Revenge Of The Cut - Star Wars: Revenge Of The Sith (* unfinished project *) — Page 4

I must say, the ideas are good, but the execution is weak.  Too many quick cuts, too much isn't seen, etc.  I get that you don't have much to work with, it's just... I don't know.  I want to like it, your sense of humor is great, the execution is just not as good as it should be.

When I saw ROTS this was the bit I cringed at the most, the lightning caused his disfigurement?? what??

I really think this is an excellent cut. The mirrored telepathy voice really helps the stupid quick turnaround of Anakin's loyalties (helps!!, this is the part in the movie that I can't swallow, no mater what editing can be done) 

Its a pity that there was no way to restore Palps face to his pleasant face when he declares himself Emperor, that would show how deceitful he really is... that he can disguise how rotten he is on the inside.....bit like Tony Blair.

J

rpvee said:

Too many quick cuts (...) too much isn't seen (...)the execution is just not as good as it should be.

Too much isn't seen ? but it's so ugly !  what can we do ? 

There are "jumpy cut" in my part 3 but I think there is a good flow here.

 Maybe You are really too much used with the original cut. You did not take the time to "digest" the new rhythm. Of course everything go faster, I cut a lot of things, so inevitably you feel a lack...but I think you just focus on it, and not on the essential :

Sidious is no more a gay, the Jedi are no more stupid bitches, no more stupids dialogues and too long hesitations (etc...) and there is now intensity when Sidious unleashed the dark side.

I'm really interested to know what you think about the original sequence. if you find my work "weak", what words do you use to qualify the work of Lucas and his team on this ?

 There are so few good things in the original sequence that it was really a challenge. For you, my execution is weak...no problem, but what do you suggest ? keeping exactly the same ideas and the same content I selected, show me the way to a "strong execution" !

I worked so long on this sequence, I tried so many things... I can say, without pretension, that it will be hard to do a better cut. It's not a perfect cut of course...but it respects Star Wars,  it do not destroy everything...

 Thanks all for your comments ! I'm really glad you like it.  Vaderios I need this sequence with Windu alone, awesome ! where can I find this ?

Jacobss said :

I'm sure the bad moments of prequel trilogy had nothing to do with actors. I think it is all fault of Lucas. The actors never knew what they have to act. And no matter what they did, Lucas was for sure always satisfied with their performace.

it's quite true

I loved the fast paced cuts myself, though I can see what rpvee means somewhat. It seems to jump forward in time too much at certain points during the Mace/Palps duel. Almost like a montage. I'm sure some creative editing, taking note of stances and saber positions could make it flow more seamlessly.

Loved what you've done with the music and sound!

brash_stryker said:

during the Mace/Palps duel. Almost like a montage.

yes this is the part that suffers most..but I work frame by frame, taking care of their position...

I will make tomorow a video to show that there is many jumpy cut in the original version and more shocking...but we do not pay attention because it's precisely the original cut !

Thank you brash, glad u like the sound edit ! (Vaderios, I will work hard on the lightsabers sounds  ; ) )

The Cutter said:

rpvee said:

Too many quick cuts (...) too much isn't seen (...)the execution is just not as good as it should be.

Too much isn't seen ? but it's so ugly !  what can we do ? 

There are "jumpy cut" in my part 3 but I think there is a good flow here.

 Maybe You are really too much used with the original cut. You did not take the time to "digest" the new rhythm. Of course everything go faster, I cut a lot of things, so inevitably you feel a lack...but I think you just focus on it, and not on the essential :

Sidious is no more a gay, the Jedi are no more stupid bitches, no more stupids dialogues and too long hesitations (etc...) and there is now intensity when Sidious unleashed the dark side.

I'm really interested to know what you think about the original sequence. if you find my work "weak", what words do you use to qualify the work of Lucas and his team on this ?

 There are so few good things in the original sequence that it was really a challenge. For you, my execution is weak...no problem, but what do you suggest ? keeping exactly the same ideas and the same content I selected, show me the way to a "strong execution" !

I worked so long on this sequence, I tried so many things... I can say, without pretension, that it will be hard to do a better cut. It's not a perfect cut of course...but it respects Star Wars,  it do not destroy everything...

First of all, as far as we know, Sidious was never "gay".  Don't use that word that way, and also words like "bitch" and what-not.  If you want your edit to be taken seriously, drop the high school vocabulary.

Now, obviously the original sequence is weak in many ways, mainly because of what you stated.  But your solution seems to be to simply cut out all of the bad parts and then moves scenes around between the cuts to try to make them flow.  But, for example, Mace tells Anakin to stay, and then literally in the next shot he's gone and taking off.  I know you said that it's an editing technique (your exact words being "in a cut, all the sequences do not systematically occur in real time"), but this kind of editing only works in certain ways.  For example, the quick cuts during the twenty-second Mace/Palpatine duel where they move all around the room - it works there because it is a fast and intense scene.  When it's a guy just leaving somewhere, it's fast and abrupt and it doesn't work or make any sense - the technique doesn't carry over in such a calm scene.

And then there are some cuts that really just do not work.  For example, Mace kicking Palpatine.  In one cut, Mace goes from one position to suddenly being able to kick Palpatine, and then a WAY to quick cut over to Anakin.

You really, I guess, just need to work on your sense of timing.  A lot of the cuts are just really, really rough.

bobgarcia74 said:

This edit will be a great version for people who've seen and know the movies. But I feel that anyone watching this version without having first watched the original would be like. "Ok, wait a second, well the hell is going on? I cant keep up.

 

Thanks bob for your comment !

it's interesting that you mention that because I showed two years ago my edit to my brother (who has never seen the original version). He has understood everything without great difficulty. We must admit that it's not a very complex movie. Anyway the priority of my edit is to respect the spirit, the atmosphere of Star Wars.

As I already said I prefer something short than something crazy, ugly or stupid...something a little too short doesn't affect me...something ugly or stupid spoil my fun.

bobgarcia74 said

Palaptine and Maces saber fight is 13 seconds long on screen. And The time from when Anakin walks into the room to him cutting off Maces hand runs around 24 seconds. That is really fast

Yes, the duel Palpatine/Mace is really short...You have done something really interesting in your edit with light on/off...it hides bad CGI etc but I really can't let three Jedi masters die like this...

But concerning Anakin's fall, I think the precipitation here is a good thing. There was already a dead time in the Council Chamber...Anakin knows now what he want. In the original cut Windu take too much time, too much momentum..and the infamous : "he is the traitor, no he is the traitor, I have the power to save...you must choose etc"

Precipitation is a perfect condition for mistake..no time to think. My cut supports this feeling. it Insist on the fact that Anakin is now in a whirlpool, he control no more his destiny.

First of all, as far as we know, Sidious was never "gay".  Don't use that word that way, and also words like "bitch" and what-not.  If you want your edit to be taken seriously, drop the high school vocabulary.

I am french, not really good in english..so I do what I can...I am sure you have understand what I mean by : gay and bitch. I think it fits perfectly what Lucas have done with this.

But your solution seems to be to simply cut out all of the bad parts and then moves scenes around between the cuts to try to make them flow

Absolutely not, it's not done so simply. First of all I think about the sense of all, if I'm going to need stuff from other sequences etc

But, for example, Mace tells Anakin to stay, and then literally in the next shot he's gone and taking off.  I know you said that it's an editing technique (your exact words being "in a cut, all the sequences do not systematically occur in real time"), but this kind of editing only works in certain ways.

You're right, but isn't this a minor sequence ? a detail ? I can easly cut before Mace takeoff...I just let this because I like Anakin "stance" at this moment.

For example, Mace kicking Palpatine.  In one cut, Mace goes from one position to suddenly being able to kick Palpatine, and then a WAY to quick cut over to Anakin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky60ZJsjjTI

We simply don't have the same priority : I am trying to give more soul to a sequence, to the entire movie, and you focus only on details. When I am talking about the sense... you are talking about my "rough cut" (and speaking of this, I do not agree !)

It's hard to feel the "sense" of a movie when there are a lot of rough cuts.  Your slow-motion in that last video you just posted only shows it more.  For example, right before Mace kicks Palpatine, he is twirling his saber in his right hand.  In the next shot, it's suddenly not being twirled and is over in his left hand.  He kicks Palpatine, and in the next shot, Palpatine is already half-way across the air.  Rough?  Yes.

And regarding the cuts in the scene of Mace telling Anakin to stay, it's not a matter of it being a minor sequence, it's just an example of similar cuts in the videos you've posted so far.

Your ideas are great and very creative.  I applaud you for them.  It's just their execution that is rough and understandably difficult.

rpvee said:

It's hard to feel the "sense" of a movie when there are a lot of rough cuts. 

You are talking like all of "my movie" is roughly cut...There is sometimes this problem...but only in critical sequences...it doesn't affect the "sense" of the film.
This is not because at few moments, some little things go quick that the film becomes incomprehensible.

I very well understood what you are talking about but I am trying to explain that there are more shocking rough cut than mine in the original movie itself.
Look again at this example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky60ZJsjjTI

Mace turn twice on himself (180 %) ! it's really really rough...
I work frame by frame, nothing is left randomly...you said earlier : "you really, I guess, just need to work on your sense of timing.  A lot of the cuts are just really, really rough" but it's irrevelant given that I work with a very very limited stuff.
Give me a camera, let me shoot this sequence from the beginning with the actors and then we can talk about my sense of timing.

I will show you someday my edit on the Lord of the rings trilogy...and you will see that there is absolutly not this kind of problems...simply because there are less things to change...much more good stuff. The edit is easier.

Unfortunately this is not possible here, ROTS need a radical cut. I can easly let things go slower but it meant keeping ugly things.

 I just find you a little unfair regarding the limited stuff I am working with. You judge me on things that can't be improved (except a few fancy cuts, but here too, I'm not blind, I know why I am doing this..and it's not really important, It doesn't ruin the movie)

In front of two defects, I always choose the slightest. This is a good example. What is the worse : a little fast kick or the ridiculous Palpatine CGI face ? and see him be hit like in very bad kung-fu movie and crawling on the floor like a dog (not a gay ;) ) ? OMG...we are talking about the Emperor ! seeing him in a ridiculous way is much more worst than my "quick kick".

You focus : " it's too rough !" ok  ok...but look what it was ! you should always judge my cuts compared to the original...and you will see that there is always a good reason.

I'm not blind, I know perfectly every frame of this movie and and if certain things could be extended, I will do it with pleasure.

 Some of my cuts are quick, not because I like this or because I don't have sens of timing...but only because there is no other way. That why in my videos I have create the "cutting process part", to show how much things I decided to remove are ridiculous.

in this battle : ugly/stupid VS shorter - I will always choose "shorter".

So it's a little useless to say then : "it's too short, it's rough "...I already know that...but keep in mind that the purpose here is not to propose a perfect cut but to avoid the disaster.

because what Lucas did  is really a disaster...

cutnshut said:

I think you've done the best that anyone could ask for with this scene  - i've said before i don't mind quick cuts - a lot of movies have them. But in this case you have to work with limited footage and there really isnt that much greatness to begin with - so yeah, make it as painless as possible

 

 

Thank you for your comment

you have defined here, in a clear and short way, exactly what I want to express  : MAKE IT AS PAINLESS AS POSSIBLE

it is now my new slogan !

Vaderios, very interesting video (excepted the music), I love this kind of interview.

I am a professional composer and sometime I have to handle also the sound design...so I'm passionate about everything related to sound

rpve, here is another private video I made for you :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inhQoCq2b1o

I really spend a lot of time to find the good compromise on every sequences.

I think the good question should not be : " isn't this a bit too fast? Rough?"
but " is it better than the original cut ?"

remain focused only on the perfection of the flow is a luxury we can not afford here (specialy on this hard sequence) because the low quality of the original stuff does not allow flexibility.

The editing in that sequence is fine. No problem at all with it IMO.

I get what you're saying, as I previously stated.  And I know you're doing your best.  But just saying "Well the original has worse cuts!" does not make your cuts better.  Maybe because I edit things myself, I'm seeing things more than others here, but I know there are other editors here, too, so I don't know... maybe if I could make a video pointing things out in this scene of yours like you've done, I could explain it better.

rpvee said:

I get what you're saying, as I previously stated.  And I know you're doing your best.  But just saying "Well the original has worse cuts!" does not make your cuts better.  Maybe because I edit things myself, I'm seeing things more than others here, but I know there are other editors here, too, so I don't know... maybe if I could make a video pointing things out in this scene of yours like you've done, I could explain it better.

The prequels are so full of horrible crap that you've either got to compromise  and leave some of it in even though you hate it, or go all out and cut it all and try to do the best you can with what you have left. The latter is my philosophy in my editing, and I applaud The Cutter for having the same stance. His is a vast improvement even though it may not (and can't possibly, with the footage available) be perfect, and any improvements you might recommend would probably compromise his philosophy by adding horrible stuff back in.

rpvee said:

 But just saying "Well the original has worse cuts!" does not make your cuts better.

I only say that to show you that it's not dramatical, it doesn't destroy the film...on the contrary, the stuff I removed ruin the movie

I apologize for commenting without reading much of the thread.  I just wanted to say that I watched the mace/palps duel clip and I sort of agree with rpvee.  I like fanedits that try to be seamless, as if the fanedit is the actual original.  As such, I found the cuts a little distracting.

If you know who I am, you know that I've seen more PT edits than perhaps 90% of the community.  I've seen plenty of edits that are able to remove the crap while maintaining a reasonably smooth flow.  So I know it is possible.

Also should mention there are a few places where you've replaced dialogue but it is obvious from mouth motion that it has been replaced.

Having said that, this is your edit and you should strive to make it as radical as you see fit.  There's nothing wrong with doing things as rough as you want in order to get your version of the movie, it just won't be some people's cup of tea (mine included).

Good luck with the edit.  I do hope you are able to produce something you truly enjoy.