 4 movies just please some of the SW fan who have kinda found their niche as to what they like. Do you notice the PT fans always rave about ROTJ the most out of the OT? Cause it focuses on Vader more then any other OT movie, and that is the story they like, and that is why they can't take a step back and realize the movie is average, just like the PT movies.
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Some reasons why I enjoy TPM over ROTS. It has the least amount of CGI, it was filmed on regular film stock, and as stated above doesn't reach farther than it should. Yeah, I hated Anikan as a 9 year old, and Jar-Jar, but I can at least watch some of TPM. ROTS is another story. Anikan's turn was a complete failure, Mace vs. Sidious is laughably one of the worst choreographed duels in the entire saga, Palpatines exressions during the duel are so stupid, the writting is unemotionally stimulating, the duel between Anikan and Obi-Wan is a CGI fest and nothing more, Grievous is a glorified chihuahua and a waste of screen time, that lizard thing Obi-Wan rides on to chase Grievous makes one squawk to many. The list could be even bigger, but you get the idea.


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Originally posted by: Nobody
In a way, I think you just described why I dislike the second two films a lot more, especially Sith. They include/attempt a lot more meaty ideas... and fail, to varying degrees of awfulness, at all of them - ESPECIALLY the most important ones. That, to me, makes them vastly more painful to watch. They put on parade exactly how terrible at storytelling they are. And many of those moments are classic plot points (a checklist of things we have been waiting for, as an earlier poster put it), which I would much rather not see at all, than see butchered. The Phantom Menace, meanwhile, aims lower, and comes out cleaner for it. It might not be better made, or have more "artistic" value to it, but at least it's not pretentious.


Like I said, ROTS is not without its faults... the dialogue is still terrible in parts, Anakin's turn to the dark side occurs too quickly, and some scenes/characters are there purely to appease the fans and give them eye candy (e.g., Chewbacca, Kashyyyk). However, as a story it's the best conceived of the PT. That's not to say it was delivered well on screen (although I think it showcases some of the best performances in the PT), but it is a movie that can be enjoyed by people outside of the Star Wars fan base.

That being said, I understand what you're saying about The Phantom Menace. In a sick, weird, twisted, diabolical way it was the closest movie to Star Wars (ANH) in the entire PT: light-hearted, adventure-filled, innocent fun.

I will also say this for TPM: when I left the theatre after seeing it for the first time, all I could think about was buying a lightsaber. I guess it must've done something right

“It’s a lot of fun… it’s a lot of fun to watch Star Wars.” – Bill Moyers

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You know, there are some people - such as myself - that feel a nostalgia towards ROTJ because it was the first they saw (my first SW experience was the SE theater release). I just wanted to defend ROTJ; it really doesn't deserve hate it gets.
And, being 5 at the time, I absolutely LOVED The Phantom Menace. It is definitely as corellian said: light-hearted, adventure-filled, innocent fun.
I'm not saying ROTJ/TPM was better than ESB (although when it comes to the original I have trouble deciding...), but my opinion remains: TPM and ROTJ were *NOT* weak movies.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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Originally posted by: CO
The bottom line is, with exception of kids, is that anyone who thinks that the PT & ROTJ are better then SW & ESB probably watch movies just for the action and special effects, and are wowed easily. Now there is a base of fans out there who just love a good 2 hour popcorn flick that just wows them in the visual department, and the PT does that.

But for anyone to consciously say that SW & ESB are not the two best SW movies, I almost laugh at them now. There is a debate as to which is better SW or ESB? And I seem them as 1 & 1a, but the rest of the movies from a pure movie perspective are utter shit that have moments that wow a SW fan, but not a movie going fan. Sure ROTJ has the great throne room scenes, but you have to love SW to enjoy it. Sure the duel in TPM is a high octane with the music blaring and the stunts ratchted up, but again, the average movie fan could care less. SW & ESB can appeal to a mainstream audience who is just looking for a great film to watch, the other 4 movies just please some of the SW fan who have kinda found their niche as to what they like. Do you notice the PT fans always rave about ROTJ the most out of the OT? Cause it focuses on Vader more then any other OT movie, and that is the story they like, and that is why they can't take a step back and realize the movie is average, just like the PT movies.


I totally agree. I think the entire 6-part Star Wars saga is fine for what it is: a series of entertaining, immersive fantasy films that can be enjoyed by people of various ages. However, ANH and ESB go beyond that and are examples of truly good cinema. I think that's an important differentiation people have to make.

That being said, I think it's equally important to take a step back from the nitpicking sometimes and remember what one reviewer (whom I believe appears on the 2004 OT bonus disc) said, which was: "... and it's just fun... It's fun watching Star Wars."

“It’s a lot of fun… it’s a lot of fun to watch Star Wars.” – Bill Moyers

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Let me also jump in to the defense of Jedi and point out that, unlike the Gungans, a few Ewoks are killed onscreen, and are even given a moment to be mourned over. They may still be saccharin, merchandisable teddy bears, but at least the movie took what was going on seriously. That kind of honesty is what keeps Jedi several notches over the prequels. And, unlike his turn to the dark side, Vader's turn back to the good side is actually a pretty damn good scene.

I guess I could say the big difference between Jedi and the prequels is that, while Jedi was uneven, and yeah - teddy bears - the movie pulled through at the most pivotal moments. The prequels have their redeemable qualities, I suppose, but the key scenes are the worst scenes. You could even argue for an inverse ratio, where the more important the scene, the worse it is, with Anakin's Fall - the entire reason all three movies were made in the first place - the most colossal misfire of them all. I mean, seriously, if you're going to put all that time, effort, and money into a story about Vader's turn to the Dark Side, only to totally phone-in the moment when it actually happens... you might as well have turned the whole production over to Rankin-Bass. Really - if the rest of the film had been Shakespeare, that one scene would still ruin the entire trilogy.
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Guys, when I bury ROTJ, I am only saying that in the context of a 'great' movie, which it is isn't. I love ROTJ, and have seen it a thousand times, but if it were the first movie in the series, I would have seen it once and moved on, and that is the point of being a great movie.

Great movies inspire you to just watch it anytime, cause it is.......great! ROTJ completes the story, so in a sense you enjoy it cause it wraps up a great trilogy, so it is entertaining, enjoyable, but as a movie, it really isn't that great, when you define the term 'great' film. That is my point of the PT movies, they aren't great films either, but for many fans of the saga, they complete the story, so they are just as entertaining as ROTJ, but as pure movies, they are nowhere near the quality of SW & ESB.
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I will also defend ROTJ by saying that the ewoks have never really bothered me. I think they are cool. However, I do have a problem with the idea that their wooden arrows can pierce the stormtrooper's armor. Other than that, the ewoks are fine by me. But the one thing that stops me from enjoying ROTJ more than I do is not the ewoks, it is Jabba's palace. Something about those scenes in Jabba's palace have always bothered me. They just seem like something from another story and don't connect with the rest of the overall story very well.


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I agree with everybody in the last few posts.

Return of the Jedi is not a great film on the level of Star Wars or Empire, but I still think it has its own greatness on a smaller, more compromised scale. It could stand on its own in many ways, apart from the rest of trilogy, and in the trilogy its a great ending. Its not the best ending the trilogy could have had, but it functions. At the very least it should never be lumped in with the quality we got in the prequels.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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In fairness to Lucas, sequels are always inferior, so in that respect, we should all be grateful to the quality of ESB. Think about almost EVERY movie series, the movies usually get worse and worse, and I think in that context that is what seperates the OT from everything else. ROTJ is not great compared to SW & ESB, but compared to Superman III, Jurassic Park III, Matrix Revolutions, Back to the Future III, Terminator 3, Godfather III, Alien 3, it is a damn good movie.

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Personally, I think the two Back to the Future sequels manage to maintain the quality of the first one. But aside from that, I certainly agree that we are very lucky that ESB is as good as it is. That was pretty much the idiom that Lucas had at the time: ESB had to be good in order for Star Wars to survive. If it hadn't been, it would just be Star Wars with a few crappy sequels. Probably no prequels at all.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Gaffer, not to get off topic, the BTTF sequels are good, but they don't have the magic the original had, and I guess it is hard to explain. The original BTTF was just about a kid learning about his parents growing up while he was stuck back in time, so in a weird sense, the time travel is the side story of the movie. What makes the Original great is that it makes everyone in the audience whether it be a parent of their kids reassess where they were at that time in their lives? Nobody pictures their parents partying and drinking in high school, because they are your parents! And some parents are naive to think that their kids would do the same because.....they're your kids! The great irony about the Original BTTF is that nothing changes between generations, and that your actions do have consequences, hence the changed ending in the new life Marty walks into after he gets back. I guess this is the reason those films back in the 70's/80's were great, cause they said something like this in the movie, and as a kid you may not get it, but years later this is why they stay great.
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Originally posted by: Marvolo
Something about those scenes in Jabba's palace have always bothered me. They just seem like something from another story and don't connect with the rest of the overall story very well.

I think that's exactly right. Jedi's biggest problem, as I said elsewhere, is that it can't do it's own thing until it's taken care of the shopping list of other requirements that got dumped on it. All trilogies suffer from that in their third act - even Lord of the Rings. The Jabba's palace stuff feels out of place, because it's really the ending of Empire Strikes Back. Only once Han is back again, and Luke has filled his promise to Yoda, can we get on with the real story, and by that point we've already wasted the better part of an hour.

I like the third part of Back to the Future. The first one is my favorite, and it's the classic, but III tried its best to fight that shopping list by taking the story in a totally wild direction. Kept it fresh, and gave the series a real third act, instead of just a movie-length ending. 'A' for effort.
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Originally posted by: CO
Gaffer, not to get off topic, the BTTF sequels are good, but they don't have the magic the original had, and I guess it is hard to explain. The original BTTF was just about a kid learning about his parents growing up while he was stuck back in time, so in a weird sense, the time travel is the side story of the movie. What makes the Original great is that it makes everyone in the audience whether it be a parent of their kids reassess where they were at that time in their lives? Nobody pictures their parents partying and drinking in high school, because they are your parents! And some parents are naive to think that their kids would do the same because.....they're your kids! The great irony about the Original BTTF is that nothing changes between generations, and that your actions do have consequences, hence the changed ending in the new life Marty walks into after he gets back. I guess this is the reason those films back in the 70's/80's were great, cause they said something like this in the movie, and as a kid you may not get it, but years later this is why they stay great.


Honestly, I was going to say exactly that, but I didn't want to get too far off-topic, so I just stayed general. Yeah, the magic of the first one was amazing, and only as I got older did I realize that, and that's because I saw BTTF2 first. Therefore, I saw it in trilogy style. Of course, the "To Be Continued..." on the original VHS versions did little to keep me from thinking it was the first part of a time-traveling epic. It was only when the DVDs came out, and I realized it was just a single movie originally that I began to see and appreciate the original story for what it was. But the reason I didn't say this before was because I was trying to say that I think that all three movies are exceptionally strong. None of them fail to capture my interest or provide me with a compelling plot or characters. It's just that the sequels have a different story than the original. But, honestly, in that sense it's not much different from the Star Wars trilogy except that I feel the BTTF movies manage to maintain the same level of quality while ROTJ dips just a little bit.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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My topic has gone to the future!

http://www.apocprod.com/images/Props/grayssportsalmanac.jpg

Back to the future 2 has always been my favorite hah. They're all awesome though, quite like the original SW trilogy.

edit: And i LIKED the Jabba scenes!
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Co, don't take this the wrong way, but do you have a sequel phobia?


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Originally posted by: generalfrevious
Maybe this article helps explain why ROTS is so bad:
Text


I still love his take on it, especially... "I can't shut my gigantic fucking mouth."

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1113/userbar381851ln2.gif
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8653/userbar381853dp6.gif
Super Mario Bros. - The Wicked Star Story
"Ah, the proverbial sad sack with a wasted wish."
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Originally posted by: Marvolo Co, don't take this the wrong way, but do you have a sequel phobia?


In some ways I do because I have seen so many sequels, and I believe ESB is the only sequel to ever match the original, and that goes for Aliens & Godfather II also. Don't get me wrong there are good sequels, but for replay value they just don't have 'it' that the originals always have. What makes a great movie to me is that when you are watching it, the movie has pure magic from start to end, and sequels rarely have that, cause I believe it is impossible to conjure up magic everytime you shoot a movie.

I am old enough to let alot of these movies series sink in and after a good 10-15 years, the original just stand out now as SO much better, and the sequels just seem inferior now, or to me a waste of time, cause in some ways it denegrates the original work. I don't get jazzed for sequels anymore, cause I learned my lesson from years past. I was hyped for the PT, hyped for BTTF sequels, hyped for Temple of Doom, and hyped for The Terminator sequels, and though they all range from bad to very good sequels, I really don't revisit them years later unless they are on cable and I am channel surfing. But when it comes to popping in a DVD, I can watch BTTF, SW, ESB, Raiders, Jaws endlessly cause they have that magic everytime you watch them.


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Originally posted by: CO
...I really don't revisit them years later unless they are on cable and I am channel surfing. But when it comes to popping in a DVD, I can watch BTTF, SW, ESB, Raiders, Jaws endlessly cause they have that magic everytime you watch them.


I'm on board with that and have actually taken it one step further. I don't watch sequels to films I really love. I don't want any unnecessary images in my head, any unnecessary story. I learned my lesson with Empire and Return. I didn't want to know any more - I didn't want any blanks filled in - any questions answered. They tarnished the magic and adventure or Star Wars for me. It took me years to purge them from my psyche.

Here are some of my top movies (that had sequels) and how I've handled them. Some I learned my lesson the hard way, others were never even a consideration.

Star Wars - Saw Empire and Return, was disappointed. Saw TPM and was sickened. Haven’t seen the last two films or any SE versions of the OT.

Jaws – sequels aren’t an option.

Raiders Of The Lost Ark – saw both sequels. They’re OK, but I won’t bother with them in the future unless they're on cable late at night. I'll most likely go see the next one unless I get a thorough review and find out it's crap.

Alien – sequels aren’t an option.

Back To The Future – saw part of the second one, it sucked. Won’t bother with three.

Planet Of The Apes – saw most of the second one, it sucked. Won’t bother with the others.

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Originally posted by: Marvolo
Co, don't take this the wrong way, but do you have a sequel phobia?

I'm patiently awaiting "Charlotte's Web 2: Revenge of the Spiders." More action, more FX, and a plot twist that will rival The Sixth Sense: Fern is actually Templeton's daughter.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Thanks for the spoiler ADM! And I was looking forward to seeing that one too! Next time please warn first.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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POTC's sequel DMC is good and by reading the new 100 page script of AWE I can say that it is even better than DMC, and closer to the original in style and pacing.


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Originally posted by: Marvolo
POTC's sequel DMC is good and by reading the new 100 page script of AWE I can say that it is even better than DMC, and closer to the original in style and pacing.


Whoa! Having not a clue what POTC, DMA, AWE are I didn't get much out of that last post. But I did get that AWE is more like POTC than DMC was.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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I agree with CO and those of you who think sequels ruin movies... most often they do. Hollywood really does have the bad habit of milking a good idea for as long as it can, then when the well's dry it moves on and leaves a dried up, dead concept in its wake.

However, it's worth remembering that the Star Wars movies were meant to be regarded as individual installments in a much larger story. The whole point of the opening crawl in ANH was to recreate the experience of going to a Saturday morning matinee and being brought up to speed on what happened last week in your favourite serial. As such, it's fair to say some of the movies are better than others (just as someone can say a certain chapter in a novel is better or worse than another chapter), but in the end all the movies make up the grander narrative that is Star Wars.

I must say, though, that there's something to be said for leaving some "story" out of the story to create that little bit of mystery (not unlike Tolkien hinting at the historic events of Middle Earth in LOTR, but not elaborating upon the point). In that sense, it was kind of fun not knowing exactly what preceded ANH; it was fun imagining the events for yourself.


“It’s a lot of fun… it’s a lot of fun to watch Star Wars.” – Bill Moyers

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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
Originally posted by: Marvolo
Co, don't take this the wrong way, but do you have a sequel phobia?

I'm patiently awaiting "Charlotte's Web 2: Revenge of the Spiders." More action, more FX, and a plot twist that will rival The Sixth Sense: Fern is actually Templeton's daughter.


Actually, I did see a sequel to Charlotte's Web on Cartoon Network recently. It starred Wilbur and Charlotte's daughters. Bleh. It was all modernized and bore little resemblance to the cartoon movie upon which it was based.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.