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Return of the Jedi - was it what it was meant to be?

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The more I think about it, I don't believe Lucas intended to make ROTJ the way he did when he was setting it up in ESB. The whole concept of there being 'another' - I don't believe it was going to be Leia originally. This would help to explain all the incest-esque occurences pre-ROTJ. I believe that either Luke was going to find another sibling, or another Force-adept, or that perhaps Luke would fail, and it would be left to this 'Other' to either help Luke, or succeed where he failed.

In short, I think Lucas wanted to end the Trilogy, instead of creating more episodes in his set of 'serials'. He tied up so many loose ends that could have been developed further:

- making Leia the 'Other'.
- making Leia Luke's sister, instead of having Han die and their relationship develop.
- having Yoda die, instead of furthering his training
- Vader's plan to overthrow the Emperor was not developed
- Lando just being forgiven without really redeeming himself with some valiant deed beforehand (just a casual reference to the stunt he pulled at the Battle of Tanaab) - perhaps having him sacrifice himself in a warrior's death for atonement?
- Of course, we all know that the Ewoks were used instead of the Wookies

And of course the Second Death Star was a bit of a cop-out, but I have a feeling that GL always intended to put the Death Star at the end of the story - and that he brought it forward to ANH because he had no guarantee of any sequels.

Was it ever meant to be a Trilogy, or was there meant to be more? What do you guys think?
MTFBWY. Always.

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Explain the force connection between Luke & Leia in 'Empire' then.
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I have always thought the original original concept for ROTJ an Imperial City was to appear but due to effects limitations etc it had be Death Star 2 and T'Bones SWU site shows early concept drawings for Imperial City, Vader's Home and The Emperors Throne Room

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Originally posted by: TheCassidy
Explain the force connection between Luke & Leia in 'Empire' then.
Since when does a jedi need a connection with an individual to be able to sense them or reach out to them telepathically?

War does not make one great.

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Originally posted by: TheCassidy
Explain the force connection between Luke & Leia in 'Empire' then.


It could have been developed via a romantic bond later on, or at least a friendship bond. What were Luke's options? The wookie, two droids, Lando? Leia was the only viable candidate for him to communicate with via the Force at that time. Doesn't mean it wasn't significant, but it also doesn't mean that it had to be a brother-sister significance...
MTFBWY. Always.

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I enjoy ROTJ to this day, though I'm a little offset by the scenes where Carrie Fisher looks really out of it and sports what looks like smeared eye liner. There are also scenes where it pains me to admit that the normally reliable Harrison Ford looks a bit bored (his usual intesity rises up more during the action sequences).
I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an Obi-Wan to go.

Red heads ROCK. Blondes do not rock. Nuff said.

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Also, a bit off topic, but refresh my memory: why does Jabba's sail barge blow up?

And after you've answered that question, read the first post and tell me what your thoughts are, I'm really interested to know...
MTFBWY. Always.

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Luke set the barge's gun to fire at the deck. Dunno why one shot blew the whole thing up, but there you go.

You can take this with a grain of salt, but Kurtz claims he saw the plans that Lucas had set up for 9 episodes, with the Emperor being met and killed in Ep 9. I had an article about that. I'll see if I can find it.

Ok, I found it. This is from the NJ Star Ledger Friday, May 20th. This is only an excerpt--a long one...:

The director (Lucas) denies ever stating that he'd make Ep 7-9, blaming the media for reporting rumors as fact in the early days of "Star Wars."

He said the hype was "created by you guys, not by me," while speaking to journalists during press day earlier this month at his Skywalker Ranch headquarters in Marin County, CA.

Technically, he never prmised 9 movies, but the news stories of Luke redux weren't pure fiction.

"We made an announcement to the press, 'There's enough material for 3 trilogies,'" says Kurtz. "It wasn't 9 films were going to be made. It was to give you an idea of how much material was there."

Before Lucas wrote the script for "Star Wars", he put together a novel-length treatment tracing the intergalactic exploits of Skywalker and son. In the blueprint, the plot spanned beyond Luke's young adult years to portray him as an elder Jedi.

"He went on to become the master and pass on his training to someone else," Kurtz says.

Kurtz adds that at one point, there was even talk of expanding the chronicle to 12 chapters.

"There were a lot of things bandied about. There were people who wanted to do novels, tangential stories that have nothing to do with the main story of the films. Everyone one of those could be turned into a film. There was an idea about using R2-D2 and C3PO in a feature, or Han Solo's adventures. I suppose you could invent things forever, but I don't think anything concrete was too seriously considered."

According to Kurtz, the possibility of a 3rd trilogy diminished when Lucas veered from his treatment to create RotJ. The original tale he mapped out didn't feature Ewoks or a 2nd Death Star, and it culminated in the death of Han Solo. Leia parted ways with Luke to lead those who survived her home planet's destruction.

The most critical change, however, was incorporating what would have been the climax of Ep 9, a showdown between Luke and the Emperor.

"The idea was that the Emperor would be hinted at and maybe seen occasionally but there wouldn't be a final confrontation with him until the 9th story." says Kurtz, who ended his association with Lucas after Empire, patrially because he was displeased with the aforementioned revisions.

(end)

Wonder if I should make this a separate post so others can see it and respond to it.
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While browsing on here a while back Im sure something similar was posted, you do feel in hindsight a lot of issues and plot points were squeezed in to the film and maybe suffered because of it.

The weakness I find in this are the Jabba palace scenes and from the end of Speeder Bike chase to the Vader/Luke scenes on the platform they hold the film up with an exception for a few scenes such as Luke and Leia discussing their parents are side-tracking from the main story issues of the trilogy eg Luke Vader and the fall of the Empire, and they make it a lesser film than Star Wars and Empre Strikes Back.
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i personally believe, which can be backed up by rolling stone mag and the making of star wars, and the numerous scripts published before empire, that star wars itself was only supposed to be an episodic adventure series much like indiana jones and that lucas changed it by making vader lukes father. gary kurtz kinda confirms this by saying they couldve made movies about any number of things featured in star wars. thats where we get the 12 part saga thing, because it was supposed to be more like a serial than what it ended up being.
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Originally posted by: Han Solo VS Indiana Jones
I enjoy ROTJ to this day, though I'm a little offset by the scenes where Carrie Fisher looks really out of it and sports what looks like smeared eye liner.


I like her like that...she looks like a dirty slut there Hubba Hubba

Hang on...what scene are you talking about???


I'm on about the scene where the Ewok has just stolen the speeder...I dunno...I'm a little out of it tonight



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If he intended it to be an underealized conclusion following two of the greatest films in American Film history, then ya, it was what it was meant to be.

Otherwise, it was just him trying to get too cute after the darker tone of ESB. He needed the darker tone in ROTJ for the first half, because Vader's redemption and Leia and Han's love would have brightened the ending. We didn't need fuzzy creatures and slowly paced romps in the woods. Let the great story tell itself, and don't treat the audience like 6 year olds. We promise we won't cry, we didn't during ESB.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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ON THE COMMENTARY TRACK TO ROTJ I BELIEVE IT WAS LUCAS SAYS THAT HE HAD ALWAYS PLANNED ON THE ORIGINAL DEATHSTAR FROM ANH TO MAKE TO THE END OF ROTJ, BUT HE CHANGED BECAUSE HE WASN'T SURE IF THERE WOULD BE ANY MORE SW MOVIES AFTER ANH.

"I'VE GROWN TIRED OF ASKING, SO THIS WILL BE THE LAST TIME..."
The Mangler Bros. Psycho Dayv Armchaireviews Notes on Suicide

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Originally posted by: theredbaron

- Lando just being forgiven without really redeeming himself with some valiant deed beforehand (just a casual reference to the stunt he pulled at the Battle of Tanaab) - perhaps having him sacrifice himself in a warrior's death for atonement?


I always got the impression that Lando risking his life and giving up his entire life to save Leia, Chewie, and the droids to be a valiant deed of atonement.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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In EU lore Lando attained said atonement by dressing up as a guard and doing some under-cover work in Jabba's palace. He "took one for the team" with the fat 9-breasted dancing woman, if you know what I'm talkin' about.

Actually, I made that up. But now you're picturing Lando with a fat 9-breasted dancing woman. Perv.

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Originally posted by: Hardcore Legend
If he intended it to be an underealized conclusion following two of the greatest films in American Film history, then ya, it was what it was meant to be.

Otherwise, it was just him trying to get too cute after the darker tone of ESB. He needed the darker tone in ROTJ for the first half, because Vader's redemption and Leia and Han's love would have brightened the ending. We didn't need fuzzy creatures and slowly paced romps in the woods. Let the great story tell itself, and don't treat the audience like 6 year olds. We promise we won't cry, we didn't during ESB.


Sadly, about 22 years too late. I wonder How much the Cute and cuddly is influenced by the media of the times. This was the generation that brought us Elmo, after all.
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While ROTJ has some great scenes it, I'm not going to lie: As a kid, the only reason I took any liking to it was the fact that it was 'cleaner' and 'newer' than the other two films. As I grew up, I realized just HOW much better the first two were, especially ESB. Since the restorations of the original source materials to make the films crystal clear and crisp, ROTJ is loosing it's standing more and more.

I ranked it below ROTS, something I thought I'd never do of an OT film from a PT film. And if ANH did get THAT good after the jumping off point at Mos Eisley, ROTS just might have pulled ahead of it.

We often forget how slow and muddled the beginning of Star Wars was from the point the droids leave the Tantive and end up at Ben's place. From a film study point of view, that kind of pacing is generally the kiss of death for a film. And don't forget, George had even more exposition of Luke as a teen in the desert before the studio laughed at him.

But don't get this criticism confused. I love all Star Wars films more than most films. But I'm also realistic about them. ESB, in my opinion was probably the 4th or 5th best movie made in the history of American cinema. So, for ROTJ to be such a let down is absolutely a failure.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Originally posted by: Hardcore Legend
While ROTJ has some great scenes it, I'm not going to lie: As a kid, the only reason I took any liking to it was the fact that it was 'cleaner' and 'newer' than the other two films. As I grew up, I realized just HOW much better the first two were, especially ESB. Since the restorations of the original source materials to make the films crystal clear and crisp, ROTJ is loosing it's standing more and more.

I ranked it below ROTS, something I thought I'd never do of an OT film from a PT film. And if ANH did get THAT good after the jumping off point at Mos Eisley, ROTS just might have pulled ahead of it.

We often forget how slow and muddled the beginning of Star Wars was from the point the droids leave the Tantive and end up at Ben's place. From a film study point of view, that kind of pacing is generally the kiss of death for a film. And don't forget, George had even more exposition of Luke as a teen in the desert before the studio laughed at him.

But don't get this criticism confused. I love all Star Wars films more than most films. But I'm also realistic about them. ESB, in my opinion was probably the 4th or 5th best movie made in the history of American cinema. So, for ROTJ to be such a let down is absolutely a failure.


I'm always torn on the issue of the pacing in the original Star Wars. Part of me agrees that it's a bit slow to get started and wonders if I only put up with it out of nostalgic purposes, and that I know it will pick up. But the other part of me says it's pretty good, and it's interesting enough to keep people involved. Besides, it worked in Hidden Fortress...

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I think SW is just right(maybe its my bias) but there to me is always something happening to keep my interest,and feel it is paced correctly yes there slower bits but it builds up, and is the only SW film I personally watch more than any other.
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There's part of me that wished he didn't end the OT so prematurely. I suppose I wish it was more like an 'Original Serial' rather than a Trilogy. These things are probably destined to reduce in quality over time, however - like the Bond films (well, it wasn't a steady decline, but hit or miss) or Star Trek.
MTFBWY. Always.

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I'll have to retype the whole article since I can't seem to find it online anywhere. (My friend gave me the article and I can't believe I still have it.) Later today I'll try and post it.